griffin247 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 omg everthing is working wooooooo thanks chaps just a few tweeks and i can start the tree all over again . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrandom Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 It appears that TAC Life Support amounts for Procedural Parts's life support tank, along with all the TAC parts, don't have correctly-balanced values since the switch away from 1 unit == 1 day of resources.Command pods and lander cans (at least the ones I've looked at, including ALCOR) are in good shape, so there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedAV8R Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 It appears that TAC Life Support amounts for Procedural Parts's life support tank, along with all the TAC parts, don't have correctly-balanced values since the switch away from 1 unit == 1 day of resources.Command pods and lander cans (at least the ones I've looked at, including ALCOR) are in good shape, so there's that. I'll take a look at that and see what we can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0cketC0der Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I'm pretty sure that the merlin 1D has more than two ignitions. It should have at least four (static fire, launch, turnaround burn, landing) and I think that they can be ignited a lot more often than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrandom Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I'll take a look at that and see what we can do.I spoke too soon. While ALCOR has correct values, pods like the Mk1-2 still have the old unit system in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physicsnerd Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) If I may make a suggestion- NovaPunch now has a large new update, several new engines, and the pods have been updated. Perhaps the config for it could be updated? (if it is, it doesn't work for me)EDIT: Also, if you haven't seen, Bobcat has released a new version of HOME. That would be cool to see for RO, even if it doesn't have a real world analogue. Edited July 6, 2014 by physicsnerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattivat Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Large interstages constructed with procedural fairings are absurdly heavy. A 10 x 6 m one weighs over 13 tonnes, whereas a FASA Saturn V interstage of comparable size (10 x 5) only weighs slightly over 4 tonnes, and engineering courses seem to assume about 10 kilograms per square meter, which would translate to 1.9 t for the fairing part (net of the base part), versus over 6 tonnes that such a part weighs in PF. Actually every PF part (the thrust plate, fairings, etc.) has vastly overestimated weight when in large diameter, but it is most irritating in the case of interstages. Anyone tried writing a config to fix this?And yes, I'm using the latest version of PF, after they supposedly reduced the weight of large parts; they are still way too heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrandom Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Holy cow. I thought you were kidding, but I threw together a 10-wide x 6-tall interstage and it clocked in at 13 tonnes. A 6-wide x 10-tall is 4 tonnes so it almost looks like mass is being calculated for a solid object (cubic) instead of a hollow one (squared). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodo Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Holy cow. I thought you were kidding, but I threw together a 10-wide x 6-tall interstage and it clocked in at 13 tonnes. A 6-wide x 10-tall is 4 tonnes so it almost looks like mass is being calculated for a solid object (cubic) instead of a hollow one (squared).They could be made of depleted uranium? I can confirm yeah they are a bit to heavy. Noticed this lastnight, didn't pay it much attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 That's the price you pay for using infinitley flexible fairing s muahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattivat Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yep, the mass is reasonable up to about 6 meters in diameter, but once you cross that limit, it starts to increase almost exponentially.I would ignore it if they were "a bit too heavy", but they are approximately three times too heavy in my case, and that is far too much. Even after reducing the use of fairings to the absolute minimum I still have about 100 tonnes of them on my rocket (that includes interstages). I'm trying to do a manned mars-venus flyby mission, and I can't afford to lose that much mass to an obvious config failure.So, has anyone tried to solve that problem before? I've seen screenshots of some enormous RO rockets, so I'm assuming one of their authors might have came up with some solution to this bug. Right now the solution seems to be to use a copious amount of side boosters, as side decouplers are far more weight-efficient than interstages, which kinda goes against what this mod (RO) is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I've always used KW's interstages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrandom Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I hadn't noticed the mass issue before because I generally have had only one 10-meter interstage on my rockets (between the first and second stages), since lunar-capable rockets are the largest ones I've tried to build so far.I've always used KW's interstages.Inadequate for large RSS/RO rockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I hadn't noticed the mass issue before because I generally have had only one 10-meter interstage on my rockets (between the first and second stages), since lunar-capable rockets are the largest ones I've tried to build so far.Inadequate for large RSS/RO rockets. Since when? I use them just fine. What are you trying to interstage? A whole rocket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattivat Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Agathorn:I'm trying to lift a real-size replica of this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Orion_docked_to_Mars_Transfer_Vehicle.jpgAnd yeah, to be perfectly realistic I shoudl split this into two parts, but that wouldn't change a thing, since it's the diamater that is giving me problems, not the length. That thing is 7.5 meters in diameter, and that alone is enough to drive PF weight calculations nuts, regardless of the length.Perhaps if you are sending your astronauts to mars in mercury-sized command pods, KW fairings are adequate, but I'm trying to provide mine with a realistic amount of habitable space, so they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Agathorn:I'm trying to lift a real-size replica of this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Orion_docked_to_Mars_Transfer_Vehicle.jpgAnd yeah, to be perfectly realistic I shoudl split this into two parts, but that wouldn't change a thing, since it's the diamater that is giving me problems, not the length. That thing is 7.5 meters in diameter, and that alone is enough to drive PF weight calculations nuts, regardless of the length.Perhaps if you are sending your astronauts to mars in mercury-sized command pods, KW fairings are adequate, but I'm trying to provide mine with a realistic amount of habitable space, so they are not.Ok yeah they don't (currently) scale past 5m, though maybe that should change. After all there are engines up to 10m, maybe larger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrandom Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Since when? I use them just fine. What are you trying to interstage? A whole rocket?Ten meters in diameter. This is a pretty typical size for lower stages of large launch vehicles. KW fairings don't even come close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yeah right now all the scale's are limited to 5m. Not sure why that number was chosen. I hadn't really noticed because I still build smaller rockets Red/Nathan how do you feel about allowing the scale's to go up to 10m? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 By the way, i'm not saying abandon pFairings. The discussions got a little sidetracked. Right now RO isn't modifying pFairing masses. Maybe it needs to, or maybe there is a bug in pFairings. not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattivat Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I think it would be nice if Procedural Fairings or Procedural Parts could provide a dedicated "procedural interstage" as a single part. That would greatly simplify things both for players (faster construction) and for the modders (easier mass calculations). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 @Hattivat slightly off topic but i'm curious.. is there a parts pack for that Copernicus vehicle you are making? It looks so amazing in that concept! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattivat Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yes, and it's even RSS-ready: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/76841-%28RSS%29-Constellation-Essentials-v1-1-Copernicus-MTV-Trusses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yep, AIES sure isn't yet.Adding TweakSupport to AIES tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 If I may make a suggestion- NovaPunch now has a large new update, several new engines, and the pods have been updated. Perhaps the config for it could be updated? (if it is, it doesn't work for me)EDIT: Also, if you haven't seen, Bobcat has released a new version of HOME. That would be cool to see for RO, even if it doesn't have a real world analogue.I will take a look at the NP update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 RO includes a tweak to the old 2.x PFairing mass; it may be that the syntax changed for 3.x; I'll check. But the deeper problem is that interstages / fairing bases have a cube-of-radius mass, not any lesser power, which means that mass will scale with the cube of the radius. So while a 5m diameter (2.5m radius) interstage might mass 6.25t, a 10m diameter one would mass 25t.Note that the 12 tons that's been bandied about isn't totally out of line, however; the N-1 interstage between the first and second stages massed 13 tons!Also, what is this about 5m limits? I thought I added a patch to RO to remove that limit. I'll check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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