Are EVA landings a science mining exploit?

[katateochi]

I'm starting a new stock career and my goal is to do it in the fewest launches and in the shortest in-game time. I've got an entry tier craft that can make it to Minmus, land and return to orbit and then transfer to a low Mun orbit before returning home. I'm currently parked in a low Minmus orbit after having landed once and I realised that I didn't really need to land the craft, I could just do an EVA landing. So Jeb went EVA and descended to the surface and got another surface sample and EVA report from a different biome before jet-packing back up to his craft.

Now, I can just keep doing this and hit each/most of the biomes on Minmus (gaining about 190 points each time) without actually expending any of the crafts resources. When Jeb re boards the craft his EVA fuel is restocked and he can depart again. I'm essentially making use of a pool of totally free dV. So, is this an exploit that enables me to gain more science than I really should?

There is a flip-side to using this free dV: returning to the craft is not all that easy. You have to rendezvous with the craft by eye, there is no nav-ball to guide you, so you have to use landmarks to get the right heading. You can plot M-nodes but you can't orient yourself to them and the time to node isn't displayed. EVA thrusters can be controlled from in map mode, so you can make adjustments to bring you close to a planned maneuver, but sometimes your heading drifts off while in map mode so you have to be careful not to suddenly veer off course and waste fuel.

I've done 3 EVA landings now and each time I've returned with only just enough EVA fuel, so it cuts it pretty fine. It's a fairly risky way to get those precious science points.

So what do you guys think? Are EVA landings a 'cheaty' way to gain more science, or do the extra challenges posed by them make it an acceptable approach?

In my mind I'm justifying the use of this "free dV" because its kinda tricky (and also quite fun) and also by offsetting it against the RCS fuel in the command pod as well as some of my main fuel. I plan to return with a bit of excess fuel to roughly account for the mass of EVA fuel that I've consumed.

[SpenSpaceCorp]

I think it is justified (partly because Minmus is one of the few bodies that can allow that), but I would like to see in the future EVA fuel use resources such as monopropellant from the tanks or default little bit in each capsule. That way, it balances it out whilst adding realism to an extent.

[Superfluous J]

There is no cheating in this game.

That said, EVAing down to Minmus and back up to an orbiting craft (I've done it) is hard enough to justify the "free" 190 science you got.

Technically you could walk/swim to every biome on Kerbin and get "free" science too. I wouldn't consider that cheating either

[Wallace]

you can bounce about Minmus with a pathetically small lander hovering up science far more easily than EVAing down and doing the blind rendezvous.

Sure they could make EVAs use up mono propellant, but slap a couple of cylinder tanks on your ship and you'd have mono-prop coming out the wazzo, easily enough to EVA to every biome.

I've done the EVA nav-ball-less rendezvous a few times in emergencies and honestly if you can be bothered with doing it, then you've earned that surface sample fair and square.

[Liowen]

Technically you could walk/swim to every biome on Kerbin and get "free" science too. I wouldn't consider that cheating either

I wouldn't consider it cheating either...... although you might have masochistic issues, but not a cheater.

[regex]

You dirty, filthy cheater. You're almost as bad as those people who use that one autopilot mod that takes all the skill out of the game.

[katateochi]

I think it is justified (partly because Minmus is one of the few bodies that can allow that), but I would like to see in the future EVA fuel use resources such as monopropellant from the tanks or default little bit in each capsule. That way, it balances it out whilst adding realism to an extent.

Yeah I'd like to see an EVA resource too. Have enough EVA fuel in the command pods to re-fuel each kerbal once, and then have an RCS like tank to bring more if you want.

There is no cheating in this game.

That said, EVAing down to Minmus and back up to an orbiting craft (I've done it) is hard enough to justify the "free" 190 science you got.

Technically you could walk/swim to every biome on Kerbin and get "free" science too. I wouldn't consider that cheating either

"But I would walk five hundred (thousand) miles, And I would walk five hundred (thousand) more, ...."

You dirty, filthy cheater. You're almost as bad as those people who use that one autopilot mod that takes all the skill out of the game.

oh you...

So I've now done 8 EVA landings and return to craft in a row and I'm kinda tired!! When "launching" from a flat bit of ground where I could just gain horizontal speed I've got it really locked down. The ones where I was near a hill and had to take off more vertically where harder, but the really challenging ones were where I had to make changes to the orbits plane too. Almost didn't make it back on one return, but Jeb prevailed!

So my first mission with just starting tier parts was a success, after the EVA adventures on Minmus I swung by Mun and did a few low orbits to get more readings and then finally returned home with about 7l of fuel spare (not quite as much as I'd planned, but whatever!). The mission returned 2194 science points!!!

[SciMan]

Having never (in any KSP version) attempted a landing from orbit on only the EVA pack, I don't know if it's an exploit or not.

... That being said, returning 2194 science with just the starting tier parts is remarkably efficient. I bet you could base a challenge thread on something like that. Of course you might want to make a couple of separate sections, one that allows EVA landings and one that does not.

[Mipe]

And after you've science-bombed half the tech tree, the career mode quickly loses its charm...

[KSK]

A very minor exploit in my opinion and since all the capsules come with monopropellant (even though you're nowhere near unlocking RCS), you could even hand-wave that exploit away as 'Jeb was using capsule supplies to refuel his EVA pack.' Besides I completely agree that if you have the skill and patience to do multiple EVA pack rendezvous that you've earned those science points anyway!

[pauix]

If you can perform an EVA-rendezvous, you're more than ready for interplanetary trips. And if you're ready for interplanetary trips, unlocking nodes in the tech tree until you have the parts needed for interplanetary travels shouldn't take you ages.

[Moss]

The game is in Alpha. There is no cheating.

[Kasuha]

EVA landing sure is not an exploit.

Unlimited EVA propellant in each capsule does not sound fair and hopefully will get resolved in some future release but while it's here it's fine to be used IMO.

[katateochi]

Having never (in any KSP version) attempted a landing from orbit on only the EVA pack, I don't know if it's an exploit or not.

... That being said, returning 2194 science with just the starting tier parts is remarkably efficient. I bet you could base a challenge thread on something like that. Of course you might want to make a couple of separate sections, one that allows EVA landings and one that does not.

I think there have been some challenges like that, but I think they where around when career first came out so they're kinda old threads now. Maybe I should make a new one?

And after you've science-bombed half the tech tree, the career mode quickly loses its charm...

I really enjoy "science-bombing" and its basically my mission to come up with some kinda since cluster bomb! For me career is about trying to do it in the fewest possible launches (and in this case, also the shortest possible in-game time). I'm hoping to get this career done with just two launches

If you can perform an EVA-rendezvous, you're more than ready for interplanetary trips. And if you're ready for interplanetary trips, unlocking nodes in the tech tree until you have the parts needed for interplanetary travels shouldn't take you ages.

For sure, but in this case I'm aiming for the shortest in-game time to get full unlock which basically limits me to the Kerbin system (and also I'm going for full unlock in 2 launches). The Kerbin people have realised the imminent threat of incoming asteroids and need to get their space program up and running in just a couple months so they can defend themselves in time! If they go interplanetary it will be too late!

[Tw1]

You call that an exploit? This is an exploit...

(↓simulation only↓)

Sooon...

If you ask me, I find it a good thing kerbals are a little OP. I hope someday we get both improvements to unmanned science- like sampling drills, and some simple life support that's required for kerbals. The OP-ness of the kerbal will hopefully counter out added difficulty added by life support, and make them at least a match for the unmanned probe.

The fact that kerbals do a lot of other things ships can't. They tend to bounce better than most rovers...

Though I would not be opposed to it, if EVA propellant was made finite. As long as it wasn't to hard to bring plenty for antics.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Tw1

[Duke23]

I'd have to agree that this isn't so much of an exploit as a challenge. Would I use it to farm science? I don't know, never really thought about it. Emergency situations or just for the challenge? Heck yes, adding that to my mental to do list in fact.

I actually haven't done an EVA rendezvous from the surface but I've done it in orbit when I couldn't get a rescue ship closer than a few km to save my life. I'm not sure how that was any easier but it worked, whatever I was a noob lol.

[LethalDose]

Are EVA landings a science mining exploit?

Man, if it is, I don't know what to call it when you park a station with fuel and an MPL in orbit around Minmus with a lander that has all the science tools, 2 mystery goo containers and 2 materials bays...

[SkyRender]

The original plan was for Kerbals to draw from the monopropellant stock on board their ship when going out on EVA, but that somehow never got implemented even though monoprop was added to every command module. But yeah, there's not really anything "cheat-y" about it, since it will inevitably get fixed at some point. In the meantime, EVA to Minmus to your heart's content. I know I managed to unlock the entire stock tech tree in 2 launches thanks to that "feature".

[NASAHireMe]

You call that an exploit? This is an exploit...

What is going on here? Can you explain this a bit more? From what I can tell, it's like some weird infiniglide exploit except with Kerbals on EVA?

And to the original poster, I agree with everyone else. It's not really an exploit. I did the same thing-- 4 EVA hops to get a ton of each Minmus science. I got real tired of doing rendezvous, though, even though I usually manage to make it back to the ship with 1 unit of propellant. Props to you for the patience.

[SAI Peregrinus]

What is going on here? Can you explain this a bit more? From what I can tell, it's like some weird infiniglide exploit except with Kerbals on EVA?

And to the original poster, I agree with everyone else. It's not really an exploit. I did the same thing-- 4 EVA hops to get a ton of each Minmus science. I got real tired of doing rendezvous, though, even though I usually manage to make it back to the ship with 1 unit of propellant. Props to you for the patience.

It was a "kraken drive" exploiting a physics glitch. Given that this thread is nearly a year old and I'm pretty sure the bug that allowed it was fixed in 0.25 or so it's no longer relevant to KSP 1.0.x. Essentially when parts clipped through each other they'd sometimes push apart, since parts could pull on one another and combined with some calculation errors the resulting vibration resulted in an overall acceleration, and you could get FTL drives made out of docking ports and landing legs or the like.

[Mic_n]

That one? Nope, that's the ladder drive, and it's alive and well.

Basically, kerbals climbing a ladder and bumping their heads on an object imparts a force on that object, with no counter force on the ladder they're climbing on. That means with a sufficiently light craft, a kerbal constantly climbing a ladder and pushing against some bit that's connected to it, they create a constant thrust. Not much mind you, but on a sufficiently light craft: enough. Pretty sure that one was an Eve return.

Possible, but considering the thrust generated and acceleration, along with the fact that it seems to break under time acceleration (x2/3/4 physics accel, not 'on rails'), it takes some pretty serious patience.

[wilt57]

I'd say it's an exploit as far as using an inexhaustible amount of fuel. Using EVA packs to orbit/deorbit? No. That's using the game's physics. If you could do that on any body, then it'd be an exploit too, but it takes TWR and Dv into account (at least the amount of Dv a Kerbal can take with them) so it's not cheating. However, good for you that you can eyeball rendezvous with EVA and can get 2100-some science off your first launch!

[Joonatan1998]

I usually try to limit EVA pack refills from one pod to 3-5 times, stations more.

Why did they add monopropellant into capsules but didn't make it to convert into EVA fuel?

[Robotengineer]

I thought that the EVA infinite refuel was supposed to be fixed in 0.23?

[Sky_walker]

I thought that the EVA infinite refuel was supposed to be fixed in 0.23?

Here's quote from 0.23 change log:

The EVA jet pack requires the resource EVA propellant instead of a percentage. Originally planned was that the corresponding monopropellant gets deducted when the Kerbal leaves the pod. But the EVA fuel gets replenished either way. That's also the reason why all command pods have now got a small amount of monopropellant on board.