3 parts away from stock Space Shuttles

[MKI]

There are really 3 parts needed to make a effective Space Shuttle using stock parts, without difficult workarounds.

1. High powered, semi efficient, high gimbal engine- Currently the highest gimbal range offered in the game is only 3 degrees. This is a far cry from the NASA Shuttle Designs which had 10 degrees of gimbal thrust vectoring. This engine design should be fairly effective in lower atmospheres but weaker in a vacuum than is counterparts. Obviously the High gimbal, and high thrust are the engines primary advantage. With its lower fuel efficiency, size and weight keeping it from being a better complete choice for vacuum landings.

Projected stats:(non final, only a starting point)

Radial size: small(same sizes as the t-30, and t-45's)

Cost: 2500(even though this stat isn't used yet, RAPIERS are 5900, and LV-Ns are 1700)

Mass: 2(only .25 tons less than a LV-N, .50 tons heavier than the t-45s!)

Max Temp: 3600(same as most other engines)

Tolerance: 12(higher than most other engines, on par with LV-Ns)

Thrust: 185(Less than the t-45's, but more than aerospikes)

Isp:

Atm: 330

Vac: 350

This will put this engine above both the t-30, and t-45 in terms of Fuel Efficiency in the lower atmosphere, but only as effective as a skipper in orbit.

Gimbal Range:

7.5

This isn't as much as a NASA Shuttle, but in my own personal test 7.5 is Doable for most medium sized Space Shuttle Designs. It can be lowered accordingly, but this is the main selling point of this engine, so it must be high enough to be able to lift asymmetric launch vehicles into orbits without major issues with slight variations between the center of Lift and Center of thrust. These should be able to get a Shuttle off the launch pad and stay on target for the whole flight until orbit insertion burn, all without a player needing to change the angle of the engine in VAB/SPH or make compensations for the asymmetric design.(such as spamming RCS thrusters or secondary engines to provide extra control against flips.)

2. Rocket fuel Filled Half MK3 tanks(ya know the shuttle bay shape ones)

This is a pretty basic idea, that exists in many forms among mod packs so i wont post stats. The main objective is obviously give a Shuttle some inline fuel for orbital insertions without part clipping or forcing them to put OMS(Orbital Maneuvering system) engines, which could be done anyway. The objective of these parts is to make making a Shuttle EASIER, and this part isn't difficult to design or implement. These can easily be overlooked if one uses secondary OMS engines, but a basic inline supply of fuel can make designs much easier for a newer player.

3. a Medium Size Cargo Bay(should be size of MK3 jet fuel tanks)

Having cargo bays with doors might be to much to ask, but the Shuttle Isn't much more than a glorified 3 man launch system without a cargo bay. Players can easily design their own using already implemented stock parts, but again these changes are to make a Space Shuttle more convenient and easier to build for the average player, and still have a function beyond bragging rights. This also keeps part counts down and functional bay doors (a la B9 pack) keep things looking good.

These changes are meant to make building a Shuttle slightly different and challenging than a normal stack and go rocket but not more demanding than SSTO designs. These parts also make building a successful shuttle more efficient than the easiest shuttle builds players are currently able to build(the easiest have little to no cargo capability). And just like real life shuttles, they are less efficient than well built rockets and require more flying skill from the player.

The key lies in the high engine Gimbal, with them implemented alone Shuttle Designs can really take off without massive headaches.

[Wahgineer]

For an idea of what a balanced shuttle engine would look like, try the Shuttle engines pack.

I have to agree, these parts would be very nice to have. But before these parts get implemented, it would make sense to perform the art pass/rescale that has been talked about regarding the plane parts so far.

[m1sz]

I like the idea =)

[DaRocketCat]

For an idea of what a balanced shuttle engine would look like, try the Shuttle engines pack.

I have to agree, these parts would be very nice to have. But before these parts get implemented, it would make sense to perform the art pass/rescale that has been talked about regarding the plane parts so far.

Pretty much.

While your ideas are nice and could be implemented, an entire remake of all the plane parts is in order.

[Red Iron Crown]

You should check your part pricing in game, the Wiki is not accurate in this regard. The LV-N is 8300 IIRC.

[MKI]

@Red Iron Crown, i was just referencing to the wiki and didn't notice the game prices have been changed. Thanks for pointing it out.

I haven't heard of a plane part redesign anywhere, who has said such things

[CaptRobau]

Devs have mentioned redoing all the spaceplane parts and adding a more realistic aerodynamic model, but never anything concrete. Personally I can't blame them for postponing that in light of doing other more important updates, as the spaceplane parts were only added because a modder became a dev and there were decent parts out there at that time. So spaceplanes were more of an afterthought. And a mod like FAR handles aerodynamics very well and shuttle mods like KSO or Porkworks MK2 Refit mod have added wonderful stock-like airplane/spaceplane parts. I think eventually we'll see an update dealing with spaceplanes, but at the moment they're focussing on stuff that mods can't handle well or handle awkwardly, like contracts and the like.

[DaRocketCat]

Everything plane related has remained mostly untouched since .15, so yeah it's in pretty dire need of a revamp once the devs get some free time on their hands.

[travis575757]

Yeah these parts are defiantly needed, i had a post like this a month or so ago, it would also be great if a larger SRB was added for shuttles too. Right now i can make a descent shuttle with part clipping in editor and stuff. I only managed to make one ugly one that could actually hold cargo. All my space shuttles were a vanburan design though with a rocket on the main fuel tank ecept my best one that only has engines on the shuttle. It kind of stink with how srb's always burn out by 15000 meters.

[Iansoreta]

There are really 3 parts needed to make a effective Space Shuttle using stock parts, without difficult workarounds.

1. High powered, semi efficient, high gimbal engine- Currently the highest gimbal range offered in the game is only 3 degrees. This is a far cry from the NASA Shuttle Designs which had 10 degrees of gimbal thrust vectoring. This engine design should be fairly effective in lower atmospheres but weaker in a vacuum than is counterparts. Obviously the High gimbal, and high thrust are the engines primary advantage. With its lower fuel efficiency, size and weight keeping it from being a better complete choice for vacuum landings.

Projected stats:(non final, only a starting point)

Radial size: small(same sizes as the t-30, and t-45's)

Cost: 2500(even though this stat isn't used yet, RAPIERS are 5900, and LV-Ns are 1700)

Mass: 2(only .25 tons less than a LV-N, .50 tons heavier than the t-45s!)

Max Temp: 3600(same as most other engines)

Tolerance: 12(higher than most other engines, on par with LV-Ns)

Thrust: 185(Less than the t-45's, but more than aerospikes)

Isp:

Atm: 330

Vac: 350

This will put this engine above both the t-30, and t-45 in terms of Fuel Efficiency in the lower atmosphere, but only as effective as a skipper in orbit.

Gimbal Range:

7.5

This isn't as much as a NASA Shuttle, but in my own personal test 7.5 is Doable for most medium sized Space Shuttle Designs. It can be lowered accordingly, but this is the main selling point of this engine, so it must be high enough to be able to lift asymmetric launch vehicles into orbits without major issues with slight variations between the center of Lift and Center of thrust. These should be able to get a Shuttle off the launch pad and stay on target for the whole flight until orbit insertion burn, all without a player needing to change the angle of the engine in VAB/SPH or make compensations for the asymmetric design.(such as spamming RCS thrusters or secondary engines to provide extra control against flips.)

2. Rocket fuel Filled Half MK3 tanks(ya know the shuttle bay shape ones)

This is a pretty basic idea, that exists in many forms among mod packs so i wont post stats. The main objective is obviously give a Shuttle some inline fuel for orbital insertions without part clipping or forcing them to put OMS(Orbital Maneuvering system) engines, which could be done anyway. The objective of these parts is to make making a Shuttle EASIER, and this part isn't difficult to design or implement. These can easily be overlooked if one uses secondary OMS engines, but a basic inline supply of fuel can make designs much easier for a newer player.

3. a Medium Size Cargo Bay(should be size of MK3 jet fuel tanks)

Having cargo bays with doors might be to much to ask, but the Shuttle Isn't much more than a glorified 3 man launch system without a cargo bay. Players can easily design their own using already implemented stock parts, but again these changes are to make a Space Shuttle more convenient and easier to build for the average player, and still have a function beyond bragging rights. This also keeps part counts down and functional bay doors (a la B9 pack) keep things looking good.

These changes are meant to make building a Shuttle slightly different and challenging than a normal stack and go rocket but not more demanding than SSTO designs. These parts also make building a successful shuttle more efficient than the easiest shuttle builds players are currently able to build(the easiest have little to no cargo capability). And just like real life shuttles, they are less efficient than well built rockets and require more flying skill from the player.

The key lies in the high engine Gimbal, with them implemented alone Shuttle Designs can really take off without massive headaches.

Great idea about stock version of space shuttle parts, but with the fact that the only highest gimbal range available for engine is about 3 degrees, which is still not enough for typical space shuttle or shuttle derived design(AKA Shuttle Derived Launch Vehicle). I already lost patience waiting for developers to implement rocket engine with reasonably high gimbal range, so I modified stock parts for engine with efficiency of the SDLV and high gimbal range, because I'm not downloading mods, but to keep modified parts retain its stock-feel with enhancements.

[FleshJeb]

It kind of stink with how srb's always burn out by 15000 meters.

If you lower the thrust in the VAB. They'll burn longer.

[MKI]

With the next update bringing reusability and some spaceplane part updates. Hopefully this means we will get the more parts dealing with spaceplanes. Especially a Shuttle like engine, or at least some way to build more effective asymmetric shuttle systems.

[Sky_walker]

With the next update bringing reusability and some spaceplane part updates.

We don't know if 0.24 will bring any parts for space planes.

Intern was working on fixes and changes to the existing parts and just started planning on a new stuff.

Don't expect anything, cause expectations lead to disappointment.

[BudgetHedgehog]

We don't know if 0.24 will bring any parts for space planes.

I believe it was Max who said in a Squadcast that Hugo is working on the plane parts. Granted, there might not be any NEW parts, but so far, all devnotes have pointed towards Hugo working on the existing Mk- series parts.

[Winter Man]

If you're adding Mk.3 parts, I'd say a fourth would be a Mk.3 fuselage-sized docking port.

[Sky_walker]

I believe it was Max who said in a Squadcast that Hugo is working on the plane parts.

Look up last 4 dev blog entries. It's all there.

Granted, there might not be any NEW parts, but so far, all devnotes have pointed towards Hugo working on the existing Mk- series parts.

Yes, I pointed that out in my own post.

To quote the man himself:

i’ve been working on the enhancement of several already existing pieces

or

I also started the process of improving the aesthetics and behavior of several existing pieces inside the game

It's all there.

So this:

Hopefully this means we will get the more parts dealing with spaceplanes.

is a baseless hope.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Kylorin]

I agree on these parts, they would be nice to have. I'd use the cargo bay for deploying sattelites.

[Blind Dead McJones]

I know there's a mod that has cargo bay stuff (possibly B9 aerospace, and you could probably jury-rig something with Infernal Robotics). That said, I think that a cargo bay would be incredibly helpful in stock.

[CaptainTurbomuffin]

HOw you like this? The thrust controller would help you for better effectivity, with no balancer thrust vector components wasted. I'd love to use shuttles like that.

[Red Iron Crown]

HOw you like this? The thrust controller would help you for better effectivity, with no balancer thrust vector components wasted. I'd love to use shuttles like that.

Check out Throttle Controlled Avionics. It does differential throttle for attitude control and handles asymmetric engine layouts like a champ.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Red Iron Crown
Added link.

[prophet_01]

Shuttles will never be of a great use since the lower stages need to be bigger because of the additional weight and efficency loss of the engines (crossing vectors). U cant recover the bosters. So its not only more fuel used but also higher costs for droped engines.

Shuttles may become efficient if we are allowed to recover stuff beyond the 2.5 km range.

I am hoping for contracts that force me to bring satelites back to ksc for repairs or some sort. Everything my shuttles do currently is bringing back big science stuff like labs and arrangements of instruments, containets and bays.