Starwaster

[1.2.2] Ioncross Crew Support v1.26.0 (Starwaster's branch) - Jul 7, 2016

Recommended Posts

One thing that I notice for the ModuleManager_Default.cfg is that it looks like this:

1 crew O2 is 20/20, CO2 0/2 and 3 crew is O2 60/60, CO2 0/6.

The original numbers if looked in ModuleManager_Squad.cfg:

1 cre O2 is 20/20, CO2 0/10 and 3 crew is O2 60/60, CO2 0/30.

Is this something new with the CO2 amounts, that they are brought down? It seems like some of these configs old and new aren't universal. Like the Nova Punch one is using different numbers, something more for space station parts and not pods, because they are in the 100s for 1 crew pod. Some of these .cfg were dropped in when yongedevil was getting away from community and he didn't really overlook things from users when he placed them in the mod. So there are some inconsistencies with the .cfgs. I think the number of config files need to be eliminated and just one file, like the default one put in its place. This has been one of my annoyance with this mod since it died off. I think if yongedevil was still around he would of deleted all 11 config files and went with one config that work with the newer MM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not that I want to rush the next release, but I'm wondering if there is an ETA yet? I'm really interested in trying out the new consumption rates and storage capacities that you were working on.

I may release it without the contracts. I have to do another pass on the configs and I'm thinking of reworking the mechanics of delta penalties to make it easier working them into configs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know waiting for an update on everyone's favorite life support mod is a trying experience so here's something to get you through the experience:

Cleopatra, toothless old semi feral cat waiting for Hardee's burger and brisket:

DV12QtDl.jpg

Edited by Starwaster
Edited because: Holy crap that was huge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One thing that I notice for the ModuleManager_Default.cfg is that it looks like this:

1 crew O2 is 20/20, CO2 0/2 and 3 crew is O2 60/60, CO2 0/6.

The original numbers if looked in ModuleManager_Squad.cfg:

1 cre O2 is 20/20, CO2 0/10 and 3 crew is O2 60/60, CO2 0/30.

Is this something new with the CO2 amounts, that they are brought down? It seems like some of these configs old and new aren't universal. Like the Nova Punch one is using different numbers, something more for space station parts and not pods, because they are in the 100s for 1 crew pod. Some of these .cfg were dropped in when yongedevil was getting away from community and he didn't really overlook things from users when he placed them in the mod. So there are some inconsistencies with the .cfgs. I think the number of config files need to be eliminated and just one file, like the default one put in its place. This has been one of my annoyance with this mod since it died off. I think if yongedevil was still around he would of deleted all 11 config files and went with one config that work with the newer MM.

Oops sorry, did not see this.

I am doing a consistency pass on the configs, but:

The default config isn't suitable for all parts. I only created that to ensure that all crewed parts would have Ioncross support and a small reserve of O2. By default everything is assumed by that file to be something small like a command pod. Some parts like the station parts need more than the amount per crew that things like command pods get. The hitchhiker's pod is an example. The large science lab should be in that category too. The rationale is that some of these parts have larger O2 reserves which should obviate some of the need for external O2 tanks. Fustek station parts are another example

Things like the Mk1 / Mk1-2 pods on the other hand have just enough reserve for 2 days (or will in the next revision) per Kerbal. They'll also have a generator by default that converts LiquidOxygen to Oxygen. It will be off by default unless there's some overwhelming majority that thinks it should be enabled.

The new Module Manager, while it has some interesting features, isn't any more suited to eliminating all other config files than what we have now. It's technically possible to just delete everything but the default file but then everything would be the same regardless of whether it's a part that should logically have more O2 to it.

As for CO2, the reason CO2 was brought down to the levels it was was to reflect (in an abstract way) the fact that small quantities of CO2 are harmful. It starts to become harmful at ~10%. By 20% you are in serious trouble. In the current config files, the assumption is that if you look at the O2 supply quantity, 10% of that is the maximum amount of CO2 buildup that can be tolerated. There is a certain sense to that rationale but it fails because not all of the O2 in a capsule truly represents the capsule's internal volume. Additionally, the amount of O2 and CO2 being consumed/generated don't really match up to sensible values if you look at what a person or Kerbal would consume.

So, the amount of CO2 that a crewed part can contain WILL be increased again, but so will the rate of production of CO2. (consumption of O2 will come up as well so that one Mk1 pod can't circle the sun for a few years before its occupant suffocates)

Some O2 supply parts will also have their O2 quantities increased, like the small and long radial parts. The recyclers will have their CO2 reserves lowered and O2 increased.

Back to CO2 in crewed parts, it's being increased to represent 10% of the capsule volume in liters. As before, when it reaches that amount, kill rolls will be made against the crew. In practice you wont ever see that because of scrubbers, but those will require electricity and so if your power goes out then you have a problem. Again, it's not the most realistic solution, that would be to allow CO2 to exceed 10% but the way things are now, the system can't say, ok the capsule has 1000 liters of space for this Kerbal so 100 liters is 10%. So we have to just cap it at 100 and assume that CO2 is actually building up past that but we just can't simulate it at this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've currently got an 8-kerbal crew in my IPV starting it's multi-year trek from planet to planet (at least as long as it's fuel holds up). I'm interested in seeing if the LSS I have on the ship will be sufficient once the new release is available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've currently got an 8-kerbal crew in my IPV starting it's multi-year trek from planet to planet (at least as long as it's fuel holds up). I'm interested in seeing if the LSS I have on the ship will be sufficient once the new release is available.

If not, it might be necessary for the crew to engage in the ancient and solemn ritual of Puun-Taffy. ​(borrowed from the Spathi)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my honest and humbled opinion, Ioncross should add food to the Crew Support system. In addition, use ZZZ's greenhouse to create food and scrub CO2. IMHO, that is...

TAC life, while a good mod, has to many resources to deal with and all of those ugly parts. I do like the mods that Universal Storage made for TAC, but Ioncross may be better in the since it is simpler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In my honest and humbled opinion, Ioncross should add food to the Crew Support system. In addition, use ZZZ's greenhouse to create food and scrub CO2. IMHO, that is...

TAC life, while a good mod, has to many resources to deal with and all of those ugly parts. I do like the mods that Universal Storage made for TAC, but Ioncross may be better in the since it is simpler.

That's why I kept coming back to Ioncross, and why I adopted it when Yongedevil couldn't continue with it.

I don't know about food.... maybe as an alternate configuration?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oops sorry, did not see this.

I am doing a consistency pass on the configs, but:

The default config isn't suitable for all parts. I only created that to ensure that all crewed parts would have Ioncross support and a small reserve of O2. By default everything is assumed by that file to be something small like a command pod. Some parts like the station parts need more than the amount per crew that things like command pods get. The hitchhiker's pod is an example. The large science lab should be in that category too. The rationale is that some of these parts have larger O2 reserves which should obviate some of the need for external O2 tanks. Fustek station parts are another example

Things like the Mk1 / Mk1-2 pods on the other hand have just enough reserve for 2 days (or will in the next revision) per Kerbal. They'll also have a generator by default that converts LiquidOxygen to Oxygen. It will be off by default unless there's some overwhelming majority that thinks it should be enabled.

The new Module Manager, while it has some interesting features, isn't any more suited to eliminating all other config files than what we have now. It's technically possible to just delete everything but the default file but then everything would be the same regardless of whether it's a part that should logically have more O2 to it.

As for CO2, the reason CO2 was brought down to the levels it was was to reflect (in an abstract way) the fact that small quantities of CO2 are harmful. It starts to become harmful at ~10%. By 20% you are in serious trouble. In the current config files, the assumption is that if you look at the O2 supply quantity, 10% of that is the maximum amount of CO2 buildup that can be tolerated. There is a certain sense to that rationale but it fails because not all of the O2 in a capsule truly represents the capsule's internal volume. Additionally, the amount of O2 and CO2 being consumed/generated don't really match up to sensible values if you look at what a person or Kerbal would consume.

So, the amount of CO2 that a crewed part can contain WILL be increased again, but so will the rate of production of CO2. (consumption of O2 will come up as well so that one Mk1 pod can't circle the sun for a few years before its occupant suffocates)

Some O2 supply parts will also have their O2 quantities increased, like the small and long radial parts. The recyclers will have their CO2 reserves lowered and O2 increased.

Back to CO2 in crewed parts, it's being increased to represent 10% of the capsule volume in liters. As before, when it reaches that amount, kill rolls will be made against the crew. In practice you wont ever see that because of scrubbers, but those will require electricity and so if your power goes out then you have a problem. Again, it's not the most realistic solution, that would be to allow CO2 to exceed 10% but the way things are now, the system can't say, ok the capsule has 1000 liters of space for this Kerbal so 100 liters is 10%. So we have to just cap it at 100 and assume that CO2 is actually building up past that but we just can't simulate it at this time.

I see you are working on a lot with Ioncross, it is one of my favorite LS. It just uses O2 and CO2 and nothing else to worry about. The parts are really nice modeled and go well with stock stuff. I am use TAC at the moment until this mod comes back alive. I hope it gets add to Universal Storage too once Ioncross fully resurrected. When its all and done, you should call it ICS Resurrected or ICS Phoenix, because it pretty much came out of the ashes, I really thought it was dead.

Yeah I understand the idea of doing a general config to add O2 based on number of crew a object can have, but size of the volume of a object is something different. Even though a capsule of 1 crew can hold like 20 O2, a space station part much larger that holds 1 crew might have more O2, base on the amount of volume that it can hold. That always bothered me with LS mods, that a larger object holds about the same O2 as a smaller one.

I see you are doing some nice things with the CO2, you are taking this mod in a nice direction. I'm probably going to wait until future releases once the mod matures and stabilizes to a nice place. Seems like you still have some work ahead to still do. I think once it is to your liking it will be a great mod again and I can't wait to try it again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI, this appears to work in 0.25, although the new space plane parts to do not have any crew support installed.

Keep up the good work! Also I'd like to see a simple food / snacks system implemented!

You could add it as just a simple element that gets drained by kerbals, say 3 units per day, per kerbal, and then have some kind of hydroponics bay to regenerate it. I'd love to do this myself but I haven't the foggiest idea where to start... :blush:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FYI, this appears to work in 0.25, although the new space plane parts to do not have any crew support installed.

Keep up the good work! Also I'd like to see a simple food / snacks system implemented!

You could add it as just a simple element that gets drained by kerbals, say 3 units per day, per kerbal, and then have some kind of hydroponics bay to regenerate it. I'd love to do this myself but I haven't the foggiest idea where to start... :blush:

yes, sorry I meant to post earlier. There will be a recompile and update but I've been a bit busy with Deadly Reentry which I have recently taken over from NathanKell. DRE needs a bit of attention right now and Ioncross is still functional as is so it can wait a little bit.

However, regarding spaceplane parts, it sounds like you are missing ModuleManager_Default.cfg which makes sure that all parts which can be crewed are equipped with life support module and supplied with O2 at a default level. You might want to reinstall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yes, sorry I meant to post earlier. There will be a recompile and update but I've been a bit busy with Deadly Reentry which I have recently taken over from NathanKell. DRE needs a bit of attention right now and Ioncross is still functional as is so it can wait a little bit.

However, regarding spaceplane parts, it sounds like you are missing ModuleManager_Default.cfg which makes sure that all parts which can be crewed are equipped with life support module and supplied with O2 at a default level. You might want to reinstall.

I can confirm that the new spaceplane parts DO have Oxygen and CO2 values. So if you've not getting them, double check your install as Starwaster suggests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not going to function with 0.90 until I get in there and do some code work and recompiling.

I'll have something out either tomorrow or the day after. And it'll be a fairly big update given that it's all the things I was working on before.

Sorry about the delay but I got really tied up with Deadly Reentry :(

Edit: Looking good so far. Had to trim out some obsolete code that didn't really do anything except play with a class that no longer exists in KSP. Testing it in-game now. Resource consumption looks good. Now need to see if.... Kerbal killing... still works. A moment of silence please :(

Edited by Starwaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/221054-ioncross-crew-support-sw

1.18.0

  • Added toolbar button to Space Center using new KSP toolbar API (from 0.24.0)
  • Per game enabling/disabling of mod
  • Resource rate / day now respects Kerbin / Earth day settings.
  • Added Contract System framework
  • First Pass resource audit.
  • Reworking of O2 / CO2 based on liters. CO2 capacity higher but so is CO2 generation.

EDIT:

Change log looks kind of sparse, but this is really a very big update and I was working on it for quite awhile and testing and it should have got out earlier and for that I apologize.

As the log says, you can now enable/disable the mod per save game. So you could have life support working in Career mode but turned off in your sandbox game. (resources are still present, can't do anything about that without extensive hackery)

Displayed resource rate uses whatever you set your time to be displayed as. So if you've got it set to Kerbin time where 1 day equals 15 minutes then that's what's used in the display. If it's set to real life Earth days then that is used.

Contract System: NOT functional. It's about 90% finished but I disabled it in the release because finishing it was holding things up. Enabled, it generates contracts to resupply science stations. If the science station doesn't exist around the target planet then one is spawned in orbit. That part actually would be working if I flipped the switch to enable it in the mod. Works the same as those rescue Kerbal contracts. It even makes sure that the orbit is outside any planetary atmospheres so that's kinda cool.

Resources were reworked extensively based on the liter for storage. Most command pods don't have sufficient oxygen for extended missions. To the Mun and back in stock is ok, but try to fly to Minmus and back and your capsule is coming home with corpses. Most command pods have 850 O2 per Kerbal. Station parts and hitchhiker pods have greater reserves. The O2 tanks have significantly more O2. Your average capsule can buildup 200 CO2 before it becomes lethal.

Planned but not done is that recyclers won't have CO2 reserves anymore. Instead they'll have that capacity dedicated to O2 instead. So they'll be O2 tanks only with CO2 regenerators built in. Next update.

Edited by Starwaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Starwaster, I'm getting some null reference errors when KSP tries to load this. Here is the output log:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcf24gn6gy09vuc/output_log%20%282%29.txt?dl=0

That looks like the old pre-0.90 DLL is trying to be being loaded. I'm checking the download to make sure I didn't somehow use the wrong DLL.

But also, how did you install? Did you by any chance try to run the older version, and then try to install the new version on top?

Edit: Ok, this is my fault. But I'm blaming Github. Stupid useless piece of crap Github. If I suddenly every disappear without a trace from these forums, it's probably because Github made me lose the will to live.

Ok, download is fixed.

Again, I apologize. I was having trouble with Github when merging branches and all I can think of is that I got an incomplete merge from my development branch to my master branch; the latter being where I uploaded the file from :(

Edited by Starwaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to giving this a try. I still play .25 on my main setup but I'm getting a .9 setup ready and IonCross was a definite mod requirement before I'd startup my new game. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loaded successfully. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just noticed a probably bug. I've got a small(-ish) space station with a LS-19A recylcer attached. Until recently I had no kerbals stationed on my station but I just docked a returning Mun lander. The lander had been at the Mun for a few days and I'd transfered all the surplus O2 that I could to the command module. Had been planning on dumping the lander in kerbal orbit but picked up a contract to rescue a Kerbal from orbit. So I rescued that Kerbal using the lander and then had the lander dock to my space station. Anyway, the lander had no CO2 since I'd been running the scrubber the whole time, but it was down about 18 days worth of O2. As soon as I docked it to the station, the "recylcer" started generating O2 even though there was no CO2 available. This didn't happen with the older version which only created O2 when you had surplus CO2 so I'm guessing a minor bug has been introduced in the latest build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's probably just grabbing the CO2 being generated by the Kerbals before the scrubber gets it. They're both generators basically. One only consumes CO2 (anti generator) and the other exchanges it for O2.

Even if you never see the CO2, it exists long enough for a generator to grab it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.