Wait, new players start with Mechjeb??

[Red Iron Crown]

SAS is much weaker automation than OP's limit for what they can understand new players using. Observe the diagram:

http://i.imgur.com/uoOpNqB.png

In other words, holding the same direction and flying to orbit for you are two entirely different things.

Just different degrees of automation. People have different ideas of how much automation they want to use, and that applies to beginning players, too. The red line in your diagram is in a different spot for everyone, and the arguments the OP makes apply just as well to all of them.

I don't see why a new player should avoid MechJeb. If they like building and mission planning but don't like flying, why wouldn't they use it? If they want to use some features but not others, why not? The idea that you should be some sort of elite pilot or even a good pilot at all before trying MechJeb is silly, IMO. Piloting skill is not the end-all be-all for all players; it is only one aspect of a multifaceted game. MechJeb makes the game more enjoyable for those who care less about piloting.

[Sirrobert]

And the trophy for missing the most epic sarcasm of today goes to....

Well first thought is: this post im quoting is almost word for word that of the op which seems questionable to me. 2nd is to each his or her own on how to play.

Third autopilot namely mechjeb is NOT automatic easy mode.

[NeoMorph]

I tend to use MJ to launch my rockets and then afterwards I use manoever editor to fine tune my nodes.

90% of my MJ usage though is grabbing the information I need to fly my rocket. I do rendezvous manually... I do docking manually. I plan out my flight plans manually. MJ is just a tool after all.

Even Apollo had an idiot savant computer after all.

[Uncle Mort]

MJ is putting a lander down on the Mun as I type this. It's the twelve biome I've visited in my current iteration of the game. Some were manual, most MJ. My choice.

When I first played KSP I couldn't get a rocket in orbit to save my life (or Jed's come to that) I installed MJ and let it do the work. I probably became too reliant on it and tended not to launch or land manually. When career mode came in I had to become more "hands on" because even with MJ installed it only came in incrementally. I now have no problem operating totally manually but I don't because MJ is so useful. Not only for taking over the boring tasks but aiding with info and manoeuvres.

Given the above, for someone who cannot get started I'd recommend installing MJ and playing sandbox until you catch on how it works. Then move to career and teach yourself manual operations step by step.

As to the OP, personally I feel it was more about self aggrandisement than getting a discussion going.

[TimMartland]

1. This has been discussed SO MUCH that its getting kind of boring.

2. I think MechJeb is a good way to start out. Its fun to start by blowing up rockets and generally failing, but after a while you want to achieve something and online guides can seem opaque as hell to new players who don't know how orbital transfers work. MechJeb is an excellent teacher as it allows you to hone your designing skills and watch as an expert pilot shows you how to do stuff. I learned the game from MechJeb and I think it in no way was detrimental to my experience - in fact, it helped me enjoy KSP to its full potential early on. I have learned how to do pretty much everything from it and can now pilot pretty much any mission, but I still keep it around.

I mean, what's up with interplanetary transfers? Seriously, I can't do it and I don't want to sit around with a calculator for an hour because I could be doing cool stuff instead!

[loppnessmonsta]

right now im playing completely vanilla but im seriously considering installing mechjeb again. there are some things i just suck at. like rendezvous. and some other things i can do but im not very efficient, like ascent path, and landing with any precision. and some things i flat out can't do, like know all the little stats for my ships.

but for me, a lot of the fun comes from the "did it myself" aspect. that's not as fun for some people. some people just want to build cool ****. or do other stuff entirely. its their game, their prerogative.

[CaptainKipard]

It's absolutely fascinating watching so many of you people get sidetracked from the topic. Please continue.

[HoustonDave]

I guess I don't get why some people would START with Mechjeb. Where's the fun in that? It seems to me KSP is about building things and testing stuff and generally learning the game for yourself. I'll never forget watching my rockets doing backflips when I first started. Now I have an entire fleet of rovers/landers/satellites etc. I get this game has a steep learning curve but why would I want an easy mode instant gratification autopilot that ruins the feeling of accomplishment? There's other games out there for that...

Thoughts?

New player here, so I'm your target audience, and I'm going to provide a couple of answers to your question instead of getting my back up or snarling.

1) I'm in my 40s with a full time job, wife, and kids. I started playing about 8 weeks ago.

2) Started vanilla career mode, watched Manley, read forums, figured out some basics.

3) Added Kerbal Engineer first week.

4) Added Mechjeb second week.

5) Reason #1 I think MJ was a reasonable move for me as a newbie is, I don't have the time to manually do the things I want to do in-game AND work AND take care of family obligations. With MJ I can spend an hour planning a mission and designing the equipment, launch, set a maneuver node, execute, and go help my kids do their homework. Check back a few minutes later to make sure MJ hasn't had a seizure, set up next maneuver, back to obligations. Repeat a few times. Check back 30 later, spend an hour exploring Duna "FOR SCIENCE" (!).

It allows me to play within the time I have available. Otherwise I couldn't play this game at all, frankly. And I really enjoy it.

6) I'm learning what MJ does and why, through its running commentary, and learning how I can do better than it. Many times I let it start a maneuver and, if I have time, take over and do it more efficiently. And I also tend to set up my own maneuvers now, rather than let MJ do it, because I have learned what it is doing and can do so better in some cases.

Simply put, there are good reasons for many players to use MJ early in the learning curve, but there are good reasons not to lean on it for everything too. It's just another flight tool at your disposal.

Edited March 24, 2014 by HoustonDave

[Freefly]

tldr: MechJeb is a tool and how you decide to utilize it to its maximum potential or abuse it as a crutch is independent of your competence and doesn't necessarily rob anyone of preferential fun that might unintentionally(?) come off as elitist.

Horse already beaten to oblivion, but I'd like to add to the many testimonials here that MJ, not only a useful tool for precise data, also act as an educator for people who would prefer to imitate without having to go through what they perceive as pointless failures. Thanks to first MJ opening my eyes to possibilities and raising my curiosity and then Scott Manley and a few other tutorials I was on the fast track to managing a space program instead of needlessly killing Kerbals.

I can screw it all up but still recover, slam on the brakes and land softly at 1m/s all while in IVA because I like the immersion.

...

I guess I don't get why some people would START with Mechjeb. Where's the fun in that? It seems to me KSP is about building things and testing stuff and generally learning the game for yourself. I'll never forget watching my rockets doing backflips when I first started. Now I have an entire fleet of rovers/landers/satellites etc. I get this game has a steep learning curve but why would I want an easy mode instant gratification autopilot that ruins the feeling of accomplishment? There's other games out there for that...

Piloting skill is not completely dependent of flight knowledge. Being able to squeeze a plane under the KSP building walkways in IVA or right a self designed stock Soyuz via vernier thrusters doesn't grant you the knowledge of gravity turn efficiency. MechJeb doesn't either, to a degree, but it opens a window for a curious mind to peer through.

Shortcuts aren't always bad and your preference for stumbling more for the truth is no better or worse than someone else's desire to stand on the shoulder of giants in order to speed up and obtain their own goals however it differs from yours. That's part of the beauty of KSP, you can go masochist and make it harder via FAR, kOS, RT, RSS, DRE, learn the intricacies and specifics for your custom design launcher/plane and maximize your dV to the T, or you can download a Lego-esque launcher system pre-built for a variety of missions on stock Kerbin and leave copious amount of debris all over the Kerbol system.

[LostElement]

I use mechjeb to check my delta V and looks at the Orbit and Surface tabs. Other than that, I dont't use it.

[LomasAtorian]

...you can go masochist and make it harder via FAR, kOS, RT, RSS, DRE...

The only way to fly is to abuse yourself to no end....absolutely a blast...pun somewhat intended.

[Hodo]

That's part of the beauty of KSP, you can go masochist and make it harder via FAR, kOS, RT, RSS, DRE, learn the intricacies and specifics for your custom design launcher/plane and maximize your dV to the T, or you can download a Lego-esque launcher system pre-built for a variety of missions on stock Kerbin and leave copious amount of debris all over the Kerbol system.

Not a masochist, I enjoy a challenge. Stock KSP is not challenging enough for me and obviously many others judging by the amount of users who use those exact mods you listed. MJ I find does not make it easier, it just is a tool, no more or less than KOS, KER or even the precise node tool.

[jwenting]

Wait, other players get to decide how someone should enjoy the game?

only correct comment.

[AlamoVampire]

And the trophy for missing the most epic sarcasm of today goes to....

sod off. i do not need an irritant like you to get me any more buggered up than I already am, so again, kindly turn around and sod off.

[Holo]

only correct comment.

None of the ones that actually answer the OP?

A: Why would I want an easy mode instant gratification autopilot that ruins the feeling of accomplishment?

B: Wait, other players get to decide how someone should enjoy the game?

The link there is rather tenuous. Much better comments would be:

B: It's not easy-mode instant gratification because...

B: It doesn't ruin the sense of accomplishment because...

[AlamoVampire]

As a staunch advocate of mechjeb i honestly feel 0% LESS accomplished by using an autopilot. Why? Simple: 1: i am an rc pilot and would love some automation in the experience. 2: i have flown a Cessna and autopilot was useful. 3: i have probably 2-3000 hours or more on flight sims and have flown transoceanic and even on a sim autopilot is a major asset. That said to those who naysay it: bugger off as your way aint our way as ours aint yours.

[darkmuminek]

I think there should be some kind of auto close/delete mechjeb discussion threads as every single one is the same and brings nothing. To sum it up:

1. Yes, people use MJ from the beginning, deal with it

2. Noone cares if you play KSP with your hands tied to a chair using only your feet and a Playstation One driving wheel.

3. Some people like challenge, some don't. Again, deal with it.

4. You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone on this forum. There are no good or bad opinions on MJ and any other mods.

5. It's a single player game. The way I play it doesn't affect your gameplay and vice versa.

[CaptainKipard]

i have flown a Cessna and autopilot was useful.

Hold on there. How exactly does a real autopilot compare to MJ? Is there some new technology I'm not aware of? I've used sims a bit before too and I'm not sure that tweaking your descent speed even comes close to the hand holding of MJ.

[Sirrobert]

Hold on there. How exactly does a real autopilot compare to MJ? Is there some new technology I'm not aware of? I've used sims a bit before too and I'm not sure that tweaking your descent speed even comes close to the hand holding of MJ.

Now I'm not a pilot, but I'm pritty sure modern planes can actually land purely on autopilot

[Red Iron Crown]

Super Hornets can land on a carrier automatically, IIRC. Supposedly the most difficult task a pilot can perform.

[Commander Zoom]

They can, in fact, land so precisely on autopilot that one model had to have a small amount of randomness programmed into it, because the planes were all touching down at exactly the same spot on the runway. (Have a look at the pavement by any bus stop for a hint at the result...)

[Red Iron Crown]

This thread is filled with terrible. Everybody justifying their MechJeb usage to the troll, it's just bad.

Sadly, I think you called it. OP hasn't posted in this thread since the first post, so it seems to me he wasn't interested in a discussion, just getting a rise out of people.

[Levelord]

Sadly, I think you called it. OP hasn't posted in this thread since the first post, so it seems to me he wasn't interested in a discussion, just getting a rise out of people.

I'm convinced it's probably a troll bait topic as well. OP hasn't replied and isn't interested in taking part in the discussion. I request a thread lock.

[Hodo]

Super Hornets can land on a carrier automatically, IIRC. Supposedly the most difficult task a pilot can perform.

We are not talking about the F/A-18E or even a F4 Phantom, hell we are talking about the Atlas rocket, or the Apollo rocket.

Mechjeb is about the technological level of the autopilot of the 1960s. God help you if you try to get it to land on anything while flying an aircraft.

But who am I kidding, 90% of you can't land an aircraft in KSP without parachutes anyway.

[Red Iron Crown]

Mechjeb is about the technological level of the autopilot of the 1960s. God help you if you try to get it to land on anything while flying an aircraft.

But who am I kidding, 90% of you can't land an aircraft in KSP without parachutes anyway.

Not to speak for the MechJeb devs, but it would seem to me that putting much effort into autopilot for aircraft would be wasted. I notice a high correlation between aircraft use and autopilot resistance.