KARPA Phoenix Challenge

[Fengist]

The Kerbal Advanced Research Projects Agency

Phoenix Operations Challenge

This challenge is based on a real DARPA Solicitation which you can find here here.

DARPA Synopsis: The goal of the Phoenix program is to develop and demonstrate technologies to harvest and re-use valuable components from retired, cooperative, non-operating satellites in or near geosynchronous orbit (GEO) and, using these components, realize the ability to create new space systems at greatly reduced cost. Phoenix seeks to demonstrate around-the-clock, globally persistent communication capability for warfighters more economically by robotically removing and re-using GEO-based space apertures and antennas from de-commissioned satellites in the graveyard or disposal orbit.

Background: BILLIONS of dollars are spent getting satellites into orbit and when they eventually die they're either deorbited in the case of low Earth orbits, moved to a 'satellite graveyard' in the case of geosynchronous satellites or simply left to become part of the upcoming Kessler Syndrome. The current space debris field looks much like this:

While the ultimate solution would be to bring the entire satellite back to Earth, they tend to be rather large, bulky and come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes, which is why DARPA is looking at space as a salvage yard rather than a used car lot. Since we're dealing with Kerbals, ripping parts off used satellites isn't that easy. Soooo....

The KARPA Synopsis:

Phase 1:

Launch a Satellite into geosynchronous orbit above Kerbin. It's PE must be at least 2,868.75 km.

Phase 2:

Design and launch a capture vehicle that will recover this satellite and SAFELY return it to KSC.

Phase 3:

And here's the hard part. Re-launch that same satellite back into a geosynchronous orbit.

Rules

1. There will be 2 classifications. Stock and Mods. In the mods class, any REASONABLE mod is allowed. Stock is... well stock.

2. You must create AT LEAST 2 distinct types of craft. You may use the same type vehicle in Phase 1 and 3 but NOT Phase 2.

3. Any vehicles used in Phase 1 must either be terminated or landed. Only the satellite should remain in orbit.

4. You may use claws for Phase 2 but NOT during Phase 1 or 3. (Yes, it's a challenge)

5. Your satellite MUST weight at LEAST 1 ton.

6. Once deployed the satellite must only use 4 RCS ports or ONE stock ion engine for propulsion. No other engines can be mounted.

7. You may use RCS on-board the satellite to 'park' in a lower orbit for Phase 2. The minimum PE for parking is 70 km.

8. Resource panels must be open for every required screen shot.

9. Jeb is allowed for this but please make sure it's obvious you're using it. A notation will be made on the leader-board for those that do use it.

10. Normal anti-cheating rules apply. (i.e. no hyperedit, no part clipping, etc.)

11. Any other rule I haven't yet thought of as I'm sure someone will at least try to think of a way to bypass the spirit of this challenge (though I've tried to think of everything).

Required Screenshots

1. Phase 1 launch.

2. Phase 1 satellite deployment.

3. Phase 2 launch.

4. Phase 2 satellite capture.

5. Phase 2 landing.

6. Phase 3 launch.

7. Phase 3 satellite deployment.

Scoring

Points are awarded based on satellite size. You gain 1 point for each 0.1 ton of satellite when deployed.

Bonuses

"SpaceK" - 50 pts. - Land, refuel and reuse the same vehicle for Phase 1 and 3.

"Hey, that's fragile" - 20 pts.- Don't use the claw. (40 pts. if you're flying stock.)

"Because I can." - 10 pts. - Don't use docking ports of any kind (20 pts. if you're flying stock).

"I got it... I got it." - 10 pts. - Capture the satellite at or above geosynchronous altitude.

"MPG" - 10 pts. - Complete Phase 2 without in-orbit refueling (Yes, you may dock to other ships/stations in orbit if you wish).

"OP-TASED" - ?? pts. - Stun me with your ingenuity.

"The Psychic Hotline" - MINUS 20pts - Reading the OP's mind and whining about how it doesn't 'make sense'.

Leaderboard:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

And a logo for your sig if you complete it. Please be sure to link it back to this challenge URL.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Fengist

[ihtoit]

Re: point 5: real LEO birds do/did have capture ports for the Canadarm for shuttle capture - famous example: Hubble. The ISS also has various points along its superstructure where a visiting spacecraft can literally latch on, but safely. It'd not be a great idea, for example, to latch on anywhere along the array truss - it's designed to hold the mass of the solar array (which is what, three or four tons?) in place, not a forty ton return capsule.

(yeah it's tiny, but that's a shot of the soft capture mechanism on Hubble, which is basically a pin the receiving craft enshrouds then three steel cables retract behind it to centralise the entire mechanism, which then retracts back toward the receiving craft pulling the pin with it and allows tapered shoot bolts to align and achieve a hard lock on the ring receivers in any axial orientation. It's really a much smaller version of the softdock mechanism used since the Apollo-Soyuz days).

[TJPrime]

Any vehicles used in Phase 1 must either be terminated or landed

doesn't that contradict...

Land, refuel and reuse the same vehicle for Phase 1 and 3.

?

Also, can we put two satellites into orbit and use their added masses or independent? I just noticed my satellites masses are 0.58 tons, but overall payload would be 1.16, so... which one?

Edited May 26, 2014 by TJPrime

[Benjpalmer]

doesn't that contradict...

No.

It says terminated OR landed

You can land it instead.

[Kasuha]

2. You must create AT LEAST 2 distinct types of craft. You may use the same type vehicle in Phase 1 and 3 but NOT Phase 2.

I don't get the point of this rule. First, if we have an universal craft, why should we create something "distinct". And what is "distinct" anyway? How many differences mean "distinct"?

If the point of the challenge is to bring the satellite by one ship, drop it on the ground somewhere, then load it by another ship, make a rule for that instead of making up rules that don't make sense.

Also if Claw is forbidden to return the satellite to orbit, you should prohibit any direct connections between the satellite and the lifter using any other mods as well. Such as KAS magnets or winches. Because Claw is just stock variant of these.

[Fengist]

doesn't that contradict?

KSP is a contradiction in and of itself. The bonus is if you reuse your first launch vehicle. You don't have to.

Also, can we put two satellites into orbit and use their added masses or independent? I just noticed my satellites masses are 0.58 tons, but overall payload would be 1.16, so... which one?

Sure, but here's the question, can you capture and return both at the same time?

Edited May 26, 2014 by Fengist

[Fengist]

Re: point 5: real LEO birds do/did have capture ports for the Canadarm for shuttle capture - famous example: Hubble. The ISS also has various points along its superstructure where a visiting spacecraft can literally latch on, but safely. It'd not be a great idea, for example, to latch on anywhere along the array truss - it's designed to hold the mass of the solar array (which is what, three or four tons?) in place, not a forty ton return capsule.

Please explain this to Romfarer so that in the future he can add this to Canadaarm Mod. Maybe that will prevent things from randomly exploding when you magnetize them.

And just to confirm, if you're brave enough to use them, Romfarer's arms are fair game.

[Fengist]

I don't get the point of this rule. First, if we have an universal craft, why should we create something "distinct". And what is "distinct" anyway? How many differences mean "distinct"?

dis·tinct (disˈtiNGkt) - adjective - 1. recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type. 2.readily distinguishable by the senses.

The reason is, hang tight this is gonna sound... realistic... with the DARPA solicitation it's pretty much assumed that the company/group that launches a satellite isn't going to be the same ones who salvage it. AND, if they are, there's a pretty good chance they'll have to design a completely different vehicle to do so.

Here's what I'm trying to accomplish: I don't want someone to use a pod with a clamp jr on it's nose to deploy, capture and deploy again using the same vehicle. In the 'real world' there's no guarantee that a satellite will have a clamp jr on it or any clamp at all for that matter. This is not about creating a universal vehicle, but universal capture vehicle. The 3rd launch is merely following the DARPA idea of reusing parts.

I'm more interested in the capture method than anything else but I also realize you're probably going to use the same exact method for all 3 launches. I'd like to see the capture vehicle at least look the part and not look like a pod with a clamp.

If the point of the challenge is to bring the satellite by one ship, drop it on the ground somewhere, then load it by another ship, make a rule for that instead of making up rules that don't make sense.

If it didn't make sense, how did you make sense of it?

Also if Claw is forbidden to return the satellite to orbit, you should prohibit any direct connections between the satellite and the lifter using any other mods as well. Such as KAS magnets or winches. Because Claw is just stock variant of these.

I realize the claw is a variant. HOWEVER... oh god, here's that word again... 'realistically' speaking if you were to grab a satellite with something that looks like it belongs on logging equipment, the chances of delivering anything other than scrap dramatically decrease. This is about re-use, not re-cycling. And yea, I realize a magnet would probably be seriously detrimental to electronics... but there are other ways to use KAS. As I clearly stated, I'm not even sure it can be done stock without the claw in all 3 launches. I'm curious to see what people come up with as a substitute.

[the_bT]

I'd like to try this I think...

Just one thing: Suppose I launch the required satellite (sans docking ports) with whatever launch vehicle. Then I recover it with a different craft using a claw and land it. Now my recovery craft sits next to KSC (hopefully) with the satellite attached.

I do have to launch that exact satellite again right? It has no docking port and I'm not allowed to use a claw. Stock only, I see no way that could be done except the rather dodgy proposal of putting it in some sort of basket and flying the whole ascend under thrust so it won't fall out. Sure, might be doable I guess...

But seriously...

Edit: just had a random idea... Point is launched satellite and recovery craft are of different origin right, why not launch satellite, next person recovers, launches next, provides quicksave. Would need to be stock only then but might be fun...

Edited May 26, 2014 by the_bT

[SirJodelstein]

I have an entry coming up working in pure stock. But since only collision detection is keeping the captured satellite where it needs to be, the trips to and from geostationary orbit cannot be timewarped. This will take a while, even with 4x physics warp.

Sneak peek from phase 1:

Edited May 26, 2014 by SirJodelstein

[ihtoit]

Please explain this to Romfarer so that in the future he can add this to Canadaarm Mod. Maybe that will prevent things from randomly exploding when you magnetize them.

And just to confirm, if you're brave enough to use them, Romfarer's arms are fair game.

it should be pretty simple to add this in KSP (not that I'll even attempt it, having never built a mod part ever - I'm just referring to the complexity of some other mods I've seen).

Basically, you've got an attachment for the arm which is a camera and a capture mechanism combined, or a complete arm and capture mechanism as a single articulated part. The trick is to align the target in the camera (which'll have an aiming reticle as the real thing does), and use RCS and elbowing manoeuvres in a combined effort to make capture (some sort of "smart reach" thing going here? Too much for KSP? Or should it be down to the pilots' manoeuvering skills (or lack thereof!) to within manipulation range, locking relative velocity and orientation and terminal elbowing into position?). The satellite module is completely passive and looks and functions precisely as the Hubble module does - a pin and boltholes, basically, which attaches to any outward facing part of the superstructure. This could even be a KAS-equippable stow part, which'd be useful on larger pieces. EVA with a tube of Krazy Glue and a module, slap it on the side of the tank, grab the thing and drag it on home.

[Kasuha]

dis·tinct (disˈtiNGkt) - adjective - 1. recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type. 2.readily distinguishable by the senses.

Thanks for pointless lesson. If you feel so good to teach others english, maybe you could also learn the difference between "it's" and "its".

And you did not answer my question. So once again: how can I tell two ships are distinct? Do I need to bring you examples?

The reason is, hang tight this is gonna sound... realistic... with the DARPA solicitation it's pretty much assumed that the company/group that launches a satellite isn't going to be the same ones who salvage it. AND, if they are, there's a pretty good chance they'll have to design a completely different vehicle to do so.

If you want to be realistic, you should prohibit SSTOs. Because if SSTOs were possible in real world, I am pretty sure DARPA would not assume they need to be different crafts. Space shuttle was both sending satellites in orbit and bringing satellites back from orbit (although the latter much less frequently). DARPA is looking for ways how to do it cheap - cheaper than with a shuttle. Guess why.

I realize the claw is a variant. HOWEVER... oh god, here's that word again... 'realistically' speaking if you were to grab a satellite with something that looks like it belongs on logging equipment, the chances of delivering anything other than scrap dramatically decrease. This is about re-use, not re-cycling. And yea, I realize a magnet would probably be seriously detrimental to electronics... but there are other ways to use KAS. As I clearly stated, I'm not even sure it can be done stock without the claw in all 3 launches. I'm curious to see what people come up with as a substitute.

Prohibiting Claw if you don't think it can be done without it is irrational. It's a grabbing device and if you watch closely, it does not sink its arms into the target when it catches it. Your rule is nothing but intentional handicap put on stock solutions.

I'm pretty sure DARPA does not prohibit any particular techniques as long as the satellite is not damaged.

If you need to promote KAS or any other particular mod, just put it into rules. If you don't need to promote mods, there's no need to put any other but technical restrictions. So it's either allow or prohibit physical joint between the two ships.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Kasuha

[ihtoit]

meh, we dun need no steenkin' 23.5 claw part... not when one of my old .22 challenges was answered with a MIRV equipped with landing legs for clawfingers!

HAVING SAID THAT, I wonder, if NASA know what's up there, they'll also be able to make a fairly educated guess as to its precise dimensions and be able to send up specific missions to retrieve those specific birds using specifically-shaped shrouds/frames (if they really want to preserve the condition of the bird, that's the best way with a robot, to enclose it in a snug-fitting shroud) which in an ideal world will even act as a heatshield (assuming that no comsat was sent up with a heatshield!)

Edited May 27, 2014 by ihtoit

[Kasuha]

I have an entry coming up working in pure stock. But since only collision detection is keeping the captured satellite where it needs to be, the trips to and from geostationary orbit cannot be timewarped. This will take a while, even with 4x physics warp.

You can slow it down, release it from the container, time warp till you're near the atmosphere and catch it again right before reentry. There's no need to keep it contained all through the space travel.

[Fengist]

I have an entry coming up working in pure stock. But since only collision detection is keeping the captured satellite where it needs to be, the trips to and from geostationary orbit cannot be timewarped. This will take a while, even with 4x physics warp.

Please keep me updated. You and ihtoit seem to think it's possible. Since I'm not a huge fan of all stock, I'll defer to your judgement here. If you two say it can be done, the rules stay. If not, I'll open things up for stock.

[ihtoit]

I think it might have been my Planetes challenge that spawned the Claw as a stock part... there again I might be wrong.

[Fengist]

I just did some testing and as ihtoit said, you don't need no stinking claw. The rules stay.

I just lifted a satellite off the VAB launch pad with a stock VTOL to 10km, flew around a bit and redeposited it on the VAB roof. It was not attached in any way, no clamps, no claw. FURTHERMORE... I also deployed an unattached satellite to geo orbit with no clamps, no claw using stock parts and ran warp 4 almost the entire way. Undamaged.

Therefore, it is ENTIRELY possible to do this stock.

This has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike stock parts, my desire to cripple those that do challenges completely stock or any desire I have to promote one mod over another. This has everything to do with ingenuity. If you wish to challenge yourself further and do this entirely stock, have at it. I'm convinced it can be done. There is a reason stock is a separate category, bragging rights.

[Kasuha]

I just did some testing and as ihtoit said, you don't need no stinking claw. The rules stay.

You might notice that the only thing I'm asking for is you to make your rules fair. If no claw, then no winches or grapples from mods, either. Or both.

[Hodo]

You might notice that the only thing I'm asking for is you to make your rules fair. If no claw, then no winches or grapples from mods, either. Or both.

You always seem to have problems with any challenge that isn't favorable to you. I would counter your last suggestion with this, no grappling hooks but electro magnets and radial attachment ports would be fine.

FYI I recover my satellites with a stock docking port and pilot skill. You can use a docking port if you design your satellites correctly.

[Kasuha]

You always seem to have problems with any challenge that isn't favorable to you.

I always have problem with challenges that look intriguiging at first glance but make no sense when reading the fine print.

I am pretty sure the DARPA winner deorbiting ship will have something by which it will grab the satellite. Because in real world, it is not considered safe to transport a satellite without fixing it before applying acceleration to it. Yet in this challenge, OP prohibits any stock ways of fixing a satellite (docking and Claw). But you are free to fix it with a mod part which essentially does the same thing. Makes sense? Nope. Not in realism sense, not in game mechanic sense, it's just arbitrary rule imposed on the challenge because OP does not like the Claw.

FYI I recover my satellites with a stock docking port and pilot skill. You can use a docking port if you design your satellites correctly.

5. You may NOT use any clampotrons of any size.

Of course I have no problems deorbiting and reorbiting a satellite without physically tying it with a ship. But I don't think doing so is worth the effort if you can do it with a mod using much less effort for the same prize.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Kasuha

[Claw]

Wait. So if I'm going to do a stock challenge, I have to capture and return a satellite basically without ever attaching it to my craft (well, I suppose I can take the claw penalty on return). But then I have to transfer it to another craft, without attaching to it, and launch it again?

Sure, I've done the first part repeatedly (capture and return without a claw or docking port). But if you're going for "realism," I'd say it's pretty unrealistic to think that people aren't going to attach said satellite to the new craft, but it must dangle on whatever surface you set it on. Sure, I get why you wouldn't crush onto a new satellite with a claw like device (not that I have many choices with stock). But why can't you use a docking port as a decoupler substitute? I'm pretty sure "real world" reuse wouldn't be restricted from bolting it onto the new craft. I somehow doubt people would be happy with letting a billion dollar satellite free float inside some sort of cage. Plus you have to get pretty creative in stock to lift stuff to begin with, since there are no hinges or that sort of thing.

And while you can capture pretty easy in stock, the problem if you don't allow a connection is that it takes for freaking ever to get somewhere because when you time warp they separate. So you're stuck with the option of no time warp and literally waiting the half hour, or time warp and do the whole capture operation again (which is a real bear on the night side). Nor can I warp during the relaunch. I know Kasuha suggested this, but it's a god awful pain when you can only time warp 10-15 minutes at a time, then you have to course correct so the two craft don't get multiple km apart.

Also:

11. Normal anti-cheating rules apply. (i.e. no hyperedit, no part clipping, etc.)

No part clipping? Is that "no ALT-F12" part clipping or just none at all? (Not that I know what part clipping benefits you in this challenge. Size?)

Sorry, I'm not trying to nitpick or anything. I actually clicked on this challenge (and feel compelled to do it) because I use a phoenix as my avatar. Plus my sandbox game is Phoenix Industries. Anywho, it sounds like an interesting challenge, but using "realism" as a basis for not allowing me to attach to the satellite makes it kind of painful for pain sake. Really, if you could use the docking port for Phase 3, that would help (since you allow claw with penalty in phase 2). Recover without attachment is easier than launch without attachment anyway, so phase 3 is really where you need it.

[ihtoit]

that's a shot from your entry in the Planetes challenge, isn't it?

[Claw]

that's a shot from your entry in the Planetes challenge, isn't it?

Indeed it is.

[Fengist]

Wait. So if I'm going to do a stock challenge, I have to capture and return a satellite basically without ever attaching it to my craft (well, I suppose I can take the claw penalty on return). But then I have to transfer it to another craft, without attaching to it, and launch it again?

Sure, I've done the first part repeatedly (capture and return without a claw or docking port). But if you're going for "realism," I'd say it's pretty unrealistic to think that people aren't going to attach said satellite to the new craft, but it must dangle on whatever surface you set it on. Sure, I get why you wouldn't crush onto a new satellite with a claw like device (not that I have many choices with stock). But why can't you use a docking port as a decoupler substitute? I'm pretty sure "real world" reuse wouldn't be restricted from bolting it onto the new craft. I somehow doubt people would be happy with letting a billion dollar satellite free float inside some sort of cage. Plus you have to get pretty creative in stock to lift stuff to begin with, since there are no hinges or that sort of thing.

And while you can capture pretty easy in stock, the problem if you don't allow a connection is that it takes for freaking ever to get somewhere because when you time warp they separate. So you're stuck with the option of no time warp and literally waiting the half hour, or time warp and do the whole capture operation again (which is a real bear on the night side). Nor can I warp during the relaunch. I know Kasuha suggested this, but it's a god awful pain when you can only time warp 10-15 minutes at a time, then you have to course correct so the two craft don't get multiple km apart.

Also:

No part clipping? Is that "no ALT-F12" part clipping or just none at all? (Not that I know what part clipping benefits you in this challenge. Size?)

Sorry, I'm not trying to nitpick or anything. I actually clicked on this challenge (and feel compelled to do it) because I use a phoenix as my avatar. Plus my sandbox game is Phoenix Industries. Anywho, it sounds like an interesting challenge, but using "realism" as a basis for not allowing me to attach to the satellite makes it kind of painful for pain sake. Really, if you could use the docking port for Phase 3, that would help (since you allow claw with penalty in phase 2). Recover without attachment is easier than launch without attachment anyway, so phase 3 is really where you need it.

Finally, someone who gave me a good logical reason for ports.

It's now been converted to a bonus. Ports allowed.

As for part clipping... use your judgement here. If it feels like cheating, if you're worried I might 'see' something and disqualify you then it probably is cheating.

[Fengist]

I always have problem with challenges that look intriguiging at first glance but make no sense when reading the fine print.

I am pretty sure the DARPA winner deorbiting ship will have something by which it will grab the satellite. Because in real world, it is not considered safe to transport a satellite without fixing it before applying acceleration to it. Yet in this challenge, OP prohibits any stock ways of fixing a satellite (docking and Claw). But you are free to fix it with a mod part which essentially does the same thing. Makes sense? Nope. Not in realism sense, not in game mechanic sense, it's just arbitrary rule imposed on the challenge because OP does not like the Claw.

5. You may NOT use any clampotrons of any size.

Of course I have no problems deorbiting and reorbiting a satellite without physically tying it with a ship. But I don't think doing so is worth the effort if you can do it with a mod using much less effort for the same prize.

Since you now have the ability to read my mind and have decided to proclaim to the world that:

1. I'm trying to promote some mod over another as if I'm on a salary.

2. I hate the claw regardless of the fact that I've never so much as even attached one to a ship since they came out (quite frankly, I have no reason to use one).

I have thought up a brand new bonus.