[1.2.2] Ioncross Crew Support v1.26.0 (Starwaster's branch) - Jul 7, 2016

[chrisl]

I previously read the discussion with StainX. Truth be told, I'm not sure which cfg file you two were refering to.

Even if Ioncross is consuming at earth rates, that still doesn't change the fact that very little O2 got used. T+7d4h is 46 hours. So in nearly 2 earth days of O2 use, 3 kerbals managed to use up only 1.44 units of O2. I suppose if the current consumption rate is .2/kerbal/24hr, then 1.44 is pretty close to accurate (if too low). If current consumption rate is more like 1/kerbal/24hr, then it's way off. And I'd really like to see it set by default to 1/kerbal/6hr (kerbal day).

Sorry to hear about your grandma. Definitely go visit and we'll deal with configuration issues later.

Edited August 1, 2014 by chrisl

[Starwaster]

I previously read the discussion with StainX. Truth be told, I'm not sure which cfg file you two were refering to.

Even if Ioncross is consuming at earth rates, that still doesn't change the fact that very little O2 got used. T+7d4h is 46 hours. So in nearly 2 earth days of O2 use, 3 kerbals managed to use up only 1.44 units of O2. I suppose if the current consumption rate is .2/kerbal/24hr, then 1.44 is pretty close to accurate (if too low). If current consumption rate is more like 1/kerbal/24hr, then it's way off. And I'd really like to see it set by default to 1/kerbal/6hr (kerbal day).

Sorry to hear about your grandma. Definitely go visit and we'll deal with configuration issues later.

Thanks

btw, it's actually 0.25 per day (Earth days) but the VAB rounds up to 1 significant figure. If you right click on the capsule in flight it will report more accurately.

[chrisl]

I'm just trying to play around with the IoncrossBase.cfg file hoping that's what I need to tweek if I want to alter the O2 and CO2 rates per kerbal day. Since I want to use 1 unit of O2/kerbal/6hr period, I altered the ratePerKerbal value of Oxygen to 0.0000462962. Now I'm trying to work on the CO2 value but I'm not really understanding the current value.

The average human uses around 500L of pure O2/day and generates around 3500L of CO2/day. If I cut that by 25% for a Kerbal day I get 125L of O2 and 875L of CO2 per day. I know we're not using liters as units in Kerbal but I can extrapolate that 1 unit of O2 = 125L which would mean my Kerbals should be producing 7 units of CO2/ kerbal day. So I'd think 0.000324075 would be the right value to use. But the default value is a negative number. Why is the default for CO2 generation set at -0.0000021039 and the scrubber value for CO2 set at -0.0000031558? Doesn't the first number mean CO2 is never really generated?

[Starwaster]

The scrubbers are intended to completely scrub all CO2. No CO2 should accumulate while the scrubbers operate.

Cant comment on the rest because I'm on my iPhone. Not at computer.

[chrisl]

I understand now why CO2 is set as a negative number. That was confusing me before but it makes sense now.

Even with my higher O2 and CO2 values, scrubbers appear to be working just fine. I may have a problem with the converters as they only convert enough CO2 into O2 to cover 3 kerbals with the values I'm using. Once I add a 4th kerbal into the station, the converters can't keep up and I start accumulating CO2. That may be intended or I may just need to tweek the converter numbers.

Somthing odd that I noticed is that even when scrubbers are turned off, if you have crew in a module the ElectricCharge Rate value is greater then 0. With scrubbers turned off, shouldn't you be using no electric charge?

[Starwaster]

I understand now why CO2 is set as a negative number. That was confusing me before but it makes sense now.

Even with my higher O2 and CO2 values, scrubbers appear to be working just fine. I may have a problem with the converters as they only convert enough CO2 into O2 to cover 3 kerbals with the values I'm using. Once I add a 4th kerbal into the station, the converters can't keep up and I start accumulating CO2. That may be intended or I may just need to tweek the converter numbers.

Recycler rate is static per recycler unit. By design they have a set capacity per unit installed. The number you need depends on how many Kerbals you want it too support.

Somthing odd that I noticed is that even when scrubbers are turned off, if you have crew in a module the ElectricCharge Rate value is greater then 0. With scrubbers turned off, shouldn't you be using no electric charge?

The EC drain is general life support costs. I forget if scrubbers actually have an EC cost.... they probably should but might not.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Starwaster

[Tokamak]

I'm trying to use this mod, and I'm running into odd behavior.

In the VAB/SPH, the game seems to not want to acknowledge either oxygen, carbon dioxide, water, or food as resources. They do not show up on the right-click menus of parts that are meant to contain them. Example: If I place a stand-alone oxygen tank on a craft, and right click, there is no right click menu. It may as well be a strut.

Once I actually launch a craft, oxygen and carbon dioxide show up on the resources lists in the pod's right click menu, and in the toolbar drop-down on the top right of the screen. However, no co2 is produced and no oxygen is consumed when I launch a pod into space. The pod right-click menu does list the oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide production... however when the craft runs out, nothing happens to the crew.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LOe5Az04YciSs7uDYAjpw5HX-FXf584L30hP30IIIV8/edit?usp=sharing

There is my output log.

Is this a 24.2 thing, or something else? Perhaps a mod conflict? Is there anything I should look for?

[Starwaster]

I'm trying to use this mod, and I'm running into odd behavior.

In the VAB/SPH, the game seems to not want to acknowledge either oxygen, carbon dioxide, water, or food as resources. They do not show up on the right-click menus of parts that are meant to contain them. Example: If I place a stand-alone oxygen tank on a craft, and right click, there is no right click menu. It may as well be a strut.

Once I actually launch a craft, oxygen and carbon dioxide show up on the resources lists in the pod's right click menu, and in the toolbar drop-down on the top right of the screen. However, no co2 is produced and no oxygen is consumed when I launch a pod into space. The pod right-click menu does list the oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide production... however when the craft runs out, nothing happens to the crew.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LOe5Az04YciSs7uDYAjpw5HX-FXf584L30hP30IIIV8/edit?usp=sharing

There is my output log.

Is this a 24.2 thing, or something else? Perhaps a mod conflict? Is there anything I should look for?

not sure why you don't see the resources in the VAB. Works fine in 0.24.2 for me. And others AFAIK. I'll look at your log when I get home minds evening.

Re: CO2, it doesn't generate because of scrubbers. In its current incarnation, CO2 really only serves to be recycled and the scrubbers manually have to be turned off for that to happen.

[Tokamak]

not sure why you don't see the resources in the VAB. Works fine in 0.24.2 for me. And others AFAIK. I'll look at your log when I get home minds evening.

Re: CO2, it doesn't generate because of scrubbers. In its current incarnation, CO2 really only serves to be recycled and the scrubbers manually have to be turned off for that to happen.

Ah yes... I feel silly about the CO2. I confirmed that if I turn scrubbers off, CO2 is generated and Oxygen is consumed, but as before, nothing actually happens when the oxygen runs out.

[StainX]

Ah yes... I feel silly about the CO2. I confirmed that if I turn scrubbers off, CO2 is generated and Oxygen is consumed, but as before, nothing actually happens when the oxygen runs out.

Hmmm i never did run out of O² yet, but Kerbals die when CO² is too much.

[Starwaster]

Ah yes... I feel silly about the CO2. I confirmed that if I turn scrubbers off, CO2 is generated and Oxygen is consumed, but as before, nothing actually happens when the oxygen runs out.

Asphyxation isn't instant and death is random chance. Fast forward. They'll die.

Edit: because it is random, it's possible for them to live quite awhile but they do die. The time they've been without isn't factored in but that is something that I intend to put in so that their survival time can be capped when O2 deficit.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Starwaster

[chrisl]

If Recycler rate is static per unit, and EC drain is for general life support, is it possible that by tweeking the O2 consumtion and CO2 generation values I have thrown those other values out of whack? My four kerbals are using 0.667/hr of O2, are generating -4.667/hr of CO2, and are using 20.028/hr of electricity for life support. The attached recycler is converting 4.082/hr of CO2 into 0.667/hr of O2 at 0.816/sec (or 2937.6/hr) of electrical usage.

Also, something I noticed is when you have a re cycler on your ship and have excess CO2, it's not put into the recycler by default. Fortunately it's also not staying in the active crew module, but if there is a way for it to store in the recycler, that would be useful. Especially for very long voyages.

[Starwaster]

If Recycler rate is static per unit, and EC drain is for general life support, is it possible that by tweeking the O2 consumtion and CO2 generation values I have thrown those other values out of whack? My four kerbals are using 0.667/hr of O2, are generating -4.667/hr of CO2, and are using 20.028/hr of electricity for life support. The attached recycler is converting 4.082/hr of CO2 into 0.667/hr of O2 at 0.816/sec (or 2937.6/hr) of electrical usage.

Also, something I noticed is when you have a re cycler on your ship and have excess CO2, it's not put into the recycler by default. Fortunately it's also not staying in the active crew module, but if there is a way for it to store in the recycler, that would be useful. Especially for very long voyages.

CO2 doesn't move to the recycler automatically except when it tries to convert some.

Might be possible to make it happen in a future update.

About the the other stuff I'm on a bus back home. I'll look at that later.

[chrisl]

Mostly I'm thinking about long term interplanetary flights. I'd hate to turn on a recycler then fast forward a kerbal year only to find CO2 build up in the crew module resulted in a dead crew, while the recycler had plenty of space for excess CO2.

[Starwaster]

Mostly I'm thinking about long term interplanetary flights. I'd hate to turn on a recycler then fast forward a kerbal year only to find CO2 build up in the crew module resulted in a dead crew, while the recycler had plenty of space for excess CO2.

Ok, I just ran through a few months worth on a small orbital outpost with 17 Kerbals and one recycler.

Even with that many Kerbals, the stock recycler is able to keep up. However I did notice some oddities that I don't remember seeing before.... I'm not sure if it's something that got introduced around Ioncross 1.1 or if it's something that was introduced more recently with the arrival of 0.24.1, which forced a change in how Ioncross is dealing with resource queries and reqests.

The oddity is that even with O2 and CO2 resources set for ALL_VESSEL, they are being drained as though they were STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH.

Previously, O2 would drain uniformly across the ship, even from empty parts. (so the atmosphere ship wide would be the same. CO2 would accumulate the same

So you may notice (or already noticed) that a part will completely drain of O2 or completely fill with CO2 (if scrubbers and recyclers all off)

While this is strange behavior, it's not necessarily unsafe. As along as at least one part on the ship can supply O2 or absorb CO2 then the rest are ok.

I'll put it on my to-do list for the next update to equalize drain again.

On another note, if someone with access to a decent paint program could add an alpha channel to the icons found here: https://github.com/Starwaster/Ioncross-Crew-Support/tree/Dev/KerbalInstallFolder/GameData/IoncrossCrewSupport/Assets

With the letter portion white and outside set to black, it would be much appreciated

[Starwaster]

Yay, I figured out how to do alpha channels on my Mac....

(yeah, the icon itself needs work though.... it looked nicer in the paint app I was using)

[chrisl]

You're using the default values, though. Like I said, I reset my rates so that I'm using 1 unit of O2/kerbal/6hr and generated 7 units of CO2/kerbal/6hr. Those rates work fine except that a recycler can only handle 3 kerbals. When I add a 4th, the recycler can not convert all the CO2. So I'm guessing that my changed config values have messed up the recycler's conversion rate. My scrubbers work fine, though. Are the conversion rates for the recycler not found in the IoncrossBase.cfg file?

Also, I don't think we should be using electricity for life support when both a recycler and scrubber are turned off. Need to have some way to stop power usage in extreme conditions (assuming that's supportable).

[Starwaster]

You're using the default values, though. Like I said, I reset my rates so that I'm using 1 unit of O2/kerbal/6hr and generated 7 units of CO2/kerbal/6hr. Those rates work fine except that a recycler can only handle 3 kerbals. When I add a 4th, the recycler can not convert all the CO2. So I'm guessing that my changed config values have messed up the recycler's conversion rate. My scrubbers work fine, though. Are the conversion rates for the recycler not found in the IoncrossBase.cfg file?

Also, I don't think we should be using electricity for life support when both a recycler and scrubber are turned off. Need to have some way to stop power usage in extreme conditions (assuming that's supportable).

Recycler stats are on the recycler part config, including recycler electrical usage. When the recycler is off it uses no electricity.

I thought scrubbers had an electrical usage associated but they do not. There is however a general electrical drain associated with life support in general. Electrical deficiency is not fatal but does cause loss of control of that part if it's a command part.. That's in the IoncrossBase.cfg file.

[chrisl]

Actually, electrical deficiency can be fatal. Especially if you lose whatever power generation you may have had. Without electricity or plenty of monopropelant, you can't turn your ship. My personal opinion would be, have scrubbers cost electricity to run and lose the general electrical drain. Again, assuming that is even possible.

EDIT: Also, yes, that explains my recylcers. I only altered the information in IoncrossBase.cfg. I didn't change anything in the part config so my recyclers are recycling at about 25% the effeciency they should. I'll have to tweek those numbers tomorrow morning.

Edited August 6, 2014 by chrisl

[Starwaster]

Actually, electrical deficiency can be fatal. Especially if you lose whatever power generation you may have had. Without electricity or plenty of monopropelant, you can't turn your ship. My personal opinion would be, have scrubbers cost electricity to run and lose the general electrical drain. Again, assuming that is even possible.

EDIT: Also, yes, that explains my recylcers. I only altered the information in IoncrossBase.cfg. I didn't change anything in the part config so my recyclers are recycling at about 25% the effeciency they should. I'll have to tweek those numbers tomorrow morning.

I'm only referring to electrical deficiency effect on the mod itself, of course it's a problem if your entire ship runs out of power but I was only concerned with its scope in the mod and was only speaking to that.

Edit: And yes, it is possible to change in the base configuration but I'm going to leave that to tweaking

Edited August 6, 2014 by Starwaster
Clarification

[StainX]

Also... my recycling rate seems to have some save / load issue.

Set my recycler to 25% on my station, saved and quit the game... after few days while doing some other crafts and stuff... i returned to that station, the recycler is set to 100% and i am out of electric power.

So i pressed decrease recycling rate button once, then it switched to 0%... after pressing increase the recycler was back at 25% with nominal electric usage. Realized that a few times now, after loading a savegame.

Anyone else having similar issue?

[Starwaster]

Also... my recycling rate seems to have some save / load issue.

Set my recycler to 25% on my station, saved and quit the game... after few days while doing some other crafts and stuff... i returned to that station, the recycler is set to 100% and i am out of electric power.

So i pressed decrease recycling rate button once, then it switched to 0%... after pressing increase the recycler was back at 25% with nominal electric usage. Realized that a few times now, after loading a savegame.

Anyone else having similar issue?

That sounds like an issue with the display in the context menu. Do you perchance have a save file saved for that?

The electrical issue unfortunately is due to stock generators and panels not updating when they're not in the scene. I'm aware of that but don't have a solution for yet.

[StainX]

Yup, your right!

Everytime i switch to the station there is 0 electric charge left... but instantly generating some from the solar panels, at least if those chill out in sunlight!

The 100% efficiency is a display bug in the context menu, it says 100% but operates at 25%.

So, do kerbals die after a while without electricity? If not.. it should just be a minor bug.

Edit: Also a display that shows us how much O² is left on vessels would be neat

[Starwaster]

Yup, your right!

Everytime i switch to the station there is 0 electric charge left... but instantly generating some from the solar panels, at least if those chill out in sunlight!

The 100% efficiency is a display bug in the context menu, it says 100% but operates at 25%.

So, do kerbals die after a while without electricity? If not.. it should just be a minor bug.

Edit: Also a display that shows us how much O² is left on vessels would be neat

Nothing actually causes them to die if they don't have electricity. Parts are supposed to lock if Ioncross sees a failed request for ElectricCharge but it's only supposed to affect Command Pods, and I think they lock up anyway as part of stock behavior so I'm not sure why that bit was in there... So really it's just there as a drain to represent Kerbal activities that require power and other life support issues like heating/cooling because there's just not a lot in the stock game that uses power.

Edit: Part of that power drain is Kerbal use of the onboard microwave oven to heat up snacks btw.

As far as working around the problem of stock generators / panels not generating when they're not in the scene (not just off-rails since they continue to generate during non-phys time warp) I figure there's two ways of doing that. One would be to trigger an update for parts like that on a craft that has Ioncross parts. I'm not actually sure you can do that...

The other way would be for Ioncross to catalogue any generator / panel on the ship and when it does a resource request for whatever that generator provides, it first subtracts the amount that the generator is putting out and then does a request for the rest. And it has to be generic like that too, because generators and panels can generate any resource, not just Electric Charge. And solar panels have to be checked to make sure they aren't occluded.

I would like that to go in the next update but there's a lot that I also want to do.

stock toolbar integration (see screenshot a few posts back)

per save game enabling/disabling (this is really all that toolbar will be used for this time around)

across the board audit of resource parts

examine resource mass to make sure they are what they should be.

audit of resource consumption

minimalist and advanced optional config files

Future update will expand the toolbar button so that you can get alerts for ships that are in danger of running out. Or maybe I'll use the stock messenger system for that... or maybe I'll use both.

Edit: Also, there's already O2 displayed on the context menu. Or are you saying somewhere else? Maybe through the toolbar button as above?

Edited August 6, 2014 by Starwaster

[chrisl]

Ok. I can see the point of having an electrical cost for general life support. You do have to heat the capsule to a minimal degree and Kerbals do need their snacks. But it would be nice if we could get the current general cost lowered. At present, the default electrical charge for general life support means a standard Mk1 capsule has only enough electricity for about 10 hours assuming no other power usage or generation. I'd like to see that at least doubled. I know that part I can do myself by editing my config file but along with the reduced electrical cost for general life support, I'd like to see an extra electrical cost when scrubbers are activated. Not sure if that's something I can do myself by editing the config or if it's even possible with the current system.