[1.2.2] Ioncross Crew Support v1.26.0 (Starwaster's branch) - Jul 7, 2016

[chrisl]

Question: How many grams does each liter of air weigh in the weight calculations you're using? If 200 liter tank at 250 atm (50000 liters) weighs 71.45kg, then it seems like 1 liter of air weighs 1.429 grams. I read somewhere that a liter of air is closer to 1.286 grams. But the values you have all seem to be based on a weight of 1.524g/liter of air. My numbers below will be based on the higher 1.524g weight but if you're using something else, just let me know what.

Considering those numbers are for modules that just add O2, I don't see any problem with the values you are coming up with. For instance, a large stack tank is a pretty big item so the fact that it adds 2238.1 days worth of O2 for a single Kerbal is fine with me. I would ask, is that earth days or Kerbal days? If a human uses 0.8kg/24 hours, and a kerbal uses 80% of that, does that mean a kerbal only uses 0.16kb/kerbal day? Even if that's the case and the large stack tank adds 8953.5 kerbal days of air, I'm still fine with the numbers. The four items you're exampling are just extra O2 tanks so I have no problems with them adding alot of air. And although you haven't exampled them, I don't think I'll have any issues with the amount of O2 you have the two stack recyclers add since those modules would have some extra air tanks along with the recycling apparatus.

My issue has always been with the amount of O2 that comes in the various command modules. By default, the MK1 command pod comes with something like 20 units of O2. At the default rate of 0.0000028935 units per second, that means the Mk1 command pod comes standard with just over 1920 hours worth of O2. That's 80 human days or 320 kerbal days all on it's own. With that default amount, you don't need to include the extra O2 modules unless you're going to be flying missions for extremely long missions. I have a mission to Duna setup that took only about 250 kerbal days round trip, so with the default numbers I don't need extra O2 because there is plenty in the default capsule. For that matter, I probably don't need to include any extra LSS modules unless I'm planning a trip out to Dres or beyond. It seems ridiculous to me that a standard 1 kerbal command pod comes with just about as much O2 as the small radial tank.

Crew modules should (IMO) only contain enough air for a full crew compliment to last a short duration. Something along the following guidlines:

1) The Hitchhiker module is intended as a crew living area so it makes sense to me that it would have a large life support capacity. I'd say something along the lines of 60 days (human if your above examples are showing human days) worth of O2 for a 4 kerbal crew.

2) Command pods should have just basic life support so enough for a full crew compliment to last only a couple human days (about a kerbal week).

3) Mk1 and Mk2 Cockpit should have the same LSS capacity as a command pod.

4) Mk3 Cockpit looks like it's supposed to represent the shuttle's crew area so I'd give it a slightly larger LSS capacity then the other cockpits. Perhaps enough O2 to last three Kerbals for a Kerbal month (about a human week).

5) Lander cans and the Cupola aren't meant to be long term living areas so limit their LSS system to a bit less then a command pod (1 human day at most).

The above criteria should work for mods that have their own crew modules. For instance, the MK3-9 Orbital Command Pod from Near Future Spacecraft would only have about a kerbal weeks worth of O2 for it's 2 kerbal crew. And the PPD-24 Itinerant Service Container (also from Near Future Spacecraft, I think) would be like the hitchhiker module with 60 human days worth of life support for it's 2 kerbals.

Of course, there are some exceptions that would likely have to be addressed case by case. For instance, the huge PPD-1 Heavy Command Module (again, from Near Future Spacecraft) should probably be treated like the Mk3 Cockpit and have around a kerbal month's worth of life support for each of it's 6 kerbal crew. But for the most part, I think it should be fairly easy to classify various crew modules into one of the above categories. Either way, though, most shouldn't have a huge LSS by default. Otherwise you defeat the purpose of the other Ioncross modules.

[Starwaster]

1liter of air != 1 liter of pure O2

theres a lot of nitrogen which has a lower molecular weight.

Very little nitrogen has to be brought along because it is all recycled except for a very small amount lost to EVA.

(Assuming an airlock instead of just venting to space)

[chrisl]

Yeah, I know. I was using air, O2 and LSS more or less interchangeably.

Or are you refering to my question relating to how many grams/liter of air you're using in your calculations?

"Air" (80% nitrogen/20% oxygen plus trace elements) weighs around 1.286 grams/liter. That weight isn't used in any of the examples you posted. I just included it for informational reasons.

Pure O2 weighs around 1.429 grams/liter. That's the weight used in the first example you posted: 200 liter tank at 250 atm = 71.45kg O2. [200*250*1.429 = 71450grams or 71.45kg]

The calculations in your last four examples (Small Radial with 40k liters adds 95.24 Days/1 Kerbal) appear to be based on a weight of 1.524 grams/liter. [40000 liters * 1.524g =60960grams or 60.96kg / 0.64kg =95.25] You did mention humans use 0.8kg/day and kerbals use 80% of that so kerbals would therefore use 0.64kg/day.

Anyway, the difference in O2 weight between the first example and the other four is where my question came from. Though, admittedly, I didn't state things well. Basically I was just confused because if O2 weighs 1.429g/l and "air" weighs 1.286g/l, where did you get 1.524g/l or where did I screw up my math?

[Starwaster]

It's 1.429 g but Kerbals use less. I'm on my phone and don't remember the exact value I used. I think it was .64 per Terran day. Also I'm scrunched under a table with an elderly feral cat in my lap and her head in my other hand. If anyone cares.

[Starwaster]

Ok, in kg/day it's actually 0.6 (actually slightly over because of some quirk in the math, at

0.60018)

In liters it works out to 420 liters of O2 per day. The actual compression I used is 200x and not 250x.

Crewed parts now default to 2 days of O2 and the assumption is for capsule type parts 2 cubic meters of volume per crew member. That's primarily for determining maximum safe CO2 buildup which is 10% at which time random regular checks are made for fatalities and some sort of delta penalty will be put in the code so that the longer it's been doing fatality checks the more likely a given check will result in fatality. That will have the effect of putting a soft cap on how long crew can do without a resource check. (IOW works for O2 checks too)

So the numbers for a Mk1-2 Pod are:

O2 = 2550 (850x3 for 2 days worth)

CO2 = 600

I haven't decided on O2 levels for parts like the Hitchhiker's pod but CO2 will assume double the amount of internal volume per crew so 1600 CO2 for the Hitchhiker. Or I might go and do an actual volume calculation on it.

I'm still going through the various configs for parts packs to apply those standards.

[chrisl]

Ah. That's where the problem with my math was. I was using 0.64kg/human day as the O2 usage which is why weights weren't working out. Just as an FYI, 0.6kg/human day is only 75% of what a human uses, not the 80% you mentioned you wanted to use. Not that I'm bothered either way. I know the values you used now so my math lines up.

Yes, I saw that you're only using a 200x compression instead of 250x which is fine with me. I only mentioned the 250x in my post because it's part of the NASA example. I'm perfectly fine with the 200x compression, though.

I can't wait to see the update with crewed parts mostly all defaulting to 2 human days of O2. And I like the 2 cubic meters/crew volume sounds great as well. And the delta penalty sounds great as well. Though hopefully you can make it based on when CO2 fills up (or O2 runs out) as opposed to the entire flight's duration. Looking forwarding to seeing all of that in action.

In your example for the Mk1-2 Pod, I'm not sure where the CO2=600 came from. If 1 cubic meter of "air" weighs approximately 1.293kg, and 1 cubic meter of "pure" CO2 weighs approximately 1.977kg, 10% would mean .1977kg/cubic meter. But I'm not sure (even with rounding) where the 100/cubic meter came from. That said, I'm not overly concerned either. 100/cubic meter of CO2 is probably perfectly fine.

Anyway, I'm definitely looking forward to the next update.

[Starwaster]

Ah. That's where the problem with my math was. I was using 0.64kg/human day as the O2 usage which is why weights weren't working out. Just as an FYI, 0.6kg/human day is only 75% of what a human uses, not the 80% you mentioned you wanted to use. Not that I'm bothered either way. I know the values you used now so my math lines up.

Yes, I saw that you're only using a 200x compression instead of 250x which is fine with me. I only mentioned the 250x in my post because it's part of the NASA example. I'm perfectly fine with the 200x compression, though.

I can't wait to see the update with crewed parts mostly all defaulting to 2 human days of O2. And I like the 2 cubic meters/crew volume sounds great as well. And the delta penalty sounds great as well. Though hopefully you can make it based on when CO2 fills up (or O2 runs out) as opposed to the entire flight's duration. Looking forwarding to seeing all of that in action.

In your example for the Mk1-2 Pod, I'm not sure where the CO2=600 came from. If 1 cubic meter of "air" weighs approximately 1.293kg, and 1 cubic meter of "pure" CO2 weighs approximately 1.977kg, 10% would mean .1977kg/cubic meter. But I'm not sure (even with rounding) where the 100/cubic meter came from. That said, I'm not overly concerned either. 100/cubic meter of CO2 is probably perfectly fine.

Anyway, I'm definitely looking forward to the next update.

Yeah, at some point in my spreadsheet I had decided to go from 80% to 75%

Also to 200x compression because it just felt like the Kerbals were still getting too much air and 200x feels like a good amount so that they still have to be mindful of their air supply. From that standpoint maybe it would have been better to go with 80%. (of human requirement)

I will quite likely release the configs before the full release so that people can try them out and give feedback. What it's looking like now is better than the current values. No more launching a single capsule with no additional life support and watching it almost circumnavigate the solar system before Kerbals expire.

And although the CO2 values are higher (100/cubic meter is 10% of 1000 liters; 10% being our designated starting point where CO2 buildup becomes a problem) it fills up faster because of the increased O2/CO2 rates. Turn off the scrubbers and you can see a Mk1 pod's CO2 levels rise to troublesome levels after a few orbits. Things like the hitchhiker pod are probably going to need more tweaking and especially parts like Porkjet's hab pack.

Oh and yes, the delta penalty will start at the moment a resource request fails. i.e. no O2 to consume or CO2 is at capacity. Although, technically it SHOULD be able to continue to fill up past 10%..... the way I'm doing it isn't really the way it should be done, but the current system doesn't allow me to say 'start killing Kerbals when CO2 is at 10% of capacity'. So.... CO2 level is supposed to represent the percentage of total habitable volume that has filled up except that it's not We're just sort of pretending it does.... something else to fix later

But back to the delta penalty, the necessary information is already being tracked by the system. It already keeps track of how long it's been since a request failed and when the last kill roll was made.

Edit: And, WOW, I just happened to look at my last post before your reply and what the heck happened to my formatting??? Looks like the forum software mangled my post ...

Edited September 5, 2014 by Starwaster

[chrisl]

Yeah, at some point in my spreadsheet I had decided to go from 80% to 75%

From your first post in this sequence, I read it that you started with 75% and changed it up to 80%. Hence my use of 0.64 and confusing results. No worries, though. Now that I know what values to use, the math works out.

Also to 200x compression because it just felt like the Kerbals were still getting too much air and 200x feels like a good amount so that they still have to be mindful of their air supply. From that standpoint maybe it would have been better to go with 80%. (of human requirement)

Like I said, I'm fine with the 200x compression. Once you throw in the fact that a Kerbal day is only 6 hours long, the times you'll get from even a small radial tank are pretty large so going with the lower compression isn't a problem in my book.

And although the CO2 values are higher (100/cubic meter is 10% of 1000 liters; 10% being our designated starting point where CO2 buildup becomes a problem) it fills up faster because of the increased O2/CO2 rates. Turn off the scrubbers and you can see a Mk1 pod's CO2 levels rise to troublesome levels after a few orbits. Things like the hitchhiker pod are probably going to need more tweaking and especially parts like Porkjet's hab pack.

Ah. That's cool and makes perfect sense. And I definitely like the idea of really needing to run those scrubbers. I'd still like to see the default config use less electric charge for base life support with an added charge for turning those scrubbers on. Otherwise there's really never a reason to turn the scrubbers off (unless you've got a recycling module). But I can always add those adjustments to the config I use if you don't like the idea of two seperate charges iin the default system. Either way, I like how this is all sounding. Means the IPV I've been building will actually be using the extra O2 tank and Recycling module I put on it.

[Starwaster]

Ah. That's cool and makes perfect sense. And I definitely like the idea of really needing to run those scrubbers. I'd still like to see the default config use less electric charge for base life support with an added charge for turning those scrubbers on. Otherwise there's really never a reason to turn the scrubbers off (unless you've got a recycling module). But I can always add those adjustments to the config I use if you don't like the idea of two seperate charges iin the default system. Either way, I like how this is all sounding. Means the IPV I've been building will actually be using the extra O2 tank and Recycling module I put on it.

Well I've been giving some thought to sticking an electric charge on the scrubbers, though it shouldn't be too high... it's just fans moving the air around...

I'll probably be putting some EC cost on the scrubbers.

[E.Nygma]

Disregard, please erase post. thx

Edited September 6, 2014 by E.Nygma

[Starwaster]

Disregard, please erase post. thx

You have the ability to delete your post. Besides you only a moderator can.

[therealcrow999]

I'm glad you took this mod over for the most part Starwaster, I thought it would be long dead since my absence to the game. I want to play the game again, but I might wait until 0.25. I hate having to update all my mod list all the time with every little change.

I still have Ioncross Crew support v1.11 dev4 with Kethane fix and without backed up on my drive, as with a lot of older mods.

Keep up the good work!

[Starwaster]

You might be waiting a while for .25 - what is it maybe 3 months average between updates?

[Starwaster]

FYI, EVA resource bugs:

Kerbal EVA O2 reports at 0% if the current planet has a breathable atmosphere. Even if in orbit or extreme elevations. Technically the display is wrong but it doesn't matter because Kerbals aren't consuming EVA oxygen in that situation. (even if in orbit...)

So that means that if you're in Kerbin (or Laythe) SOI then Kerbals aren't using O2 at all when on EVA. In all other situations they are working properly. (but the Kerbal is carrying O2 regardless of what the display says and will return it to the ship when he embarks)

Fixed in the next update, but if I'll push a hot fix for that if it starts looking like it will be much longer before I can get the next update out. (I just got a new computer now and I've just finished getting it set up for coding and Githubbing)

[therealcrow999]

Does anyone have the reskin link for Ioncross Crew Support models? I use to have them, I might have to dig around for them. I might have gotten rid of them since I thought Ioncross was dead.

This is the old link:

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/author/somnambulist/

[Starwaster]

Does anyone have the reskin link for Ioncross Crew Support models? I use to have them, I might have to dig around for them. I might have gotten rid of them since I thought Ioncross was dead.

This is the old link:

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/author/somnambulist/

http://i.imgur.com/w9Oyi63.jpg?1

I'm not sure I even knew those existed. I don't think I have them around anywhere, sorry. Have you tried messaging Somnambulist?

[therealcrow999]

I found them in a old KSP version folder, I pulled them out. Thank god they I still have them. I messaged him once a long time ago, he didn't appear to be around. This is the second time I almost lost them for good.

They are two TGA files, I put them in a zip file to put in game.

http://www./download/esvxkkwsh7he6x8/IoncrossCrewSupport_-_Radial_Retexture.zip

I by no means want credit for making these. I just want them to remain alive.

Somnambulist reskin of radial tanks.

[Starwaster]

I found them in a old KSP version folder, I pulled them out. Thank god they I still have them. I messaged him once a long time ago, he didn't appear to be around. This is the second time I almost lost them for good.

They are two TGA files, I put them in a zip file to put in game.

http://www./download/esvxkkwsh7he6x8/IoncrossCrewSupport_-_Radial_Retexture.zip

I by no means want credit for making these. I just want them to remain alive.

Somnambulist reskin of radial tanks.

http://i.imgur.com/w9Oyi63.jpg?1

Edit: Derrrrr, I should have checked the first page of my very own thread because there's Somnambulist saying I can use his cannister retextures. *cough*

If he posted any license for these that I can access and that would allow me to include them, and assuming there's interest, then I'll add them to the official downloads as an optional extra.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Starwaster

[therealcrow999]

Awesome, this will be nice addition.

[chrisl]

I agree. The reskins would be nice to have.

[therealcrow999]

I got a request for this mod, since yongedevil wasn't around when the KSP released tweakable parameters. Can you add tweakable parameters to this mod? Its very useful for two reasons, one when I am building rocket in VAB I can right click on a pod and see how much O2 is in it. Second, If I have a short flight, I can reduce the amount of O2. As of right now its kind of hard to figure out the amounts of O2 or capacity of CO2 without tweakable parameters.

I think tweakable parameters can give me the amount of EVA O2 a Kerbal is caring with him. I assume Kerbals take EVA O2 with them? I can't really tell at the moment since there is not bar when I right click a Kerbal in EVA.

Another thing, but could be a later edition, it would be nice to have a blizzy78 toolbar icon that a player can click on and a window comes up and show to total time remain of a vessel O2 and CO2 amount. This calculation is based on the combine amount of O2 it has in capsule and extra tanks.

Thanks!

[Starwaster]

I got a request for this mod, since yongedevil wasn't around when the KSP released tweakable parameters. Can you add tweakable parameters to this mod? Its very useful for two reasons, one when I am building rocket in VAB I can right click on a pod and see how much O2 is in it. Second, If I have a short flight, I can reduce the amount of O2. As of right now its kind of hard to figure out the amounts of O2 or capacity of CO2 without tweakable parameters.

I think tweakable parameters can give me the amount of EVA O2 a Kerbal is caring with him. I assume Kerbals take EVA O2 with them? I can't really tell at the moment since there is not bar when I right click a Kerbal in EVA.

Another thing, but could be a later edition, it would be nice to have a blizzy78 toolbar icon that a player can click on and a window comes up and show to total time remain of a vessel O2 and CO2 amount. This calculation is based on the combine amount of O2 it has in capsule and extra tanks.

Thanks!

If you're referring to the stock tweakables then yeah I guess I can do that.

It won't help for EVA oxygen because the oxygen a Kerbal carries isn't actual 'part resource'. That's the way Yongedevil set it up and I thought about changing it so that they would carry the actual resource but it required changes to some fundamental resource code in the mod and I decided to preserve the original system. (I was having to hack things a bit so that Kerbals would check out and turn in the resources properly when they disembarked/embarked their spacecraft and I wanted to keep potential problems to a minimum)

Basically what happens is that when a Kerbal goes on EVA a set quantity of O2 (or other EVA resource if any get configured later) is removed from the ship corresponding to X hours of EVA time. (I forget how much, probably 8 hours or something). A data table is created on the Kerbal's Ioncross EVA module containing a record of resources he's carrying without the actual resource being added to his 'PART'. As you've seen it's displayed and recorded as a percentage. When he returns to the ship, the EVA resource is converted back into real resources scaled by the percent remaining. I'll see what I can do later about either making it more readable, adding a quantity bar or some thing. Possibly making it use real resources, but that's not going to happen any time soon because of the amount of changes that need making (simply adding / removing actual resource is easy but there's other code that depends on the EVA system as it is now)

Blizzy toolbar support is probably not going to happen because I've already started support for the stock toolbar system. In fact, the first option in the toolbar will be a button to disable the mod on a per-save game basis. That part is functional now btw but there's other parts of the update that I've been working on before I release it. Such as resupply contracts. As a player progresses through career mode, small science stations will spawn around various bodies with contracts to go to and resupply those stations. The first part of that, the spawning, is in. Now I just need to get the parameters working properly so that docking and resupplying are actually detected so that you can be rewarded.

[therealcrow999]

If you're referring to the stock tweakables then yeah I guess I can do that.

It won't help for EVA oxygen because the oxygen a Kerbal carries isn't actual 'part resource'. That's the way Yongedevil set it up and I thought about changing it so that they would carry the actual resource but it required changes to some fundamental resource code in the mod and I decided to preserve the original system. (I was having to hack things a bit so that Kerbals would check out and turn in the resources properly when they disembarked/embarked their spacecraft and I wanted to keep potential problems to a minimum)

Basically what happens is that when a Kerbal goes on EVA a set quantity of O2 (or other EVA resource if any get configured later) is removed from the ship corresponding to X hours of EVA time. (I forget how much, probably 8 hours or something). A data table is created on the Kerbal's Ioncross EVA module containing a record of resources he's carrying without the actual resource being added to his 'PART'. As you've seen it's displayed and recorded as a percentage. When he returns to the ship, the EVA resource is converted back into real resources scaled by the percent remaining. I'll see what I can do later about either making it more readable, adding a quantity bar or some thing. Possibly making it use real resources, but that's not going to happen any time soon because of the amount of changes that need making (simply adding / removing actual resource is easy but there's other code that depends on the EVA system as it is now)

Blizzy toolbar support is probably not going to happen because I've already started support for the stock toolbar system. In fact, the first option in the toolbar will be a button to disable the mod on a per-save game basis. That part is functional now btw but there's other parts of the update that I've been working on before I release it. Such as resupply contracts. As a player progresses through career mode, small science stations will spawn around various bodies with contracts to go to and resupply those stations. The first part of that, the spawning, is in. Now I just need to get the parameters working properly so that docking and resupplying are actually detected so that you can be rewarded.

Yeah I was talking about stock tweakables. It would be handy for some things.

I forgot about the new stock toolbar stuff. That's probably a better route.

I see what your saying about the EVA amounts and preserving the code. This is a good mod, had some minor bugs since it wasn't maintained, but that seems to have gone. This is probably one of my favorite mods, I might be coming back to it. I was using ECLSS since Ioncross was put on the shelf a while back.

[therealcrow999]

Yeah and to add Kerbals are limited anyways to EVAs, with the monopropellant.

I think the disable button would be nice for some people, I don't think I would use it personally.

That career mode contract sounds pretty cool.

Thanks for adding in the ModuleManager_Default.cfg. That makes life easier with all these mods that are coming out now, it saves me time to add in a code for life support.

I might need some math and make a chart to show by default capsule before adding any tanks, what amount of time is available for O2 for personal use and might upload it for users.

Thanks!

[chrisl]

Not that I want to rush the next release, but I'm wondering if there is an ETA yet? I'm really interested in trying out the new consumption rates and storage capacities that you were working on.