Should KSP have a Delta-V readout?

[bsalis]

So a simple question...

Should Kerbal Space Program have a readout of some form, that shows you the calculated/estimated Delta-V of your craft?

This is currently available in at least two plugins I know of, maybe more. Personally I have been using MechJeb for a long time. If I had to pick one little thing that would be most painful to do without, then it would be the simple delta-v readout. It is effectively the real measure of how much "fuel" you have. Give me that readout and a delta-v map, and the lack of the rest of MJ is mostly an inconvenience.

There are good arguments each way. I know Squad have avoided a lot of data readouts as a design principal, with good reasons. Nonetheless, you are still given many key values, like velocity and all the stats in the resources tab. Performance is another consideration... I know the MJ calculations have an impact.

Opinions?

[Sokar408]

Its a simple yes. Infact all the readouts should be available in the stock game. Its always bothered me that it wasn't, considering how important they are to running an effective space problem.

[Accelerando]

it'd be very helpful to have both. newbies will notice the difference between ∆V and actual fuel left and the question opens in the mind. when i started playing, i didn't have the faintest idea that my acceleration was tied very intimately to how much fuel was left in the tank. nowadays it's so obvious when i built a 1T probe and put the tiny Rockomax engine on it, but it would be very helpful in learning this to have both readouts side by side. especially because when i was a newbie almost all of my attention was invested in just trying to make the rocket fly straight. seeing fuel only in KSP's arbitrary mass units just makes it more difficult for the learning to even begin.

on that note...

fuel should be displayed in actual tons instead of made-up units. the "litres" of fuel left in tanks are really useless for relating to your ship's mass unless you look in the game files or wiki the conversion rates. it's convoluted and it stymied me when i was first starting out learning the Rocket Equation through KSP.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Accelerando

[PwnedDuck]

Absolutely yes. If it has them on maneuver nodes, why not elsewhere? What kind of sense does that make?

[r4pt0r]

i dont think so. my most exciting missions are watching the fuel tick down as i burn towards home. will i make it? is my kerbal doomed to drift through space forever? my first interplanetary mission was to ike, and jeb made it back to kerbin with less than 2 units of fuel left. it was intense. i dont use mj or anything to tell me my dv or my ships mass, just a rough guesstimate as to what i will need. more fun for me that way. to quote the devs : "Falange: I wanted it sometimes, and I un-wanted it other times. In the end, it takes away a gameplay element because it takes some of the guesswork and some of the trial and error and figuring out for yourself what the delta-V is. It might take some of the magic away."

also here is a source for that quote http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/23/kerbal-space-program-dev-on-random-solar-systems-the-joy-of-failure-and-the-cult-of-steam/ the bit on the dv indicator is underneath the picture of Felipe

[Decho]

A delta V readout not being in the stock game is something I really don't understand. Also a peri & apoapsis (and maybe radar altitude) while in standard flight mode would make tremendous sense, as with those the information is already available, just fiddly to access.

[Paul Kingtiger]

At a minimum I'd love to see deltaV and thrust to weight ratio. I've used Mechjeb and Engineer Redux to give redout information and they weren't available I doubt I would still be playing this game. In fact I didn't really get into it until I downloaded Engineer.

For me the fun of the game is in working things out and to do that you need data. However you can just as easily say the fun for you is in trial and error and that's where the problem lies. Different people enjoy the game in different ways and we're lucky that the devs support modding so much allowing us to do that.

The maneuver node system does show that there is a need for and enjoyment of, calculation in the game so I hope we do see some more numbers in stock. I'm not too worried about the quote either, the devs have changed their mind before and nothing is set in stone.

[Superfluous J]

Yes. Unqualified, undeniable yes.

[Umlüx]

shut up and take all my yes!

[KSK]

I can see the arguments either way for a delta-V readout in-flight (or in the VAB for that matter). Personally I'm not too fussed - when I'm designing a ship I find it quite fun to break out the pen and paper occasionally and work out it out myself when I need to (and then add a safety margin onto the actual design ) but fully appreciate that that particular 'fun' may not apply to everyone.

Apoapsis / periapsis readouts whilst in flight mode would be golden though. I'd love to be able to fly a ship right up to a (fairly) reliable orbit, without having to use the Map screen.

[Streetwind]

I voted no, because for me, KSP always was about figuring things out. And frankly, giving you dV straight away takes away from that. If it had given me the value and said "this is how much further you can go", I would have learned a whole lot less. But because this value (and other things) wasn't given to me, I went and read over 30 pages on wikipedia about physics and rocket science. And for this, I now understand the topic much more intuitively than I ever would have otherwise.

Instead, what should be shown to the player in the VAB is the vehicle weight. It is something you need to know in order to figure things out for yourself, and right now, you have to press launch and then go into map view every time you want to check your vessel's weight. It's an unnecessary hassle.

[r4pt0r]

you can check your vessels weight in the stock game?

[Frank_G]

Yes, the HUD information the VOID plugin f.e. delivers is all one needs during flight and construction. DeltaV, TWR, apoapsis, periapsis, inclination, radar altitude and exact horizontal / vertical speed would be not only useful but absolutely neccessary in my opinion.

[Corw]

Anything even a bit complicated is too error prone and frustrating without knowing the numbers.

Just try making a return mission to Laythe without something like Kerbal Engineer. If you go with trial and error approach by the time you are fine tuning your lander or return stage, how long does it take to get your mission back to that point? Lets see. You need bit more fuel for aerocapure? Back to VAB, add more fuel to 4th or 5th stage. Make corrections to all of lower stages to compensate for increase in mass. They never work from first try. Make 3-5 more launches ("oh look! bit too low TWR in first stage!") and adjustments just to get back to that point you were fixing (if you are lucky). Not to mention those designs might work, but very likely they are going to be bloated.

Personally, when new version is out first thing I do is check if Kerbal Engineer is working. If it's not, I don't even bother starting the Kerbals until I see on the forums that Engineer is updated.

When I'm fooling around and make things explode for ****s and giggles it is fine and dandy to go without that info. Bit if I'm actually set to achieve something, I want and need that info.

[Unit327]

Apoapsis / periapsis readouts whilst in flight mode would be golden though. I'd love to be able to fly a ship right up to a (fairly) reliable orbit, without having to use the Map screen.

Engineer Redux will do the trick for that. Or you could always put the map view on a separate monitor. Shameless self promotion.

[KSK]

Engineer Redux will do the trick for that. Or you could always put the map view on a separate monitor. Shameless self promotion.

Oh absolutely. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice to have in stock though.

[Superfluous J]

you can check your vessels weight in the stock game?

Yeah. Once you're flying the ship, go into map mode and click that little "i" on the right side of the screen.

[Padishar]

I voted no, because for me, KSP always was about figuring things out. And frankly, giving you dV straight away takes away from that. If it had given me the value and said "this is how much further you can go", I would have learned a whole lot less. But because this value (and other things) wasn't given to me, I went and read over 30 pages on wikipedia about physics and rocket science. And for this, I now understand the topic much more intuitively than I ever would have otherwise.

Instead, what should be shown to the player in the VAB is the vehicle weight. It is something you need to know in order to figure things out for yourself, and right now, you have to press launch and then go into map view every time you want to check your vessel's weight. It's an unnecessary hassle.

While I don't agree with your "no" vote on the deltaV question, I do understand the arguments so I can't really support the "yes" vote either. If it was part of the stock game then it should be optional, defaulting to off.

I also think the same about vehicle weight (well, mass, strictly speaking). Both the wet and dry mass of the craft should be displayable in the editor for people that want to work things out (preferably stage by stage but you can work around it by detaching chunks of your rocket if only a total is given) but I'm sure there are plenty of people who have no interest in the numbers and would rather the interface isn't cluttered with unwanted information. So optional again, or perhaps find a way of displaying the data only when required, e.g. a popup with various stats when you mouse-over the staging icons (I have considered this for a possible feature in KER to avoid the clutter of the window in the VAB but it is sometimes useful for the values to remain visible, e.g. while adjusting fuel tanks or engine thrusts).

Edited April 24, 2014 by Padishar

[Random Tank]

All I really want is a weight and TWR readout in the VAB/SPH; this really shouldn't be an issue as you can already find out the weight of the craft when you launch it and look in map view, I just want it in the creator to save time. TWR is very simple to work out, but it'd be good if the game just told you; yet again, to save time. Delta V readout I'm not fussed about; I like the guessing game of trying to work out if I have the fuel or not, but it could be useful.

I agree that it should show the radar altitude; but don't replace the altimeter with it, or orbit altitudes will be annoying (I know the radar alt cuts off at 5km, but I'd prefer two readings or a toggle between the 2, not an auto switch.

[Moar Boosters]

I think it'd be nice if information like this was unlocked by a series of different modules you unlock.

[royying]

I think the delta V and TWR data are necessary for spacecraft design

I know the dev team want us have fun in failure

We may have fun if the rocket boom in ascent stage

but spending long time in an interplanetary mission then run out of fuel in deep space make people frustrated

[katateochi]

I'm also someone who really likes to have the MJ readouts for dV during the design and also during flight.

BUT I can see arguments for not including it in stock or at least for making it something that you can turn off.

- There are some users who like to fly by eye/intuition and not be told anything, this would break their style of play. When I play career I often like to play without any info.

- For newcomers, being instantly presented with dV info might make them scared by the apparent need to get all mathematical. Sure when you get advanced you need to crack the calculator out, but you don't need it to start with.

- Some of us will still want mods like MJ for other things (I for one will keep it for the Smart ASS and other info read outs), but then we'll have two things on screen telling us the same thing and that's a waste of screen real-estate.

I think its nice to have it as a optional bolt on and r4m0n has done a very nice job with MJ's interface. Why make the devs spend time on something that already exists in a well made and maintained mod.

[Xaiier]

Here's the thing, we are given nodes that tell us data in delta-v, but no way to measure how much delta-v we actually have. I think it should be an optional advanced data mode that can be turned on that also provides those other missing orbital characteristics, so that noobs don't get overwhelmed, but those of us who understand the basics already can be a lot more precise without relying on mods.

[FREEFALL1984]

Perhaps as the game inherits inevitable difficulty settings they could have both DV and TW for easy mode, DV only for medium and nothing for hard, this would let the more hardcore KSP players calculate their own DV

[Skipants]

Other people have said this but I think a nice compromise would be to have it something that you unlock in career mode (mid-late tech tree?) and then in sandbox.....well it would be there but you could turn it on and off just like part clipping or infinite fuel ect. Play how you want but I think it would be nice to have that without having to install a mod.