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ferram4

[0.90]NEAR: A Simpler Aerodynamics Model v1.3.1 12/16/14

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OMG!!!:D OMG!!!:D OMG!!!:D

I had to minimize the game to report this (scientific and/or anecdotal?) finding about this mod.

For anyone on the fence about installing this mod, please read on. Others may skip to my test scenario.

I had previously tried FAR with mixed results. The GUI, though at times seemed helpful, did present a plethora of info that I didn't/couldn't use.

I was worried about installing FAR on my recent fresh install of 0.24.2 after a hiatus of about 6-8 months from KSP. Then I found out about NEAR about 4-5 days ago and finished reading all the posts on this thread this morning. I was worried, not only about how this plugin would co-exist with 34 other mods that I have installed, but also in terms of whether I'd be setting up too big of a challenge for myself to be able to enjoy this game after such a long time. (...and they've just released 0.25 just as I'm about to start a new career save:confused:)

Test Scenario:

To test this out I made two identical installs of KSP with all my mods, with the only difference of one running NEAR and the other stock.

The launch setup I used to test this out was:

1) Z-map satellite to 100 km orbit manually with NEAR

2) Z-map satellite to 100 km orbit with MechJeb with NEAR

3) Z-map satellite to 100 km orbit manually without NEAR

4) Z-map satellite to 100 km orbit with MechJeb without NEAR

I then repeated the same four scenarios with the stock Kerbal-X

Here's what I found:

i) MechJeb's Ascent Guidance doesn't mix well with NEAR (I know, I should have trusted so many other posts about this, but had to test it out for myself)

ii) For Z-map satellite, I ended up much higher when jettisoning the boosters with NEAR as compared to stock. I forgot to note down the fuel savings upon making the orbit.

iii) For Kerbal-X, in stock I was left with 605 units of fuel when I made it to 100x100 orbit. With NEAR, I had 1835 left!!!

Last time I used FAR, I remember getting frustrated at the ruthlessness (I really should blame my laziness and impatience) of this mod and ended up uninstalling it.

I've been used to the stock way of launching since 0.11 but was surprised at how quickly I adapted to the new aero model.

Maybe this time around I was more careful with my launches? I don't know. All I had to do was ensure that I don't stray too far off my velocity vector and tap the "D" key to pitch over. While trying to test out spaceplanes, I kept getting some error messages in the debug menu which I forget now. I'll try again in the next couple of days and report any issues if they reoccur.

In conclusion, anyone who is on the fence about installing this mod, I highly recommend it.

Sorry if this post is needlessly long. I didn't just wanna say "Thank-you" and/or "This mod is awesome"

I felt like I should candidly express my satisfaction while using this mod and declare my eagerness to keep using this mod in the future. I'm now tempted to try out FAR!

Thanks ferram4!

(Phew! I nearly gave in to the temptation to make a far-fetched pun based joke!)

Edited by iFlyAllTheTime

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OMG!!!:D OMG!!!:D OMG!!!:D

Welcome to the fan club. The main thing to remember is build sensible. If it doesn't look aerodynamic, try again. If your payload is 2x the length of your rocket, try again (it doesn't matter how much TWR it has, it will be uncontrollable). If it looks like something NASA would launch... good job. It really is that simple.

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Hi I am hoping someone can explain what i am doing wrong, i have Near installed as a dependency for B9 and the aircraft fly fine. However the Fasa Titan rockets do not they flip the minute they hit the gravity turn I use Mechjeb. Its driving me nuts I cant get a smooth flight path tried different start altitude and turn shapes no success any advice welcomed.

Edited by Virtualgenius

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Noted and fixed with a reupload.

Thanks for quick fix. I am going to download and test it now

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Issue confirmed, fixed, and a new version has been uploaded to fix the gamebreaking issue.

I was going to report a game-breaking bug, but... You just fixed it! :) Carry on then. Carry on.

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OMG!!!:D OMG!!!:D OMG!!!:D

(snip) I like N.E.A.R too!

Sabarin is working on the NEAR ext for MJ so hopefully it will be fixed soon.

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After trying it a couple of times I'm sticking with the stock aerodynamics.

Near/Far would be nice, if it didn't rip the wings out of my planes. Especially when using Joint Reinforcements mod. Or the planes would do as I tell them (When I say up, I mean up, not up and left).

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Then congratulations, you're applying ~5 times the forces that would have ripped the plane apart in real life. NEAR does not have special aerodynamic failure features, it just applies forces. If you applied those kinds of forces with engines, you'd rip the wings off too.

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Pic?

Because that sounds like either an install issue, or something you'd experience at the same speed in stock.

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you're applying ~5 times the forces that would have ripped the plane apart in real life

Maybe

Pic?

Here's a bird that got its wings snapped off immediately at the end of the runaway. Without even having to touch the controls, if I remember it correctly. I think one can just see through the fire and flames. Didn't find a better photo. Might try to replicate it with .25 to see the results.2014-10-03_00001.jpg

Edited by Las-pen

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Maybe

Here's a bird that got its wings snapped off immediately at the end of the runaway. Without even having to touch the controls, if I remember it correctly. I think one can just see through the fire and flames. Didn't find a better photo. Might try to replicate it with .25 to see the results.http://f.cl.ly/items/3e3C2F183N3k3j2M1n2A/2014-10-03_00001.jpg

You are going too fast.

Stock joints aren't indestructible.

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That photo was taken without NEAR. (Which is how the plane is flying in the first place)

And as I said, I am using Joint Reinforcements, so no stock joints for me.

And Wings getting ripped out wasn't my only problem with Near

But forget it. It's not that big a deal, since I'm not going to use it.

Edited by Las-pen

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For future reference, pictures at night, surrounded in flames is not a good way to figure out what's going on with a vehicle. I have no idea what configuration you have there, besides the fact that you have two engines.

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I'm sure this is probably a really, really, really dumb question, but there is a way to revert from 64 bits to 32 bits or i have to download the game again? I changed to 64 bits when the 0.24 was released, but now the game folder has changed.

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Gee. If I only knew I'd need that screenshot for something more that to look pretty on my desktop...

Anyways.

Another plane I made in 5 minutes. Not trying to be replica (fiery Vulture up there had mk1 cockpit and slightly different wings). I speed up, take off, and if I do even a slightest maneuver then *poof*. Figured it had something to do with those pointy things, but even without them the plane is difficult to control and eventually the wings popped off anyways.

2014-10-09_00009.jpg

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@Nagual: Yes, you will need to redownload the win32 build of the game rather than the win64 bit build.

@Las-pen: That should be perfectly fine. Looks like with all that wing area it should have a pretty low takeoff velocity, somewhere around 70 - 80 m/s, right? It needs more vertical tail though, those tiny things so close to the CoM aren't going to keep it straight, but that's a different problem.

For something that size, you really don't need both of those engines. That looks like the main problem here; too much engine, too much velocity, too much aerodynamic forces, too much for stock joints. I gather you want me to make joints unbreakable, then?

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Yep, if you're flying in air rather than soup, you go *really really fast*. That means the force of the air is *really really strong*. Try looking at your G meter when you make those maneuvers, and ask yourself whether a plane's wings are *supposed* to survive 20Gs.

Then try in stock, where your speed will be much, much lower (and the forces therefore much much much much [it's squared] lower), and see what the G-meter says.

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And what if I want to go "really, really fast", but keep the plane in one piece. It's a large planet.

Haven't even tried near with rockets, those tend to accelerate to high speeds

Another question: Is there mod that would add some sort of on/off switch for Near. Since yet despite all of this I find taking off to be more pleasant and stable with Near (provided the plane remains in one piece) but the flying itself in stock. (Or more specific, is that mod ISP difficulty scaler?)

Edited by Las-pen

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Using NEAR v1.2.1 (and no other mods) on KSP 0.25, when I try to take off in the stock Ravenspear Mk4 the jet engines spin up to 53.3 kN of thrust and then drops off when I'm still accelerating on the runway. This doesn't seem right at all. Has anyone else experienced this?I also noticed the same thing after not playing for a couple of months with an earlier version of NEAR on KSP 0.24.2 right before the update to 0.25.

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And what if I want to go "really, really fast", but keep the plane in one piece. It's a large planet.

Haven't even tried near with rockets, those tend to accelerate to high speeds

Then you need to learn how to fly. It's plenty doable, though:

screenshot381_zpsbca4cdd5.jpg

screenshot856_zpsea64ab8e.png

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@Las-pen: Want to go really, really fast? Keep your control inputs small, or go higher up. Rockets are the same way, and are likely to be much easier to deal with than planes, since you have no risk of getting a lot of lift from them.

And no, there is no way to toggle NEAR in-game, simply because of the changes it needs to make to get wing lift to work. Further, if you want the aerodynamic properties to change between takeoff velocities and high speed flight, you'd be better served by FAR, I think. That said, no, you can't have it scale between NEAR for takeoff and stock for regular flight. That doesn't even make any sense.

@qbg: That is correct. The basic jet is set up as a high-bypass turbofan, which spools up to 150 kN static thrust but loses all of its thrust by ~350 m/s. This is representative of the way turbofans behave in the real world, and its role is to get big, heavy planes up to speed to take off. Slapping a bunch on the back of a small plane is pretty pointless; maybe I should make them weigh more to balance their absurd (for a jet) thrust.

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