Stockalike RF Engine Configs v3.2.6 [01/20/19][RF v12]

[JT2227]

Is there any tips to reducing LH2/LOX Boiloff? I'm trying to go to Mars with cryo fuels, but they all seem to boil off very quickly.

[regex]

Is there any tips to reducing LH2/LOX Boiloff? I'm trying to go to Mars with cryo fuels, but they all seem to boil off very quickly.

That's, uh, how it's supposed to work.

Anyway, I didn't see anything immediate in RealFuels, you'll probably have to write a ModuleManager config to change all the TANKS under each TANK_DEFINITION to have 0.0 for loss_rate. You can see the tank types at GameData/RealFuels/Resources/RealTankTypes.cfg

[Raptor831]

The next version of Stockalike will have Svm420's RealPlume configs included. You can remove them and use others, but it will come with some plumes. It won't cover all of the engines, though. I'm trying to push a bunch of stuff into this update, since I'm also changing the folder structure to remove the config files from /GameData/RealFuels/ to keep that folder clean.

All of this is available at the GitHub repo (linked in the OP) for anyone who wants to try. If you do, be sure to do a clean install of RealFuels and then install the Stockalike folders. Hopefully, I'll get to putting in some new configs that were submitted over the last little while (thanks for those again!).

JT2227: Use insulated tanks, if you're not already. That will help, but not stop it entirely. I can't remember if the thermal radiators are still in Real Fuels, but those would actively cool the tanks, which almost removed boiloff entirely (IIRC). But really, boiloff is just a problem of spaceflight you have to live with. You can thank science.

[Starwaster]

The next version of Stockalike will have Svm420's RealPlume configs included. You can remove them and use others, but it will come with some plumes. It won't cover all of the engines, though. I'm trying to push a bunch of stuff into this update, since I'm also changing the folder structure to remove the config files from /GameData/RealFuels/ to keep that folder clean.

All of this is available at the GitHub repo (linked in the OP) for anyone who wants to try. If you do, be sure to do a clean install of RealFuels and then install the Stockalike folders. Hopefully, I'll get to putting in some new configs that were submitted over the last little while (thanks for those again!).

JT2227: Use insulated tanks, if you're not already. That will help, but not stop it entirely. I can't remember if the thermal radiators are still in Real Fuels, but those would actively cool the tanks, which almost removed boiloff entirely (IIRC). But really, boiloff is just a problem of spaceflight you have to live with. You can thank science.

Radiators (and the ModuleHeatPump plugin) are no longer part of Real Fuels.

Use Heat Pump mod instead: https://github.com/Starwaster/HeatPump/releases/latest

(It is based on the latest RF Heat Pump code but revamped to make use of KSP 1.0 thermodynamics. The radiators that they come with actively cool by the amount of conducted heat + a little extra)

[lurkoholic]

The heat pump radiators are no longer included in RealFuels. Starwaster released an updated version: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/128502 Just be careful when time warping a craft with the radiators

Edit: Ninja'd. I type really slowly

Edited October 6, 2015 by lurkoholic

[Starwaster]

FYI about boiloff: research 'Zero Boil Off' (common abbreviation ZBO). There is much research done on the subject by NASA as they consider that any boil off needs to be eliminated. For the Copernicus MTV for instance they expect that with insulation that the amount of heat needing to be eliminated will be 78 watts of heat in LEO and the cost of removal was given as 114 watts electrical per watt of heat removed. So it's definitely not something that we consider IRL as something that we 'just have to live with'

- - - Updated - - -

The heat pump radiators are no longer included in RealFuels. Starwaster released an updated version: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/128502 Just be careful when time warping a craft with the radiators

What problem are you talking about re timewarping? I don't recall anyone having posted any bug reports or feedback on the subject, so if there's something I need to know about, please go post in that thread or open a github issue please

Edit: One other thing about boil off in Real Fuels itself: Very little of the current code takes into account the new thermal model that KSP 1.0 brought to the table. That is something that I've been actively working on updating although I fell behind because I needed to take a break from coding. But when boil off is revamped, the evaporative cooling that should come with it will work properly. (it's actually in there now but the actual boiloff is still based on the old thermal model so it actually heats up too much faster than it can be cooled down)

When I get the boil off code properly finalized and pushed off to Nathan, Heat Pump will get a simultaneous update so it will all work properly.

(it's really cool right now because you can take an empty tank at ambient temperatures and start pumping hydrogen into it and watch the internal temps start dropping as the hydrogen boils)

Edited October 6, 2015 by Starwaster

[lurkoholic]

What problem are you talking about re timewarping? I don't recall anyone having posted any bug reports or feedback on the subject, so if there's something I need to know about, please go post in that thread or open a github issue please

Edit: One other thing about boil off in Real Fuels itself: Very little of the current code takes into account the new thermal model that KSP 1.0 brought to the table. That is something that I've been actively working on updating although I fell behind because I needed to take a break from coding. But when boil off is revamped, the evaporative cooling that should come with it will work properly. (it's actually in there now but the actual boiloff is still based on the old thermal model so it actually heats up too much faster than it can be cooled down)

When I get the boil off code properly finalized and pushed off to Nathan, Heat Pump will get a simultaneous update so it will all work properly.

(it's really cool right now because you can take an empty tank at ambient temperatures and start pumping hydrogen into it and watch the internal temps start dropping as the hydrogen boils)

I assumed it was covered in the "Known Issues" part of your OP. When time warping the radiator temp gauge will pop up and cycle between hot and really hot, sometimes exploding. It also is usually hot when returning to a craft after time warping without it focused. This was on a heavily modded install, where I've also had the occasional (stock?) heat bug where a small part like a cubic octagonal strut will heat up until it explodes. I thought I would be clever one time and turn on "Ignore Max Temperature"...then all my Methane boiled off! I'll see if it works any differently on an install without as many mods, if that isn't normal.

In the future will tanks stay near the boiling point temperature for the cryogenic fuels they contain? Or is the fuel temperature separate from the tank temperature?

[Starwaster]

In the future will tanks stay near the boiling point temperature for the cryogenic fuels they contain? Or is the fuel temperature separate from the tank temperature?

In the dev version I have locally, the tank's part temperature stays pretty close to the boiling point of the fuel whose boiling point is the lowest. (which actually means that the H2 keeps the O2 cool enough that it doesn't start boiling. Which isn't entirely unprecedented though it's not behavior you see in most fuel tanks historically speaking)

But yeah, in the boiloff calculations I'm treating the part's temp as separate from the fuel temp; the difference in temperature between the two determines how much heat is actually being conducted into the fuel. (the tank's skin will tend to be cooler than ambient but not nearly as cold as the interior)

(Edit: So, the answer is yes to both. Yes they're separate but the internal part temp will still be pretty cold because of evaporation from boiloff)

[GreenWolf]

How well does this work on a normal scale kerbin system "out of the box"? I noticed in the Real Fuels topic that Nathan said using RF on stock-sized Kerbin drastically reduces the amount of rocket needed, but it never specifies if this is just for the RSS configs or for RF in general. If it doesn't work out of the box, what would be needed to het it to work, seeing as how KIDS hasn't been updated for 1.0.4?

Second, is there any way to replenish the number of ignitions an engine has left? I remember there being a mod that did that using KAS back when RF used Engine Ignitor, but I can't find anything like that now.

Finally, how does this interact with the stock ISRU system?

[blowfish]

How well does this work on a normal scale kerbin system "out of the box"? I noticed in the Real Fuels topic that Nathan said using RF on stock-sized Kerbin drastically reduces the amount of rocket needed, but it never specifies if this is just for the RSS configs or for RF in general. If it doesn't work out of the box, what would be needed to het it to work, seeing as how KIDS hasn't been updated for 1.0.4?

There's nothing that will prevent you from using this in stock Kerbin, but as stated, it will make getting to orbit much easier, since stock tanks are much heavier and engine TWRs lower than they are in real life (whereas RF Stockalike gives everything semi-realistic masses).

Finally, how does this interact with the stock ISRU system?

It doesn't. You could try the Real ISRU mod.

[lurkoholic]

How well does this work on a normal scale kerbin system "out of the box"? I noticed in the Real Fuels topic that Nathan said using RF on stock-sized Kerbin drastically reduces the amount of rocket needed, but it never specifies if this is just for the RSS configs or for RF in general. If it doesn't work out of the box, what would be needed to het it to work, seeing as how KIDS hasn't been updated for 1.0.4?

You can set "useRealisticMass = false" to make the engine and tank masses closer to stock (see below from RealFuels post#3). Even most kerolox and hypergolic engines will have higher I_sp than stock since most configs are based on pre-1.0 stats (and are more realistic ). If you use the LV-N or other NTR engines, you will probably want to modify their mass since they will also get multiplied 3.2x, and will be much heavier than stock.

FAQ

Q: How do I configure this for a non-rescaled solar system?

A: RF is designed for real-world performance. Engines and tanks in stock KSP (and stock-balanced mods) perform much worse than their real counterparts; engines are about 3.2x as heavy for their thrust and role, and tanks about 4x as heavy (in terms of dry mass). This means that if you use RF on a solar system with Kerbol-level deltaV requirements, you won't need much rocket. There are two solutions for this. First, you can use KIDS to rescale the difficulty. If you want to need real-life-size rockets, use .3333, .3333 multipliers; if you want something closer to a stock KSP experience, use a higher (but less than 1.0) multiplier for each. If you just want something like a stock KSP experience (with heavier engines and tanks), then open RealFuels/RealSettings.cfg and find useRealisticMass = true and change the true to false. You will get approximately stock-KSP-level performance out of your engines and tanks.

[ebigunso]

How well does this work on a normal scale kerbin system "out of the box"? I noticed in the Real Fuels topic that Nathan said using RF on stock-sized Kerbin drastically reduces the amount of rocket needed, but it never specifies if this is just for the RSS configs or for RF in general. If it doesn't work out of the box, what would be needed to het it to work, seeing as how KIDS hasn't been updated for 1.0.4?

Second, is there any way to replenish the number of ignitions an engine has left? I remember there being a mod that did that using KAS back when RF used Engine Ignitor, but I can't find anything like that now.

Finally, how does this interact with the stock ISRU system?

This is for RealFuels not specific to StockAlike config, but what I do to make things not too easy for stock Kerbin is to set "Use realistic engine mass" option inside RealSettings to False.

[NathanKell]

Stock engines have the Isp of closed cycle NTO/Aerozine, but about 4x to 6x the mass they should. Stock tanks have about 4-6x the dry mass they should too.

[Svm420]

I have had a problem with the config generator for some time and I just want to clarify the issue. Whenever I try to make a config for an rcs block I get the result below. However I used to get something a bit different as seen below that. Which numbers for thrustPower on the individual fuel types are correct?

MODULE
{
name = ModuleEngineConfigs
type = ModuleRCSFX
techLevel = 1
origTechLevel = 1
engineType = L
origMass = 0.035
configuration = Hydrazine
modded = false

CONFIG
{
name = Hydrazine
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = Hydrazine
ratio = 100
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.2740
IspV = 0.7200
throttle = 0



}
CONFIG
{
name = HTP
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = HTP
ratio = 100
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.1770
IspV = 0.4650
throttle = 0



}
CONFIG
{
name = MMH+NTO
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = MMH
ratio = 50.73477956613017
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 49.26522043386983
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.9600
IspV = 0.9500
throttle = 0



}
CONFIG
{
name = Nitrogen
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = Nitrogen
ratio = 100
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.1001
IspV = 0.1950
throttle = 0



}
CONFIG
{
name = NitrousOxide
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = NitrousOxide
ratio = 100
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.2000
IspV = 0.5250
throttle = 0



}
CONFIG
{
name = UDMH+NTO
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = UDMH
ratio = 47.82321899736148
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 52.17678100263852
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.9500
IspV = 0.9500
throttle = 0



}
CONFIG
{
name = Aerozine50+NTO
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = Aerozine50
ratio = 48.65771812080538
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 51.34228187919462
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.9600
IspV = 0.9500
throttle = 0



}
CONFIG
{
name = Helium
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0
heatProduction = 48
PROPELLANT
{
name = Helium
ratio = 100
DrawGauge = True
%ResourceFlowMode = STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW
}
IspSL = 0.2030
IspV = 0.4530
throttle = 0



}
}

MODULE
{
name = ModuleEngineConfigs
type = ModuleRCS
techLevel = 1
origTechLevel = 1
engineType = L
origMass = 2.75
configuration = Hydrazine
modded = false
CONFIG
{
name = MMH+NTO
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
IspSL = 0.4
IspV = 0.952
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = MMH
ratio = 0.51135562
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 0.48864438
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = Hydrazine
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0.578
IspSL = 0.23
IspV = 0.72
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = Hydrazine
ratio = 1
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = HTP
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0.241
IspSL = 0.2
IspV = 0.465
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = HTP
ratio = 1
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = Nitrogen
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0.225
IspSL = 0.1
IspV = 0.195
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = Nitrogen
ratio = 1
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = NitrousOxide
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0.225
IspSL = 0.253
IspV = 0.5
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = NitrousOxide
ratio = 1
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = UDMH+NTO
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0.993
IspSL = 0.396
IspV = 0.943
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = UDMH
ratio = 0.47823219
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 0.52176781
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = MonoPropellant
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0.578
IspSL = 0.243
IspV = 0.64
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = MonoPropellant
ratio = 1
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = Aerozine50+NTO
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 1
IspSL = 0.403
IspV = 0.955
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = Aerozine50
ratio = 0.48657718
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = NTO
ratio = 0.51342282
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = Helium
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]thrustPower[/COLOR][/B] = 0.013
IspSL = 0.203
IspV = 0.453
throttle = 1
PROPELLANT
{
name = Helium
ratio = 1
}
}

Edited October 12, 2015 by Svm420

[dlrk]

Any low-thrust Methane engines suitable for landers? Couldnt seem to find any.

[Raptor831]

Any low-thrust Methane engines suitable for landers? Couldnt seem to find any.

Honestly, I don't recall. Are there any candidate models that you've found? Wouldn't mind adding a methalox mode to a nice lander engine. Also, there are a ton of mods that Stockalike supports (or tries to), so they could just be in a mod you don't have. (boy, I can't wait until 64-bit arrives for everyone)

[Svm420]

Did you see my last post Raptor?

[blowfish]

Honestly, I don't recall. Are there any candidate models that you've found? Wouldn't mind adding a methalox mode to a nice lander engine. Also, there are a ton of mods that Stockalike supports (or tries to), so they could just be in a mod you don't have. (boy, I can't wait until 64-bit arrives for everyone)

The currently-WIP SSTU mod has some smallish engines that might do well with methalox configs.

[Raptor831]

Did you see my last post Raptor?

Knew I missed something. The RCS portion isn't really finalized yet. In this instance, I rounded the thrust to the nearest kN, so in the case of RCS you either get 1 or 0 if you choose thrustPower = 1. I need to turn that off for RCS types in the generator.

[westamastaflash]

boy, I can't wait until 64-bit arrives for everyone)

I'm running Linux (with KSP on an SSD) and with the large number of mods it takes like 10 minutes to start KSP. That's *after* i pruned all the fuel tanks (models+textures) and extra RCS thrusters.

I'm thinking of making some more general configs so I can have maybe just 3 1.25m engines, 3 2.5.. etc. Can the mass of an engine be modified with the config? Seems like a lot of the engine packs have quite detailed textures that take some time to load.

[Raptor831]

I'm running Linux (with KSP on an SSD) and with the large number of mods it takes like 10 minutes to start KSP. That's *after* i pruned all the fuel tanks (models+textures) and extra RCS thrusters.

I'm thinking of making some more general configs so I can have maybe just 3 1.25m engines, 3 2.5.. etc. Can the mass of an engine be modified with the config? Seems like a lot of the engine packs have quite detailed textures that take some time to load.

Yes, the mass can be edited within the configs or with additional configs.

As for the loading times, I would still be using ATM if I had the choice. Converting everything to .dds textures is still worth it. And frankly, I don't play KSP for all the pretty visuals, even though the game produces some stunning scenes! So, reducing texture quality is a necessary evil to make the game more stable.

[X10Z]

I just installed this, but the engines seem really overpowered. An upperstage on my orbital rocket had almost 5000 delta v. Were these designed for rss?

[blowfish]

I just installed this, but the engines seem really overpowered. An upperstage on my orbital rocket had almost 5000 delta v. Were these designed for rss?

Not RSS specifically, but yes everything will be very OP for stock Kerbin. Squad has engines and tanks massing several times what they do in real life, and this gives them realistic masses.

[westamastaflash]

Yes, the mass can be edited within the configs or with additional configs.

As for the loading times, I would still be using ATM if I had the choice. Converting everything to .dds textures is still worth it. And frankly, I don't play KSP for all the pretty visuals, even though the game produces some stunning scenes! So, reducing texture quality is a necessary evil to make the game more stable.

Thanks. I completely forgot that I didn't include it in my install. A lot of mods have moved to dds but not all. Crossing my fingers that it will be much faster once i run it through the ringer.

EDIT: never mind my other question, I just checked the Repo.

Edited October 19, 2015 by westamastaflash

[ebigunso]

I just installed this, but the engines seem really overpowered. An upperstage on my orbital rocket had almost 5000 delta v. Were these designed for rss?

Exactly as blowfish said. But as a side note, you can go into the RF folder and edit the RealSettings.cfg and set "Use realistic mass" to false if you want to use Kerbin optimized masses.