Beale

[1.7.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [18.0][14/07/2019]

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The outline of the 1.625 size rocket looks very beautiful.
Implementing a thin adapter that leads to 1.5 sizes should solve the compatibility problem. I am sorry if this is a naive opinion
Thank you for making a great mod.
I hope the translation is correct

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Posted (edited)

Just making my usual 6 monthly visit. While I'm here, I'll vote for the 1.5m variant.

Curious though - is there a reason you couldn't do both options? I assume it's not a texturing issue, is it a mesh switching issue instead?

Not asking for both, mind you. I think the 1.5m looks better imo. Just wondering what the limitations are.

Disregard the above. Brain functions much better after sleep.

Edited by Fly Angry
I'm not very bright when I'm tired.

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Posted (edited)

The thing onebody was asking for, but what they actually needed:

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Edited by Beale

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Its been a while since I built a Mir so I thought I would revisit it and check out Beale's revamped FGB bits.

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Docking Kvant-1 to the core

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First crew arrives. Had to send an engineer with KIS tools to re-position the masts which I got backwards :confused: (the long mast IRL had a thruster at the end but the magnetometers from DMagic and Probes plus are a good visual stand in). I think the long mast (sofora) ended up too long as well, might send up a replacement later, reduce the tweakscale from 200% to 150% or so...

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Arrival of the Kvant-2 module

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And then Kristall. The real thing was initially placed opposite Kvant 2 before being moved but I am going for the final configuration. Just for the screenshots perhaps I will follow the IRL procedure for the next module which is to dock to the inline port first before moving to a radial position.

MfoApb1h.png

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I might also send up a shorter replacement solar panel for Kristall to represent its partially folded state 

xF2uAkMh.png

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2 hours ago, Zorg said:

Its been a while since I built a Mir so I thought I would revisit it and check out Beale's revamped FGB bits.

Docking Kvant-1 to the core

Gi953jph.png

First crew arrives. Had to send an engineer with KIS tools to re-position the masts which I got backwards :confused: (the long mast IRL had a thruster at the end but the magnetometers from DMagic and Probes plus are a good visual stand in). I think the long mast (sofora) ended up too long as well, might send up a replacement later, reduce the tweakscale from 200% to 150% or so...

Arrival of the Kvant-2 module

And then Kristall. The real thing was initially placed opposite Kvant 2 before being moved but I am going for the final configuration. Just for the screenshots perhaps I will follow the IRL procedure for the next module which is to dock to the inline port first before moving to a radial position.

LOFbzQFh.png

I might also send up a shorter replacement solar panel for Kristall to represent its partially folded state 

×

This is seriously cool! You have a way with screenshots :D
Interested to know where you got this Proton fairing?

 

 

Soyuz tanks.

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3 hours ago, Beale said:

The thing nobody was asking for, but what they actually needed:

:mad:

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Can't seem to vote on the "1.5m Diameter Parts in General" poll but I'll comment anyway.

I kinda like the original 1.25 stuff. Back when I was starting work on my own Soyuz-style parts I was going to go with 1.6ish as well, but 1.25m seemed a better fit. I don't know why, maybe just because of simplicity matching up with other mod parts at the time.

But 1.5m looks good too, especially since everything else I would want to use with the Soyuz rocket is already in the Tantares packs. Worrying about what other mods it will match up with is kinda irrelevant.

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15 hours ago, Fly Angry said:

But 1.5m looks good too, especially since everything else I would want to use with the Soyuz rocket is already in the Tantares packs. Worrying about what other mods it will match up with is kinda irrelevant.

Pretty good point!

 

 

 

 

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On 4/18/2019 at 2:49 AM, Fly Angry said:

Can't seem to vote on the "1.5m Diameter Parts in General" poll but I'll comment anyway.

I kinda like the original 1.25 stuff. Back when I was starting work on my own Soyuz-style parts I was going to go with 1.6ish as well, but 1.25m seemed a better fit. I don't know why, maybe just because of simplicity matching up with other mod parts at the time.

But 1.5m looks good too, especially since everything else I would want to use with the Soyuz rocket is already in the Tantares packs. Worrying about what other mods it will match up with is kinda irrelevant.

I too can not vote on the 2nd phase of the voteing above.    What Fly Angry said is his opinion...Mine differs significantly  TL:DR version first

1) While I LOVE making historical Rockets....  AB-Historical is MORE FUN.   I want the ability to do WHAT IFF and that means multi-mod integration.

2) Soyuz feels TINY (I know IRL it IS tiny but it is NOT half the diameter of Apollo....)  Almost ALL Apollo mods in game use 2.5m for the capsule.   Making Soyuz 1.25 makes it too small.   If Soyuz was a 1 Kerbal craft then MAYBE I could see 1.25 size. 

3) I asked a question early on in this discussion about other parts being/needing to be made to whatever new size you Choose Beale.  at the time it sounded like you were going to make a single model and then release a set of CFGs with various rescales in them. 

================================================================================

Before I get to my full comment: Hidden here is my "concerns" about all the people trying to religiously stick to squad scales....    It includes a brief history of HOW Squad got it's sizes.
 

Spoiler

As my Profile states I am more than a bit of a historian.  While I have not spent a HUGE amount of time researching this I do remember a lot of what went on when it came to "STOCK" Sizes.   I remember when I first started playing KSP there were like 6 2.5m parts and EVERYTHING ELSE was 1.25m.   And those six parts were cast-offs of a Mod that had just merged with another and the duplicate parts were better looking.   I had to download mods (FASA, NovaPunch and KW Rocketry) to get more parts at 2.5m.   Later these same mods added 3.75m and eventually 5m sizes....   Others upgraded 5m to 5.625m.... etc etc.  

For all of you who only request officialLY designed squad Sizes: The Only SQUAD designed size (and their-for the only STOCK size) is 1.25m!   If you want to play TRUE STOCK you need to remove ALL parts that are not EXACTLY 1.25m in size....   Every other size was adopted from pre existing mods (RLA for 0.625, NovaPunch for 2.5m, HGR/BDB for 1.875m)

All the original 2.5m parts were made by Tiberion and he graciously allowed Squad to use his parts when his mod merged with another to become NovaPunch.    Seriously... Find and open up the Orange x64 tank... Who is in the credit as author?  Tiberion...   All parts developed by the Original Squad team say SQUAD for author.   Now 1.25m is great if you want to make a single crew Capsule... Remember all of the Squad 1.25m parts are a single crew member wide. (look at the 1.25m Airliner cabin for a great example... a crew of 2... and they are INLINE not side by side.)    

Ok now that I have my little rant about people complaining about non "stock" sizes out of the way (and that is important for the coming lines.)  

Beale,  the way I am reading your posts... It seems like you do not want to use 1.5m for a good scale size.  YES I understand that 1.625m is exactly 0.64 of IRL R-7 dimensions and therefor more accurate but in your own words... Nothing else, in your mod would use that size.... That makes the R-7 parts using that size useless to me.   My main concern is you have 1.5x other mods (one isn't supported by you anymore and no that was not an intentional pun!) that use 1.5m... Why wouldn't you want others to use all your mods together to mix and match something neat?   I mean what if I want to launch a BLACK ARROW from atop your R-7.  Sure in the real world it wouldn't happen.  But in KSP it might lead to the R-7 becoming a major player in the inter-galactic plani... err stupid Beasty Boys!... err Interplanetary probe launcher.   Something it really didn't excel at IRL

====================================================================================

Beale. This is your mod and you do what YOU want to.   I am just sharing my opinion here.

If you are looking to do exact scale models... Dive into the 1.625m size...   But many of us who do not like RSS/RO would likely NOT like that size.  And as I understand it the RSS/RO people wouldn't care so long as all the parts were correct to ANY  SINGLE scale and with enough detail level to see the good work when scaled up to full size (if I am wrong someone from the RSS/RO would please correct me.)

If you want to keep the R-7 in it's "way under-scaled" 1.25m size   GO FOR IT..  It is your mod.  Do what you wish.  OK way under scaled is my opinion as well :)

 

To the subject at hand.  I don't want 1.5m parts for 1.5m sake. I want parts that MAKE SENSE to be 1.5m to be that size so that I CAN use it with other parts.   

As I see the list of sizes 0.625m and above used by multiple mods:

0.625, 0.9375, 1.25, 1.5, 1.875, 2.5, 3.125, 3.75, 5, 5.625, and there are several sizes out there larger until you get to 10m (SSTU) 

 

I would like to see 0.5m considered a "standard" size, as well as 0.3125m, 6.5m, 9.75m and 10.5

0.5m for Sounding rockets

0.3125m for sounding rockets and early space probes

6.5m for near 0.64 scale Saturn size

9.75m for a near to 0.64 scale NOVA size...

10.5m, 4.25m,  for near 0.64 scale N-1..  Yes an exact scale model of the N-1 at any size is impossible to make "Lego Block" worthy. but these two sizes in addition to the list above covers all the diamters CLOSE 

Yes I would LOVE to see your N-1 have a 10.5m Base diameter!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pappystein said:

-snip-

Sorry, I still have quite a bit of difficulty reading larger posts sometimes,
Not sure what you are trying to say?

 

 

I have played around with the poll, not sure why some cannot vote :(

 

 

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Edited by Beale

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1 hour ago, Beale said:

I have played around with the poll, not sure why some cannot vote :(

There was a 2nd poll that showed up around 1.5m only.   those of us who had already answered the first poll couldn't answer it.  You seem to have removed it so no issue.

1 hour ago, Beale said:

Sorry, I still have quite a bit of difficulty reading larger posts sometimes,
Not sure what you are trying to say?

 

1) While I LOVE making historical Rockets....  Alternate-Historical is MORE FUN for me.   I want the ability to do WHAT IF and that means multi-mod integration. 

 

In the end, it is your mod so please DO WHAT YOU WANT.    But using sizes that are unique to only the R-7/Soyuz  makes the parts nearly useless to a lot of us players.    

RE post length, sorry I can get long winded in a post... my IRL job requires me to over-communicate and that now extends into my free time.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

In the end, it is your mod so please DO WHAT YOU WANT.    But using sizes that are unique to only the R-7/Soyuz  makes the parts nearly useless to a lot of us players.   

Ah okay, I follow.

Well I guess it is important to stress that both the 1.25m and 1.875m Soyuz tanks will still be available (And the 1.5 tanks are already in Tantares, if hidden by default) on top of whatever else, but for the 1.5m tanks we have options:

  • Don't include them.
  • Add them as a mesh variant for the 1.25m tanks (Visual only).
  • Add them as full parts (Fuel amounts correct, etc), hidden by default by a deletable MM patch.
  • Add them as B9PS variants, hidden by default by MM patch,
  • Add them as mesh variant, but hidden by MM patch by default (this is the softest softest approach).

2 & 3 are pretty comparable to the current setup.  4 Is interesting, but open to hear thoughts.

Edited by Beale

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Beale said:

Ah okay, I follow.

Well I guess it is important to stress that both the 1.25m and 1.875m Soyuz tanks will still be available (And the 1.5 tanks are already in Tantares, if hidden by default) on top of whatever else, but for the 1.5m tanks we have options:

  • Don't include them.
  • Add them as a mesh variant for the 1.25m tanks (Visual only).
  • Add them as full parts (Fuel amounts correct, etc), hidden by default by a deletable MM patch. 
  • Add them as B9PS variants, hidden by default by MM patch,
  • Add them as mesh variant, but hidden by MM patch by default (this is the softest softest approach).

2 & 3 are pretty comparable to the current setup.  4 Is interesting, but open to hear thoughts.

Kinda leaning towards 3, but 2 might be better if you want to avoid a jungle of parts for users to wade through in the editor.

But option 4... That would be neat.

Edit - just had a read about B9. Very neat.

Edited by Fly Angry
stuff. things.

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Option 4 is interesting, as the people who are likely to want to mix and match mods probably have a good overlap with the people who have B9PS installed.

separately, the parts are looking very nice!

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Posted (edited)

I particularly never felt the need for compatible parts as I always used tweakscale, allowing me to fit almost anything into anything else. But damn, in six monts or so KSP changed some 3 verisons already, and I gotta tell ya, that puts me off. When I finally got my 1.4.something running with almost all the moods I like, they changed it again and again and again..... aaach!

Well, back to the point: tantares only needs to focus on its unique and particular parts, which is what it is doing best. Big ass tanks are only for lifters. In my playstyle, I like saving sub-assemblies, as a repertoire of tested and tried lower stages, and the only time I feel thet dont match tantares parts is when I place a complex tantares craft above the dumber lower stages, and the fitting becomes weird. There is no need for 1.5 big cilindrical tanks if stock, heavy lifters or other big rocket parts mod already has them - but ADAPTERS of all sorts and sizes would be welcome, even if they deviate slightly from actual RL soviet parts.

Edited by Daniel Prates

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Posted (edited)

Thank you greatly for the feedback guys.
Well, optional tanks if you just happen to have B9PS installed sounds good to me? (Not to close the discussion, keep going if you want :) )

 

Speaking of adapters, the Soyuz needs a few (+ some bonus adapters).
Thanks to some texture tricks these are fitting all on a little block of tiled islands, neat!

Kosmos filling in for 1st stage duty.

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Edited by Beale

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Soyuz upper stage, 1.25m and 1.875m tanks. (They are of course unique and not just scales).

2Rsx7pN.png

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I like the adds you are doing.  It really shows the Krussian strategy of incremental changes. 

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15 minutes ago, Beale said:


3vf9pYY.png
 

When pigs fly...into space! Also, a question: will all of those adapter tanks be separate parts or B9PS variants?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Saltshaker said:

When pigs fly...into space! Also, a question: will all of those adapter tanks be separate parts or B9PS variants?

I will refer to the last few posts of discussion :sticktongue:

I think yes, the easiest way to do it will be (optional) B9PS intergration, if you don't have B9PS installed the parts are just not present (Unless there is any objections to this).

Edited by Beale

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Posted (edited)

 

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Vi førsokte å stoppe det, vi mislyktes...

Edited by Beale

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Posted (edited)

@Beale if you have the energy for it, maybe you could consider adding a Tantaresalized Mig-105, or something like it. High performance airplanes like it or the X-15 were an important early phase of spaceflight and those machines are almost absent from KSP in general, which is a pity.

Edited by Daniel Prates

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