Why SQUAD is against procedurally generated solar systems?

[Tery215]

Procedurally generated solar systems would be nice 'n' all, if each save received the same seed to generate them, similarly to Space Engine.

(if it actually works that way)

[stupid_chris]

Well I'm pretty sure Felipe wouldn't be pleased that you confirm he's doing the game for himself.

He said on many occasions that KSP was, at first, something he started because he's been wanting to do this for a very long time. Of course he isn't doing it for himself in a strict manner, as we wouldn't be playing it, but he absolutely is on some level. KSP is Felipe's project, and he is fully right to stick to his vision of it. That doesn't mean we can't propose things here and there and try to see if he's interested, but if he doesn't feel it belongs in KSP, that's his rightful decision.

In no way does that entitle anyone to say "this should be in the game" and then get upset if the developper disagrees.

[neamerjell]

how would they do the fluff science text for a random planet? im glad every system is the same

Easy.

"The surface of [insert generated planet name here] is nothing like [insert random dessert name here]. In fact, I doubt it is edible at all."

"The atmosphere of [insert generated planet name here] has high concentrations of [insert gas name 1] and [insert gas name 2]."

Variables could be stored in a data structure of some type:

Planet Name: Mog <== Randomly generated

Dessert Name: Yogurt <== Picked from a list

Has Atmosphere: True <== Random 50/50

Gas Name1: Methane <== Picked from a list

Gas Name2: Sulphur Hexaflouride <== Picked from a list

Breathable Atmosphere: False <== Random with a low probability of True

Able To Use Jets: False <== If Has Atmosphere = True & Gas1 or Gas2 = Oxygen, then True

Is A Moon: True <== Random with a low probability of True, at least one parent planet must exist to be True

Is A Moon Of: Schwartz <== Picked from the list of already generated planets

Planet Name:Schwartz

Dessert Name: Jello

Has Atmosphere: True

Gas Name1: Oxygen

Gas Name2: Nitrogen

Breathable Atmosphere: True

Able To Use Jets: True

Is A Moon: False

Is A Moon Of: N/A

Edited May 9, 2014 by neamerjell
Reformated data example

[Moach]

just a word of technicality here --

KSP does in fact have procedural planets - well, not in a "randomly generated" sense, but a lot of the terrain features that got introduced a couple of updates ago are generated by logical processes (aka: procedural) rather than hand-drawn and loaded from a map...

that's just to point out that by the definition of the term, "procedural" is one thing, while "randomly generated" is another altogether - one does require the other, but not the other way around... oh well, you get the idea, right?

ok, I'll be off before anyone realizes the fact that this adds just about nothing to the discussion.... or does it? - you decide

cheers!

[cantab]

Obviously Squad themselves said "procedural" when they meant (pseudo-)random.

As for actual random bodies, I think a mix of constant and randomised celestials could work. For example Jool would always have Laythe, Vall, Tylo, Bop, and Pol, but then it might have some randomised moons as well. We've seen the beginnings of this with the asteroids.

[Faark]

Another in-between idea that contains no random seeds but also isn't fixed would be for SQUAD to open up an API to allow mods to generate a solar system. You'd still have to have manually created and designed planets, but could have more than one of them - a modder could say "I worked for months on my new cool solar system - load it up and have a look".

Uhm, Isn't that pretty much exactly the current situation? At least was like this about

.

As for procedural generated systems, i don't think this would improve my gameplay experience very much. I don't know how often i used the wiki to look up some kind of orbital information for one of kerbins bodies, sth that would be impossible and i had to clutter my KSP with more mods to get the same info. Also "procedurally generated" was hyped a lot in the recent years. Happily that's starting to settle, again, since a lot of people start to realize that it doesn't magically generate content but mostly randomly rearranged entities/patterns/details/elements or you want to call it. Someone has to create those entities non the less (and KSP doesn't have much of them even on a manually crafted system), and once you've seen them you'll realize that everything else is just random noise/filler.

Sure, it would be a nice optional feature. But i just don't think it would be worth the effort. Neither for squad (that have a hard time giving me an incentive checking out all planets in kerbins system in the first place), nor for modders (or we would already have such mods).

[neamerjell]

In no way does that entitle anyone to say "this should be in the game" and then get upset if the developper disagrees.

This is one reason why I love games that are built with mods in mind. People can alter, enhance, or completely remake the game as they see fit and are not limited to the developer's vision of what it should be. I am not putting down any developer's ideas by any means, but there are times when creative people have ideas that may not have even dawned on the developers.

With KSP, I have seen the modders enhancing the game in ways that the developers may have had in mind, but haven't had the time or resources to implement. B9 Aerospace is a perfect example: it introduced the Sabre engine, and a later version of the stock game included a Rapier engine, with the name being an obvious nod to the original modder.

If only every game franchise embraced the modding community as warmly as the KSP one has...

[neamerjell]

This whole discussion has me thinking of the space stage of Spore and how Maxis generated a whole galaxy of stars and planets with Easter eggs or unique features to be found in almost every system (alien artifacts, unique geographical features, remnants of past civilizations). However, Spore paid little attention to real physics, leaving plenty of processing power available to implement and maintain such a rich universe.

[HeadHunter67]

I'm not a fan of many solar systems idea. I hope KSP will stay more about SCIENCE than fiction.

So, you'll readily accept the idea of stupid little green men building rockets as "science", but dismiss the notion of other planetary systems (one of which those green men must live in, because it's sure not ours) as "fiction"?

Ooooookay, heard everything I need to take this idea seriously. Good luck with your compelling arguments.

[r4pt0r]

So, you'll readily accept the idea of stupid little green men building rockets as "science", but dismiss the notion of other planetary systems (one of which those green men must live in, because it's sure not ours) as "fiction"?

Ooooookay, heard everything I need to take this idea seriously. Good luck with your compelling arguments.

i believe he is referring to faster than light travel, or warp, as that is the best way to have multiple systems in game and not have it take hours at full timewarp to reach. i agree with him, there should only be 1 solar system to explore

Holtzman: The game is science fiction, but one of the things that Felipe has really driven is that he wants the science to come first and the fiction to come second. So when you start talking about multiple solar systems, you get further into the realm of fiction.

Falange: Right, because you’re talking about interstellar distances, which means time-warp isn't enough anymore, no matter how fast you’re going. Now you need some sort of warp drive, and that falls into the realm of sci-fi. And that then requires us to break the laws of physics, which would in fact make everything much trickier.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/23/kerbal-space-program-dev-on-random-solar-systems-the-joy-of-failure-and-the-cult-of-steam/

[rkman]

If the game ever gets other solar systems (a few hundred or so) then there is no need to have random seeds because even if the universe is the same every time you load the game, you'd spend a lifetime to get to all of the other systems.

[EvilotionCR2]

Because of sharing craft files and references in measuring rockets. A line like "My rocket can make this to starsystem1 with this much fuel left!" could not exist. Squad said this in the first Kerbalkon

[rtxoff]

Why SQUAD is against procedurally generated solar systems?

If there would be a high demand for it there would be already a mod for it, it is easy as that. Looks like not many people care about procedurally generated solar systems.

However there are a few mods out there that can change the ksp solar system so you can have a starting point for making such a mod if you really want.

[Dodgey]

If this conversation is to go on please stop saying procedural, the word is random, that is where the opposition by Squad is.

[rkman]

If there would be a high demand for it there would be already a mod for it, it is easy as that.

I would not be so sure that the addition of procedurally generated solar systems (outside the current solar system) - that is to say, adding a small procedurally generated universe, is exactly "easy".

[tntristan12]

Squad's stance on some features is just downright perplexing. In this instance alone they are contradicting their stance of "gameplay over realism" with "this feature is unrealistic and therefore should not be implemented" all the while completely ignoring any tangible benefits to gameplay, player immersion, difficulty curve progression, and end game content. I've argued in favor of other solar systems random or otherwise time and time again and time and time again I've been ignored because, ultimately, what do any of our opinions matter? I'm sick of it, so I'll just throw my hands up here and give up.

As for the OP's original suggestion, I think a default (but editable) seed in the advanced settings is a great way to keep new players on the same page while allowing more advanced players the opportunity to expand their options and keep from having to play the same game each time they start a new save. If you don't want the challenge of s random system, don't change the default seed. Simple.

[shizophrenic]

I can understand Squad for not making the Systems not randomly generated right now. Squad is still creating the game. Error tracking for GUI, calculating for nodes and such things were harder. With one System you know what values have to get. The Argument about getting bored landing on planet x the y. time lies in just two Problems. The first squad i think is working on, ist more content. the second is the way a Player approaches the game. The game started as a sandbox game. the goals and the ways to realise them is your Job to do.

And in my opinion with the development stage today different solar System won't kill repetitiveness. well the planets had different, orbits, atmosheres, names, colours and what else, but you will just using the same ways to get there, land there and go back. Probably all the mods will be adjusted to be able to do all the calculations for you, so even the argument "the values for the planets are random now ist harder" doesn't really aply.

my opinion (!): To kill repetitivness it is more importance to give more reasons to plan different Missions than making the kerbal System variable.

[xrayfishx]

If there would be a high demand for it there would be already a mod for it, it is easy as that. Looks like not many people care about procedurally generated solar systems.

I haven't asked any modders, but I think this is more likely because it's so difficult to do. Creating mods doesn't go like "oh hey, I got this idea" *mod released*.

Do you think no one really cared for multiplayer before KMP was released?

I would really like to see NathanKell's response to what you wrote.

[jamqdlaty]

And in my opinion with the development stage today different solar System won't kill repetitiveness. well the planets had different, orbits, atmosheres, names, colours and what else, but you will just using the same ways to get there, land there and go back. Probably all the mods will be adjusted to be able to do all the calculations for you, so even the argument "the values for the planets are random now ist harder" doesn't really aply.

About adjusted mods - I don't use MechJeb and other pliot/calculation mods, in my opinion it kills all the fun. About differences between planets - I read somewhere some time ago that Squad wants to implement weather conditions some day, so it WOULD be harder to get to a planet which conditions (including weather) are completely unknown to you.

Putting you to unknown Solar System everytime you start conquering space... I don't know, I just feel like it's the biggest thing that is missing in this sandbox space program game.

EDIT:

If there would be a high demand for it there would be already a mod for it, it is easy as that. Looks like not many people care about procedurally generated solar systems.

However there are a few mods out there that can change the ksp solar system so you can have a starting point for making such a mod if you really want.

Sorry man, I'm a graphic designer, not a modder. There would NOT be any mod for it yet. You seem to not understand one thing - Squad makes really big money on KSP (implementing random solar systems the way I see it wouldn't change it for bad), they have skills and possibility to do that. That system is clearly too big thing to be included in a mod - it would probably require some changes in game itself. Even if it wouldn't... Come on, be serious - it's still too big for a free mod.

Edited May 9, 2014 by jamqdlaty

[Arcamean]

Squad's stance on some features is just downright perplexing.

Not to risk a thread lock or anything but this does bother me more than it should. The entire purpose of a section like this is for ideas both liked and disliked. Quite a lot of the "Do not ask for" items are things I want to see or discuss and know that Squad or someone with their ear is watching and taking into consideration. In my opinion about the original topic I'm unsure to be frank. While it sounds cool, without FTL travel reaching other systems would take months of in game time at 100k speed.

[jamqdlaty]

Not to risk a thread lock or anything but this does bother me more than it should. The entire purpose of a section like this is for ideas both liked and disliked. Quite a lot of the "Do not ask for" items are things I want to see or discuss and know that Squad or someone with their ear is watching and taking into consideration. In my opinion about the original topic I'm unsure to be frank. While it sounds cool, without FTL travel reaching other systems would take months of in game time at 100k speed.

Guys, really, I'm sick of it. Just READ correctly. I don't want TRAVELING to other systems. I want a possibility to start on Kerbin which is in a RANDOM SOLAR SYSTEM, so i could make a career and unlock parts there, not just getting to other Solar Systems when I've got already everything unlocked.

[Dunbaratu]

If this conversation is to go on please stop saying procedural, the word is random, that is where the opposition by Squad is.

Incorrect. They are against ANY ability to alter the solar system by feeding new numbers into a solar system generation algorithm, regardless of whether those numbers start from a random seed or not. The issue of whether or not the alternate solar system is generated with any randomness or not is irrelevant when they don't even want there to be an alternate solar system possibility in the first place. That part of the game is locked down and not open to any modding work.

(or we would already have such mods).

That argument is based on the false presumption that anything anyone thinks of is equally easy to do in a mod, ignoring the major hurdles that get in your way when trying to do a thing the original software makers didn't want to open up to public modding.

As for actual random bodies, I think a mix of constant and randomised celestials could work. For example Jool would always have Laythe, Vall, Tylo, Bop, and Pol, but then it might have some randomised moons as well. We've seen the beginnings of this with the asteroids.

Exactly. A lot of the arguments against having any random factors affecting the procedural algorithm are based on the false premise that if you allow some randomness that this means you get nothing BUT utter uncontrolled randomness, which is pure hogwash. You can still bound the randomized factors with sanity checks to avoid things like planets that collide with each other's orbits. You can have weighted algorithms making things more likely to be sane than silly (i.e. a planet's likelihood of being a small solid planet instead of a gas giant varying depending on how close to the sun it is, that sort of thing). The idea that the only two choices are "everything fixed and neverchanging" versus "everything totally silly and haphazard" is immediately dismissible and nonsense.

Edited August 20, 2014 by sumghai
Consolidated consecutive replies by the same poster

[Shna_na]

There's a lot of replies on this thread, but I've read the first page. I'll give you the reason in a short, simple answer:

HarvesteR's aim of the game is to make it a vast space exploration sandbox with mostly realistic physics (downscaled and with more powerful parts than real life, however, to ease off on the difficulty some) in which a large community can share their accomplishments with each other. If they don't have the same places to go as each other, the community isn't as close.

I fully agree. Every person's game of Kerbal Space Program should run exactly the same, with the only variable being their style of play. Obviously, the asteroids are random, but this is a good thing. It's controlled randomness, and if it wasn't semi-random it would defeat the point of the expansion. Is this clear enough, or do you have any further questions?

[cantab]

Uhm, Isn't that pretty much exactly the current situation? At least was like this about half a year ago.

I don't know the details, but IIRC Planet Factory took an undue amount of work, is still kind of kludgy, and is a serious RAM hog. Celestials is one aspect of the game that's still distinctly mod unfriendly. I don't believe that's necessarily a deliberate decision by Squad, it's probably just a side-effect of how they did the coding.

B9 Aerospace is a perfect example: it introduced the Sabre engine, and a later version of the stock game included a Rapier engine, with the name being an obvious nod to the original modder.

More likely both were named after the real SABRE. /tangent

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Procedurally DOES NOT EQUAL Random

It means that every planet would have craters, and the such made in the game files. Like the Mun is now. Whole planets though, still. It wouldn't mean random planets, and just New ones.