Orbital Ring Space Station Challenge

[took]

Challenge: Build a space station that spans the entire orbit ring. Connect your pieces until they loop around. I think that the last one would be the hardest and would take some engineering to solve the problem of docking both backwards and forwards simultaneously.

So, I don't know if this is possible, but I think the lowest orbit around mun is like 4.5k, I'd probably start at 5k meters. I believe the game calculates that from the surface so for 2*Pi*r to be an accurate thing you need to include the radius of Mun...which is 200km if the wiki is right. So thats 2*pi*205km / length of vessel (not counting the loss in height from an angled orientation) = amount of connectable stations required.

So yeah...KSP multiplayer...a couple hundred people...should be possible...not a large scale thing at all, right?

Anyways good luck. Don't die out there...or forget to quicksave on the 99th station.

[zarakon]

impossible

[Pursuedtank]

The physics range in the game is only 2.5 km, nothing can be built bigger that this size. This challenge is unfortunately impossible. Besides imagine the part count on a craft that big.

[took]

Well, Minimus has 60km radius, so if your space ship consists of FEWEST parts possible (want to keep lag to a minimum) it's fairly easy to make a 100 meter Jumbomax satellite.

So like...3769 vessels...Yeah maybe that is impossible with the game engine being how it is.

- - - Updated - - -

The physics range in the game is only 2.5 km, nothing can be built bigger that this size. This challenge is unfortunately impossible. Besides imagine the part count on a craft that big.

I never specified it had to be a planetary space station. Any small asteroids capable of orbit?

[Pursuedtank]

I never specified it had to be a planetary space station. Any small asteroids capable of orbit?

The smallest planetry body that you are able to orbit is Gilly, which has an equatorial radius of 13000m, meaning that the craft would still go outside of physics range. None of the asteroids that have been added to the game have their own gravity, and so are impossible to orbit.

[took]

It is indeed impossible then. What happens when a ship goes outside the range? Any mods to increase physics range? I didn't mean for this challenge to turn into a questionnaire but you seem knowledgeable and these things aren't very highly searchable.

[Dust]

There is a mod ("Laser" something-or-other) that allows for greater physics draw distance. Manley had it running in - I believe - his older reusable space program series and had it out to at least 90km. That would get around the 2.5km limit issue.

However, the whole thing would need to continue rotating once per orbit, because if you're half done the CoM would be somewhere underneath the surface, and if rotation was stopped by time acceleration the trailing edge would collide with the planet body.

So I do think it's impossible.

[took]

Hey then...so with that mod...its possible to ATTEMPT, and then so it cold be possible with the right "oomph" and engineering (counteracting the CoM change via construction and thrusting), and the smallest object with SoI. So not a stock challenge, but...maybe?

[Pursuedtank]

There was a person that tried to build a straight craft, docking one long part to another, in a long line. They gave up before they got close to the 2.5 km range. I have no idea what would happen if you tried to do it, however I guess that it probably does the distance from the center of mass and so would just unload the craft as you moved 2.5 km from that point.

The lazor systems mod, among others has or had a feature that extends the physics range up to 100 km, however I don't know the feasibility of creating a craft that big, the insane amount of parts would probably stop your computer.

[took]

There was a person that tried to build a straight craft, docking one long part to another, in a long line. They gave up before they got close to the 2.5 km range. I have no idea what would happen if you tried to do it, however I guess that it probably does the distance from the center of mass and so would just unload the craft as you moved 2.5 km from that point.

The lazor systems mod, among others has or had a feature that extends the physics range up to 100 km, however I don't know the feasibility of creating a craft that big, the insane amount of parts would probably stop your computer.

Indeed, the lazor systems mod - the longest possible connecting station with as fewest parts as possible on each node, and a correcting engineering feature for the changing CoM would be required. Not to mention a powerful computer. I'm starting to back away from "impossible" and more like "LOL you need a 1000 people all working cooperatively to do it in a timely fashion, so forget it"

Edited April 13, 2014 by took

[Comwarrior]

One of the challenges i recently set out was to make a long noodle.

In one of the videos you can clearly see the noodle of lenght 300M bending AWAY from the planet due to the differences in gravitational pull caused by the slight differences in orbital speed and hights of the pieces.

In other words, even with the joint reinforcement thats now in 23.5 you wouldn't be able to go beyond 300M due to the speed differences over powering the magnetic pull of the docking ports...

[took]

One of the challenges i recently set out was to make a long noodle.

In one of the videos you can clearly see the noodle of lenght 300M bending AWAY from the planet due to the differences in gravitational pull caused by the slight differences in orbital speed and hights of the pieces.

In other words, even with the joint reinforcement thats now in 23.5 you wouldn't be able to go beyond 300M due to the speed differences over powering the magnetic pull of the docking ports...

Any possibility of using corrective thrusters? I'm not saying it's not an absolutely insane thing, but construction the station with those drifts in mind - calculations may be required (). And with the sole purpose of having fuel to burn to correct, or using ion engines with solar panels and pure fuel.

It's just a hypothetical discussion now, pretty much, don't take me too seriously or assume that I'm trying to push it. Haha.

[ihtoit]

There is a mod ("Laser" something-or-other) that allows for greater physics draw distance. Manley had it running in - I believe - his older reusable space program series and had it out to at least 90km. That would get around the 2.5km limit issue.

However, the whole thing would need to continue rotating once per orbit, because if you're half done the CoM would be somewhere underneath the surface, and if rotation was stopped by time acceleration the trailing edge would collide with the planet body.

So I do think it's impossible.

yes, it's the Lazor Systems mod - it has the nuclear bombs as well. It can extend physics range to 99km. I've had it working in .22, whether it works in .23 I've no idea.

[cantab]

I believe the lowest safe orbit around Gilly is 7 km up, so 20 km from the centre, giving a circumference of 126 km. The longest stock part currently is the S1 SRB, at 15 metres. You would thus need 8,400 of them to make your ring. Maybe not completely impossible, but probably beyond most computers.

So you're going to need mod parts as well as modding the physics range.

Remember, it's generally good to have a crack at the Challenge yourself before posting it here, to get a feel as to whether it's feasible.

[lajoswinkler]

Even if it was possible to exceed the rendering range, it could not be built. Rigid rings are inherently unstable and will crash down to the planet.

[took]

Rigid rings unstable? In KSP or the reality of space design? I imagine some advanced Newtonian mechanics textbook could work something like that out, I'm just curious where it was worked out for you / in example.

[cantab]

In reality they are, and it was proven by Isaac Newton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_theorem

That said, the instability isn't "ball on a hill" unstable, but "ball on a table" unstable. If it moves, you can push it back. Of course pushing it back without breaking it up may be easier said than done.

Edited April 13, 2014 by cantab

[took]

In reality they are, and it was proven by Isaac Newton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_theorem

That said, the instability isn't "ball on a hill" unstable, but "ball on a table" unstable. If it moves, you can push it back. Of course pushing it back without breaking it up may be easier said than done.

Very cool link, I am familiar with the shell theorem, but I read the wiki anyhow. I'm not sure if the ring would have to be designed symmetrically though. And as you said, pushing it back without breaking it might (lol) be tougher than it sounds.

Edit: Just to be pedantic, I looked up definition of ring, and the one I'm choosing is the one that enclosed a space - not necessarily perfectly circular.

[ihtoit]

infinitely easier to just launch a cluster of x number of satellites into a common orbital track (eg geosync/geostat for communications and weather satellites) or a dynamic orbital shell (eg GPS, some cellular relays). Made easier with MechJeb (I would use a common, reusable/retrievable/disposable-via-lithobraking launch/deployment vehicle like a spaceplane or a SSTO booster stage to get positioned and literally just drop the satellites in their correct positions in orbit, although that's a recent development for me, up until recently I launched each satellite on its own launcher and just let spent stages float up there, some even still attached to their payloads. My 6-bird Kerbosync/1 constellation was placed using just 1 launch with a manned lifter, with major axis set at 2868.75km - every orbit was a case of drop the next bird and boost it to a circular orbit, putting each bird in precisely the same track as the last and precisely 1/6 orbit in front of it. Drift rate ended up being extremely low, with the largest deviation from perfect being one of the birds having an orbital drift of +0.08m/s (surface speed) per orbit. Nothing a gentle nudge from a Kerbal on EVA won't fix ).

[kola2DONO]

First : This is impossible due to the game engine

Second : The only way we could do it is to use asteroids and connect them in an orbit around gilly, everything else would crash the game.

[Holo]

What if this challenge were to make a ring around a smaller body, like, say, a Class A-E asteroid? That would still be possible, while still being difficult.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

What if this challenge were to make a ring around a smaller body, like, say, a Class A-E asteroid? That would still be possible, while still being difficult.

Thanks, now I'm gonna try it on a Class A just to see how possible it is! should be interesting... and might provide the first pics for the thread!

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Right, I have spent the last 6/7 hours trying to do this, and I have to say that I've concluded that it is POSSIBLE to do this with an asteroid... won't bore you all with too many screenshots, but here are a few and a bit of explanation:

1) I grabbed a Class A asteroid using a massively over-powered tug for the task, and also proven to myself that pulling is FAR more stable than pushing:

Tug:

(I found out early on in .23.5 that this setup works well in sandbox, even if you end up forgetting RCS thrusters! like my first attempt... also helps if you end up far away on closest intercept... power up using the nukes to a decent intercept speed, then, if it's a high intercept speed, switch engines using an action group key)

Pulling Asteroid:

(I really like this pic!)

Starting (Eliptical) Orbit:

End orbit before plane change:

After plane change:

2) Then the fun really began, with me trying to work out how to angle docking ports on the ends of a piece of fuselage! After I'd worked that out, I sent the first bit off to become the foundation of the base:

Main part in-flight:

Docked to the 'roid:

Then I had EVEN MORE *fun* trying to work out how to get the other (identical to each other) parts up there... first attempt has failed due to some unforeseen clipping issues (which resulted in the robotic tug taking the part up and connecting it breaking irrepairably...)

Approach to main base part:

Docked:

Broken!:

So, in my opinion this is very doable with asteroids... I think these screenshots give a good indication of what I intended to do (even though the resulting structure would probably be a rather large 'ring' around this tiny asteroid!) I just need to spend a bit more time refining my station parts, then I may try again, with a bigger asteroid!

Edited April 14, 2014 by Cmdr. Arn1e
terrible miss-spellings!

[took]

I'm pretty sure you win the thread. Thanks for doing something great

[Galane]

An asteroid ship with a ring habitat around and attached to it.