After what milestone should you be able to call yourself an expert at this game?

[mr_yogurt]

Recently, I did my first Eve landing and return (yay!) and since I was doing it on a livestream, they tried to tell me I have skills (I don't). But it did get me thinking, after what milestone can you call yourself an expert and not sound excessively cocky?

Also, to those of you who have done an eve landing and return, how did it go? How much of a fail was it?

Edited March 3, 2014 by mr_yogurt

[Spartwo]

Landed on every body.

[Whackjob]

If you can burn six hundred seventy thousand units of fuel just to put a five pound paperweight in orbit.

[Jouni]

10000 hours of hard work. After a few hundred hours, you may start thinking that you know something, but after a few thousand hours, you realize you don't.

[jfull]

I'd say it isn't any one thing. You have to either be amazing at a few aspects of the game, or a bit above competent at everything.

[regex]

As far as being an expert, I'd probably say anyone who has played bone-stock for at least 200~300 hours. After that you've mastered the basics and can feel confident doing almost anything and not look like an idiot while giving advice.

Also, to those of you who have done an eve landing and return, how did it go? How much of a fail was it?

I built a lander for a grand tour, tested it extensively, and then never used it. It was about 60 tons all told and could return to orbit from about 1km altitude on Eve. I've put heavier payloads around Jool from Kerbin so I didn't feel like I needed to prove to myself that I could do the whole thing in one go and not just Hyperedit the lander into Eve orbit for testing. It took a lot of testing to get something that could make that landing and return, though. I think my biggest issue was landing gear breaking and figuring out the ladder pattern to use.

[Taki117]

I consider someone an expert if they can reliably go to another planet, land, and return. (This does not include Eve or Tylo) Like if you can transfer to Duna, land and return without too much of an issue then I would consider you an expert because it involves everything you would ever need to know.

[Deathsoul097]

I consider someone an expert if they can reliably go to another planet, land, and return. (This does not include Eve or Tylo) Like if you can transfer to Duna, land and return without too much of an issue then I would consider you an expert because it involves everything you would ever need to know.

Well whadaya know! I'm an expert in at least one person's books!

As a more on topic note: I would say probably around the same, considering I myself haven't even landed on everything yet. (Simply because I keep getting drawn to the stuff that's really far away or has an atmosphere, so mostly laythe, eve, kerbin and duna.)

[Arran]

I logged now about 700+ hours on KSP, landed about everywhere of the stock planets in vanilla KSP and Modded, and toying now with usermade planets, and i'm still learning stuff.

I think i finnaly can say i'm n00b off and can say i'm expierenced now ..

The day i can calculate DeltaV, understand TWR and what relation ISP has to it all without mods that do that for me, and actually grasp all the info i getting from various sources, then i start considering myself expert status

Edited March 3, 2014 by Arran

[AletzN1]

I'd say round trip to Duna, or Landing on every celestial body. (1-way trip)

[LordQ]

I would actually say a person should be called an expert once they've mastered docking. I was able to land and return from other planets long before I learned docking.

[Vanamonde]

When you stop worrying about how good you are in relation to other players?

[-Gamah]

An expert at this game? The ability to unquestionably land on and return from the mun or minmus in the vanilla version of the game.

[Hodo]

Not an expert of KSP, but I am an elitist and pretty close to an expert on SSTOs in FAR. But I am working on becoming more.

[SkyRender]

I actually have a scale of KSP mastery I cooked up a while back, based on the Dwarf Fortress skill level system.

Rank 15: Dabbling Player

Notes: Brand new to the game. Don't know anything about anything yet. At this point, getting the capsule to land safely after you've ignited the engines is a huge achievement.

Rank 14: Novice Player

Notes: At this point, you can usually salvage the command pod without too much trouble when things go wrong. And things still go wrong a lot.

Rank 13: Adequate Player

Notes: At last you can handle a sub-orbital hop and live to tell about it! Still having some problems with getting to orbit, but baby steps and all that.

Rank 12: Competent Player

Notes: Once you've successfully attained orbit, you can be called competent. It's not exactly an irrelevant accomplishment!

Rank 11: Skilled Player

Notes: By this point, you've started experimenting with getting more fuel into orbit, and are working on your orbital mechanics. Launches should start feeling a lot more smooth.

Rank 10: Proficient Player

Notes: This rank is notable for being able to make a proper Munar or Minmus encounter. Possibly not getting BACK from it safely, but you can't be expected to get everything right away.

Rank 9: Talented Player

Notes: You're good enough now that you can get out to the Mun, get into a stable orbit around it, and maybe even land... sorta. Crashing still counts as landing, right?

Rank 8: Adept Player

Notes: It takes some finnangeling, but you've got this whole "land on another celestial body" thing down now! Getting off it isn't too hard either, as it turns out, and getting back to Kerbin... well, that's doable.

Rank 7: Expert Player

Notes: Refining your techniques, you're able to get out to the Mun or Minmus efficiently, circularize properly, and make an Apollo-style landing without too much of a headache. Getting back from either body is no problem.

Rank 6: Professional Player

Notes: Getting to orbit isn't a problem, and the Kerbin system bends to your will (ie. you can get anywhere in it and do anything in it without problems). Interplanetary operations and more complex orbital operations might still be a bit hard, though...

Rank 5: Accomplished Player

Notes: At last, the art of interplanetary missions! It's a bit rough just now, and you're wasting a lot of delta-V getting things done, but you get the gist of how it's done now... mostly. At least you can get to other planets and stay around them.

Rank 4: Great Player

Notes: Your interplanetary technique has gotten better! Far less wasted fuel now, and landing is no problem on any of the bodies (except maybe Tylo; hardly anyone can handle that even at this stage of skill!). Getting back to Kerbin is generally doable, as long as you have enough fuel.

Rank 3: Master Player

Notes: Functionally speaking, you can get anywhere in the KSP solar system. Likely some things are still quite challenging (like getting on and off Tylo, or Eve), but overall you have a solid grasp of the game. Likely you have some pretty glaring weak points in your skillset in spite of that.

Rank 2: High Master Player

Notes: Certain aspects of the game can still trip you up (probably spaceplanes and/or docking; most have problems with one or the other), but other than that you have the game mastered and are thoroughly capable of just about any task you can think up. You may well quickload a few times during not-quite-routine missions, but usually you don't need that unless you're trying to get an absolutely perfect maneuver done.

Rank 1: Grand Master Player

Notes: Not much about KSP still flummoxes you. Orbital maneuvers are easy, getting to orbit is easy, missions almost always go off without a hitch, etc. Maybe some reliance on quicksaving and quickloading, but it's not really necessary for you.

Rank A: Legendary Player

Notes: Absolutely nothing is challenging to you about Kerbal Space Program. Getting to orbit is an afterthought. Planning missions is relatively quick and painless, and always works out right. Quicksave and quickload are completely unnecessary outside of bug avoidance. You are one with the Kerbal Space Program.

Rank S: Ultimate Player

Notes: You're taking things above and beyond the norm. Even the legendary players are awestruck by your skill. Challenges on the forums and Reddit don't even faze you. Complex mega-missions like grand tours are a breeze. Very few players ever reach this level of skill.

So going by those titles, I guess a player hits Expert level when they're able to run missions in the Kerbin system without problems.

[TerLoki]

I think I'm one of the weird ones. Docking is pretty easy for me, to the point where only weirdly balanced or light loads pose any real problem and I will GLADLY dock four components together in orbit rather than launch the whole 38 ton payload in one shot. Yet I can't make a spaceplane to save my life and have only ever successfully landed manually on Minmus. Twice. I've been playing since at least 0.17.

Edited March 3, 2014 by TerLoki

[Dodgey]

I don't think you can ever call yourself an expert. You have to be called it by your pears. I would never call myself an expert, it just seems arrogant. I don't mean to offend just my personal opinion and I don't judge anyone who does call themselves an expert.

Again not judging.

[mr_yogurt]

When you stop worrying about how good you are in relation to other players?

You've got it wrong. When that happens you can call yourself an expert at LIFE.

[quantumpion]

Being an expert isn't about doing some particular task. Anyone can watch a youtube video or follow step-by-step instructions to accomplish a particular mission. Being an expert means having an in-depth understanding of the underlying mechanics combined with sufficient practical experience to apply them.

[Geschosskopf]

But it did get me thinking, after what milestone can you call yourself an expert and not sound excessively cocky?

The basic game mechanics are extremely simple. All you do is build something that can get off the ground, go somewhere, and come back. If you can get just to Mun, you can get anywhere else. You don't have to change anything you do. All you have to do is build a rocket with enough fuel and thrust for the job, differing only in degree, not in fundamentals, from going to Mun. The only real difference between going to Mun and going interplanetary is that you can go to Mun anytime the mood hits you but you have to wait on transfer windows to go elsewhere.

So, "expertise" in the design, construction, and flying ships aspects of the game (which is most of its aspects) comes quickly. This means that being an "expert in KSP" is either nothing to brag about, or requires something more than just being able to build a ship for a specific job. IOW, Eve landings, Tylo landings, whatever, don't qualify because they're just MOTS as going to Mun.

Therefore, IMHO true expertise in KSP can only come from being a master at efficient navigation. That is, knowing all the tricks of the orbital mechanics trade so you can do amazingly complex missions with 200 units of fuel and 1 solar panel. Anybody can use brute force and ignorance to do the job; the pros do it with way less and make it look easy in the process. This is the only real arena for "mad skilz" in this simple little game, and those skills are cerebral, not twitchy.

[1D-1()T]

Being an expert isn't about doing some particular task. Anyone can watch a youtube video or follow step-by-step instructions to accomplish a particular mission. Being an expert means having an in-depth understanding of the underlying mechanics combined with sufficient practical experience to apply them.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Or, another way of putting it, but heading to the same end, is when you can pioneer a new area in the game. Either through experimentation, or through re-applying skills you already have in this new context, and then to refine these techniques, until they work well.

Hate to put the spotlight on you Geschosskopf, but you make a good demonstration of my point. Not that long ago planes were extremely rare on Duna, maybe nuclear powered things that were more like rockets. Geschosskopf created, by both experimentation and use of prior knowledge, a solar/kethane powered hybrid aircraft, which brought aviation to Duna.

So, to me, those who find a new problem, that has its own unique challenges, and can find a solution that not only works, but is elegant, are the real experts of KSP.

[timsfitz]

Well I don't consider myself arrogant for saying I'm an expert. With 1500 hours in vanilla Kerbal I ought to be. Ive returned from landing Kerbals from everywhere but Eve. Docking is a joke. SSTOs are easy and fun. Found most of the Easter eggs. Yeah, this NASA mission is going to be easy. Looking forward to it though

[SkyRender]

I have to admit, I compiled that list back when I did mostly out of frustration at the relatively low bar that had been set at the time for success in the game. It's been a long time since then. I stopped even caring about how good I am at the game compared to others a long time ago, some time between the long wait for 0.19 and the shorter one for 0.20. Didn't even bother with a signature banner until recently, and even then I mostly made it as an "eh why not?" sort of thing. I just play the game for fun these days.

[milosh]

Having a station or colony on every planet in the system. If you can manage this efficiently you are a true expert not only in space travelling but also in building stuff and calculating delta V - that's the goal I've set for myself

[SkyHook]

I actually have a scale of KSP mastery I cooked up a while back, based on the Dwarf Fortress skill level system.

So going by those titles, I guess a player hits Expert level when they're able to run missions in the Kerbin system without problems.

By this system, I would call myself a rank 2 player. The question is not IF I will go to a place, but how and in how many phases. I can do anything that needs to be done to accomplish a mission, but I am prone to being rusty in some skills. I don't use some skills, so I lose them. I think that mastery has a building component to it too. Simple rockets can be grasped in the span of a week, but a space shuttle, an SSTO, a grand tour ship, or a reusable ship are completely different challenges. Mastering orbital mechanics is not the only hurdle to becoming a "master." Oh, and Dodgey makes a good point. The title should be GIVEN, not proclaimed. And I would like to add that masters come in two Flavors: Master Builders and Master Pilots