What's up with the ridiculous magnet strength on the docking ports?

[Razorcane]

I've been playing KSP for nearly 2 years and yet I've kept quiet about one glaring issue: the strength of the magnets between docking ports. They pull together so fast, over 0.5 m/s. It makes docking spacecraft with similar weights nearly impossible for me. This magnet strength is completely unrealistic and would cause a lot of problems in the real world. Real docking ports do not actually have magnets to avoid potential damage to a spacecraft, they just dock via clamps that keep a spacecraft in place. I've been hoping for a mod that allows us to control this parameter, but have yet to find such a mod. I hate docking so fast.

[Voculus]

Ask, and ye shall receive!

Tweakable Everything!

That includes the dock port magnetic force, as well.

[lammatt]

how about lining up the two ships better before going into magnet range

[LethalDose]

No, it's not realistic. But we also have crap for docking aides in the stock game (where the magnets are tuned to), and it's assumed that players have limited play time.

I think it's good compromise for playability. If you're having trouble, try getting the axes of the docking ports lined up first as suggested above, or try killing the SAS on one or both ships. Also, how large are these "ships of equal size". I've had very little trouble with two small ships getting lined up, it's the big ones that can cause me trouble.

[Superfluous J]

I always assumed it was to make them easier to dock, not harder. I've found that if you turn off SAS when magnetism takes over, you always get a lock eventually.

Tweakable Everything indeed will allow you to lower the power, but a way to lower it across the board would be nice. Sadly, magnetism strength doesn't seem to be in the configs so you can't just write a module manager config to set it for all ports.

[Razorcane]

how about lining up the two ships better before going into magnet range

I do. I'm excellent at docking actually. I was the first person to launch a vehicle into orbit and dock with a station in RSS. Usually I can combat the magnet strength, but some mods have unrealistic weights which makes small stations weigh the same as the manned spacecraft docking to it. There's no way to break the laws of physics, or at least what Harvester thinks is real physics.

No, it's not realistic. But we also have crap for docking aides in the stock game (where the magnets are tuned to), and it's assumed that players have limited play time.

I think it's good compromise for playability. If you're having trouble, try getting the axes of the docking ports lined up first as suggested above, or try killing the SAS on one or both ships. Also, how large are these "ships of equal size". I've had very little trouble with two small ships getting lined up, it's the big ones that can cause me trouble.

Well, this is advertised as a simulator, and simulators are, by their very nature, simulating something that already exists. Kerbal Space Program isn't really a simulator though, it's more of a sandbox. I generally have no trouble docking, only in special circumstances. I am very good at docking, probably one of the best. I can usually combat this magnet strength with RCS, but these are modded spacecraft with inaccurate masses, resulting in a station that weighs the same or less than the spacecraft docking to it, which is unrealistic.

[Pecan]

So you're complaining that, while docking is fine, your unrealistically modded spacecraft don't work with it properly? Why is this the fault of the docking system?

You might want to add "or could exist in an internally-consistent manner" to your definition of 'simulator' too, otherwise all the planets have to go for a start and only RSS, with already-existing engines, etc. would be possible ^^.

[Razorcane]

So you're complaining that, while docking is fine, your unrealistically modded spacecraft don't work with it properly? Why is this the fault of the docking system?

You might want to add "or could exist in an internally-consistent manner" to your definition of 'simulator' too, otherwise all the planets have to go for a start and only RSS, with already-existing engines, etc. would be possible ^^.

I'm not complaining about the craft. I'm saying that these two particular spacecrafts contain modded parts which is why I can't counteract the magnetic strength of the docking ports. Their unorthodox weights causes the net weight of each vehicle to be similar to the other.

As for the other thing, yea I could have said that, but I didn't feel the need since KSP isn't actually a simulator.

[Pecan]

Yep, but what I don't get is WHY you have to counteract the magnets?

ETA: Sorry, what I mean is I don't understand what actual problem they're giving you. Is it because your station is being pulled out of a nicely-tuned orbit/alignment instead of just the other ship being pulled in?

Edited July 6, 2014 by Pecan

[Razorcane]

Yep, but what I don't get is WHY you have to counteract the magnets?

ETA: Sorry, what I mean is I don't understand what actual problem they're giving you. Is it because your station is being pulled out of a nicely-tuned orbit/alignment instead of just the other ship being pulled in?

Ok let me see if I can explain it better. I'm more or less perfectly lined up (maybe a hundred millimeters off tops). I slowly move in at 0.1 m/s. When I get within range of the magnet, it forces me towards the docking port very quickly, over 0.5 m/s. The force created by the magnets causes them to bounce apart slightly when they touch, which changes the alignment and causes the spacecrafts to spin against each other.

I should also note that the weight of the spacecrafts that I have mentioned previously has no real bearing on this. The magnets are just way too strong. There shouldn't even be any magnets on a docking mechanism, as it causes all sorts of problems. A magnet that strong would cause electrical problems as well.

[Seshins]

Im pretty sure i can visualise what you mean, do you turn SAS off as soon as the docking process starts? I.e the force of the magnets is felt? Ive found if i leave SAS toggled it can cause some pretty terrible flexing and bouncing around.

[EdFred]

Never had this issue, and I've docked a 1 man lander can with a 200 tank, and a 48-7S with a "massless" battery pack and solar panels, and nothing else on it, to a clone. No issue like what you are talking about. SAS turned off on both when within 10m - and I don't even use RCS anymore with small craft.

[Razorcane]

Im pretty sure i can visualise what you mean, do you turn SAS off as soon as the docking process starts? I.e the force of the magnets is felt? Ive found if i leave SAS toggled it can cause some pretty terrible flexing and bouncing around.

I've been playing KSP for two years. That should be a good enough answer.

[ManaaniWanderer]

I've been playing KSP for two years. That should be a good enough answer.

Except it just tells us how long you've been playing, not how you play.

[Razorcane]

Except it just tells us how long you've been playing, not how you play.

Then yes, I do turn SAS off. Although it shouldn't really matter.

[Alshain]

I can't say I've had them bounce unless I wasn't lined up properly or was going too fast prior to the mag-lock. I usually dock @ 0.2 m/s and I've never had them pull me in faster than 0.5 m/s.

[Razorcane]

I can't say I've had them bounce unless I wasn't lined up properly or was going too fast prior to the mag-lock. I usually dock @ 0.2 m/s and I've never had them pull me in faster than 0.5 m/s.

That's still incredibly fast. Generally docking is supposed to be done at 0.1 m/s or less.

[Alshain]

I can't say I've had them bounce unless I wasn't lined up properly or was going too fast prior to the mag-lock. I usually dock @ 0.2 m/s and I've never had them pull me in faster than 0.5 m/s.

Define "supposed to". The 0.2m/s is my choice because there are no ill effect from doing it. I don't think there are any "supposed to's" in KSP. You can do it however you want.

[Razorcane]

Define "supposed to". The 0.2m/s is my choice because there are no ill effect from doing it. I don't think there are any "supposed to's" in KSP. You can do it however you want.

In the real world, docking mechanisms do not have magnets and docking is usually done at a very slow pace so as to not cause any damage to spacecraft/orbits and such. I think that should be mimicked within the game.

[BudgetHedgehog]

This magnet strength is completely unrealistic and would cause a lot of problems in the real world.

Here's an idea: quit comparing KSP to the real world and see it for what it really is: a damned video game. Yes it's unrealistic but it's not supposed to be! It's not Earth, you're not docking the Space Shuttle to the ISS, realism has literally jack to do with KSP docking. "In the real world, IRL, if it was realistic..." blah blah rubbish. You want realistic docking, install TweakableEverything and tweak the magnetic force way down. Others are perfectly happy docking in normal KSP because it works - it sacrifices realism for gameplay. And gameplay will always always win. Always. As I said, realism has nothing to do with anything in KSP. It's not a real-life simulator, it's a video game about a different planet with different physics - maybe they strengthened their ports to cope with the extra torque? Who knows, they're not Earth ports, they belong to a different planet. One that operates under a different set of rules and guidelines to Earth. Apart from the colours, Kerbin has literally nothing to with Earth and anything to do with it should never be compared to Earth because it's not supposed to Earth.

Kod dammit, you've made me mad.

Edited July 6, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP

[Razorcane]

Here's an idea: quit comparing KSP to the real world and see it for what it really is: a damned video game. Yes it's unrealistic but it's not supposed to be! It's not Earth, you're not docking the Space Shuttle to the ISS, realism has literally jack to do with KSP docking. "In the real world, IRL, if it was realistic..." blah blah rubbish. You want realistic docking, install TweakableEverything and tweak the magnetic force way down. Others are perfectly happy docking in normal KSP because it works - it sacrifices realism for gameplay. And gameplay will always always win. Always. As I said, realism has nothing to do with anything in KSP.

Kod dammit, you've made me mad.

That is your opinion. I am of a higher intelligence than most and I think a game that is advertised as a simulator should actually simulate things instead of just winging it. Perhaps it should be called a sandbox game instead of a simulator.

[Tery215]

That is your opinion. I am of a higher intelligence than most and I think a game that is advertised as a simulator should actually simulate things instead of just winging it. Perhaps it should be called a sandbox game instead of a simulator.

why does it have to "simulate" a lack of magnetic force?

maybe they just put magnets in it to make it easier on the noobs

it's not like that changes any simulation

[cantab]

You've said yourself that it's only actually stopping you docking with a couple of modded spacecraft. Thus it sounds like the mod in question is responsible. It's the job of mods to play well with the stock game and/or other mods if their authors so choose, not for Squad to make everything nice with every possible mod current and future.

The magnetic system works well enough in stock, effectively adding some leeway in the docking process. Considering we don't have hundreds of hours of flight training and aren't flying spacecraft precision engineered by a team of professionals working for several years, I think that leeway is needed.

EDIT: By the way, show me an official, reasonably recent source calling KSP a simulator.

Edited July 6, 2014 by cantab

[BudgetHedgehog]

That is your opinion

No, it's not my opinion - KSP has never ever been developed as an Earth simulator. Sure, it operates under similar rules of physics, but it has never been Earth simulator. A space simulator, absolutely. The orbital physics are very real and easily transferable to real life (and vice versa) - there's no 'burn straight up and you're in orbit' or 'spaceships are planes in space' tropes, the laws of physics still apply. But docking at 0.1m/s is an entirely Earth-constructed restraint and has no place in KSP.

I am of a higher intelligence than most and blah blah blah

Ok, with that, I'm out. Have fun playing with this entirely unrealistic game. I will, for sure. I'll dock a space station at 2m/s with another space station to refuel an SSTO spaceplane so I can go visit Laythe, which has a breathable atmosphere and then I'll come back with a NERVA powered tug and land with a lander powered by aerospikes. Every single bit of that is unrealistic, but it'll be a blast. Have fun not having fun!

[Razorcane]

You've said yourself that it's only actually stopping you docking with a couple of modded spacecraft. Thus it sounds like the mod in question is responsible. It's the job of mods to play well with the stock game and/or other mods if their authors so choose, not for Squad to make everything nice with every possible mod current and future.

The magnetic system works well enough in stock, effectively adding some leeway in the docking process. Considering we don't have hundreds of hours of flight training and aren't flying spacecraft precision engineered by a team of professionals working for several years, I think that leeway is needed.

EDIT: By the way, show me an official, reasonably recent source calling KSP a simulator.

"It's a real onion of a game, where each successful step forward is hard-earned but reveals a whole new layer of gameplay underneath. The developer's desire to ensure that each new update stand on its own means that at every stage, it feels like a complete and satisfying experience. It's a truly hardcore simulation, but one that is endearingly approachable and eager to get you grappling with the nuts and bolts of space flight." ~ Eurogamer critic Dan Whitehead.

Also, my issue is not with the modded spacecraft, it is with the ridiculously unrealistic strength of the magnets on docking ports. Most of the things about the game are simulated in a decent manner. However, when it comes to the magnetic strength of the docking ports, all physics is thrown out of the window. Physically, magnets that strong on that small of a docking port cannot exist. I do not have hundreds of hours of flight training either and within a week of picking up KSP I was able to dock perfectly with a station. The whole process is incredibly simple if you understand physics. I only have problems when the physics don't make any sense.

why does it have to "simulate" a lack of magnetic force?

maybe they just put magnets in it to make it easier on the noobs

it's not like that changes any simulation

That's certainly why they do it. But the reason that it should be simulated is because that is the very definition of simulation. To simulate something that actually exists. If you put two magnets at a meter apart, they won't pull each other together. You'd have to have a very large magnet for something like that. This is basic physics. At most the magnet would attract at 0.1 meters from the target.