The 7 Balance Points of engines in a Full Career Mode.

[Rakaydos]

How is that not making a model to be made obsolete?

[NERVAfan]

I don't necessarily see a problem with some engines becoming obsolete, but...

I really think the Mainsail and Skipper need a boost, even if the SLS ones do get nerfed. IMO the Mainsail should be 300 SL, 350 Vac and the Skipper should be 320 SL, 370 Vac like the LV-T30/45. Bigger engines shouldn't be less Isp than smaller ones IMO, clustering means more part count and worse game performance, so shouldn't be more efficient; and I don't think engines should lose performance, making existing designs useless, if it can be reasonably done without that.

[Tweeker]

How is that not making a model to be made obsolete?

an example:

lvt-30

early

wt thrust sea isp vac isp

1.3 200 300 350

modern

wt thrust sea isp vac isp

1.25 215 320 370

early

wt thrust sea isp vac isp

1.2 230 330 380

There is no model that exist solely to be made obsolete, instead one engine improves as you move up the tech tree.

[Jouni]

I really think the Mainsail and Skipper need a boost, even if the SLS ones do get nerfed. IMO the Mainsail should be 300 SL, 350 Vac and the Skipper should be 320 SL, 370 Vac like the LV-T30/45. Bigger engines shouldn't be less Isp than smaller ones IMO, clustering means more part count and worse game performance, so shouldn't be more efficient; and I don't think engines should lose performance, making existing designs useless, if it can be reasonably done without that.

The Mainsail is fine: it's supposed to be a fuel hog that produces way more thrust for its size than any other liquid engine of comparable tech level. It could also be cheaper than a similar amount of thrust produced by more efficient engines, as it's supposed to use cheaper fuel. I like to think that the Mainsail is the F-1 engine (6770+ kN, 260+/~300 s, 8.4 tonnes), while the Skipper is the space shuttle main engine (2279 kN, 366/452 s, 3.4 tonnes).

The Skipper, the LV-T30, and the LV-T45 should be balanced with each other in some way, as they are basically the same design. Having 320/370 seconds of Isp is fine, but in order to make the LV-909 and the Poodle more competitive, the vacuum engines should be cheaper for their thrust than the lower stage engines. And, as I have said, the Poodle should be made competitive with clusters of LV-909s.

[Tweeker]

Part of the consideration should be what role do you want the engine to play. In the poodle VS the LV-909 for example they really fill different rolls. they both have the same VAC ISP, but the poodle seems like it should be used as a last stage lifter. Whereas the LV-909 seems like it should be an orbital maneuvering engine. If use a poodle to change orbits you are shorting yourself about 2 tones of fuel VS a LV-909. To make the poodle better fit in it's roll as a final stage lifter it really needs more thrust, as opposed to a better TWR. To take it beyond the range of a cluster of LV-909s it needs at 400-500 thrust, and a slightly better TWR.

Another example of this is the LVT-30 & LVT-45 they are basically clones of each other, either one of the needs to go, or they need to be pushed farther apart so they have more of a Mainsail/Skipper relationship.maybe something like:

Tons Thrust TWR SEA VAC

ISP ISP

lvt-30 1.1 150 13.90 280 370

lvt-45 1.6 240 15.29 300 350

That sets them far enough apart in thrust and ISP that they have their own apparent roles.

[Rakaydos]

Part of the consideration should be what role do you want the engine to play. In the poodle VS the LV-909 for example they really fill different rolls. they both have the same VAC ISP, but the poodle seems like it should be used as a last stage lifter. Whereas the LV-909 seems like it should be an orbital maneuvering engine. If use a poodle to change orbits you are shorting yourself about 2 tones of fuel VS a LV-909. To make the poodle better fit in it's roll as a final stage lifter it really needs more thrust, as opposed to a better TWR. To take it beyond the range of a cluster of LV-909s it needs at 400-500 thrust, and a slightly better TWR.

Another example of this is the LVT-30 & LVT-45 they are basically clones of each other, either one of the needs to go, or they need to be pushed farther apart so they have more of a Mainsail/Skipper relationship.maybe something like:

Tons Thrust TWR SEA VAC

ISP ISP

lvt-30 1.1 150 13.90 280 370

lvt-45 1.6 240 15.29 300 350

That sets them far enough apart in thrust and ISP that they have their own apparent roles.

I prefer the stock rework's approach to the poodle- where it's a bigger, slightly more efficent version of the 909 cluster.

As for the LV30 vs 45, not having gimbal is a big deal as you start to put them into engine clusters to lift more massive rockets.

[Tinyboss]

I do want tech progression though. So the solution for me would be to allow upgrades in the R&D Department. Instead of new parts outclassing old, your science and money could be spent to raise the ISP for all engines across the board. Heck, you could have multiple upgrades for different things like engine thrust, electricity consumption/storage/generation, ASAS torque, RCS ISP, lighter materials, etc. A good one I think would be structural integrity which could go from .23 strengths up to .23.5 strengths.

I think a big problem with that approach is that it would become nearly impossible to share ship designs among different career games--if you send me a .craft file for a ship, it won't fly the same for me as it did for you, unless we have all the same relevant upgrades.

[Tweeker]

I prefer the stock rework's approach to the poodle- where it's a bigger, slightly more efficent version of the 909 cluster.

What are the stats of the poodle in this mod, so I have a better idea what you mean?

As for the LV30 vs 45, not having gimbal is a big deal as you start to put them into engine clusters to lift more massive rockets.

I'm not sure about this, I see the theory, but I don't think it holds up in practice. If this was really the case there would be gimbal-less Mainsails and Skippers. I think it is much more that the LVT-30 Is a hold over from the early days of KSP.

[Jouni]

I'm not sure about this, I see the theory, but I don't think it holds up in practice. If this was really the case there would be gimbal-less Mainsails and Skippers. I think it is much more that the LVT-30 Is a hold over from the early days of KSP.

People use gimbal-locked Mainsails and Skippers in boosters all the time, even though there are no other benefits for locking the gimbal. If there were gimbal-less Mainsails and Skippers that are also lighter, cheaper, and more powerful, people would use them a lot.

[Rakaydos]

What are the stats of the poodle in this mod, so I have a better idea what you mean?

"The Poodle has been rebalanced: mass of 1.75t, thrust of 160kN, ISP of 270-410. Higher ISP, lower TWR, but much lower engine mass fraction."

Changelog, first post, http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/75272-0-23-x-Stock-Rebalance-Project-v1-2-7-04-14

[makinyashikino]

I wouldnt step on the nerva's toes quite like that.

I don't really think that it would step on the NERVA's toes to add an early version,

Toe hivemind