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ferram4

[0.90]NEAR: A Simpler Aerodynamics Model v1.3.1 12/16/14

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Hi, I noticed that trust of Jet Engine increases with angle of attack; especially during sharp turns. Is this bug or feature? :)

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Welp, first thing I felt the need to reply to in ages. I liked the intro post, but quickly realized that it'd probably be ill-supported compared to FAR, and not worth installing... then I read the name Ferram4... and realized that this is from the same dude. Or dudette.

I'm guessing it'll probably work as well as FAR then, since it does similar things and probably has a lot of the same codebase. I'm installing this, can't wait to try it. I love having a reason to use nosecones and fairings, but I dislike the mach effects and how different the physics are at high altitude compared to low altitude in FAR.

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Thanks for this. I was really hating having to deal with mach effects, but I didn't want to go back to the stock aerodynamics, either.

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Just a few quick questions:

"Is there a way out of an flat spin?"

"How do i plan re-entry with my spaceplane to land at ksc?"

"Is it normal to burn all the way down from 30km to ~5km in hot re-entry plasma with my spaceplane ( shallow re-entry angle )?"

"Also, is there a way to automatically balance a plane to keep CoM from drifting all over the place?"

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I'm not sure if anyone's said this before, but if they have it bears worth repeating. This mod is nearly impossible to find if it isn't near the top of the list of threads. You have to google a specific combination of words, namely ksp ferram neophyte. I'm thinking if you put ferram in the post title somewhere it'd make this much easier to find using the forum's search (which is generally the first stop when looking for mods in here). At least that way a simple forum search of Ferram would return both FAR and NEAR. Thanks for an awesome mod btw, the level of complexity here is just enough to be interesting but not too much so as to be frustrating.

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@impyre:

google: "ksp near aerodynamics", cuz forum search sucks!

Now back to my questions please :P

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Just a few quick questions:

"Is there a way out of an flat spin?"

"How do i plan re-entry with my spaceplane to land at ksc?"

"Is it normal to burn all the way down from 30km to ~5km in hot re-entry plasma with my spaceplane ( shallow re-entry angle )?"

"Also, is there a way to automatically balance a plane to keep CoM from drifting all over the place?"

"Is there a way out of a flat spin?"

That depends entirely on your aircraft. I've had some of my builds go into a flat spin and be completely unrecoverable, while others could recover. Namely, a flat spin is the craft's attempt to find a point of balance while in a drag-heavy state. The easiest method is to pitch down until you can recover... but how much you can pitch down will depend on how much changing the control surface orientation changes your craft's shape. For a large craft with small control surfaces, it likely won't help... but with a small craft and large control surfaces, you might recover easily.

"How do I plan reentry... KSC?"

Basically, you drop into the atmosphere planning to overshoot then essentially use a slalom-like path to slow down.

Here, Scott Manley shows a pretty good plane-type reentry starting around 15:25

"Is it normal to burn... "

Not really. Part of the point to using a space plane is that it can use its wings to burn off velocity during reentry and keep temperatures manageable. Of course, there are limitations. If you drop straight back from the mun you will come in pretty hot no matter what you do... generally to bring back a whole vessel (space shuttle) you'd want to establish stable low orbit over kerbin, and then reenter with apoapsis lower than 80-100km. If you have an apoapsis in that range, you should be able to reenter without a problem and without any retrograde burns in atmosphere. That said, if you pitch down too much you will start to speed up and see reentry effects happen. I believe the video above also shows an example of that as well. The main thing to consider is whether you have enough lift or not for the weight you are trying to bring down. I think the best way to figure that out is through experimentation.

"...balance CoM..."

Balancing CoM can be tricky, especially with shorter crafts. Try to put fuel near the front to offset the weight of the engine, use structural fuselage to set the engine further back. The center of lift should be between the CoM and center of thrust. This being said, if the center of mass shifts, the center of lift can end up in front. The easiest way is to make your craft longer, and put more weight toward the front to offset the weight of the engine(s) at the rear... this should give you plenty of room to put the wings somewhere in between. EDIT: Be aware though that to make taking off easy (if you use a traditional horizontal runway launch) the rear wheels should be somewhat closer to the CoM than the front wheels... this means that if your CoM is too far forward, you may end up accidentally knocking engines and/or tail pieces off when you go to pitch up off the runway (longer lever).

Edited by impyre

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Well, thank you! *hug*

That Flatspin sucks... i mean that thing tumbles down from like 30km to death... when i fly my RC-Pane it always stabilizes itself after flatspin if i put my hand away from controls, so is it possible to build a plane that does that in ksp with near?

I guess if i would try to do a slalom like "aerobrake" it would flat spin to death, but first i need to try that out anyway :(

Well i see my problem now... i need to slow down somehow not just "fly" with pitch 0.

But you have been a great help, thank you!

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The best way to prevent/help recovery from flat spins is to ensure that the aircraft is designed such that the drag at the rear is always greater than the drag at the front. This type of aircraft will always be stable in just about any situation... but it usually ends up looking like a dart. Thus you have a rocket with fins. Rockets with fins are super stable, even at high speeds, so long as center of mass and center of thrust are properly aligned and the drag profile has greater drag at the bottom.... kinda like a dart. However, rockets generally don't turn very quickly, especially not while in the atmosphere. Planes are meant to be more maneuverable, but the tradeoff is stability. You just have to find a balance that feels right for you. Also, the another point about center of lift, the further from center of mass it is, the more stable your craft will be in general (again, note that stability makes maneuvering harder).

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I just tried FAR for the first time yesterday and was overwhelmed. Then I see this! Thanks!

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About that, wouldn't it make sense to add a link to this from FAR? I doubt everyone even knows by now that NEAR exists, while most might know about FAR. When those hesitant to try that go check out the thread, maybe a hint that there is a toned down version wouldn't be a bad idea ;)

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Anyone got a good deadly reentry config that works better with NEAR ? I ask because deadly reentry isnt any great risk with near now, I tried modding it myself but it just ended up everything being destroyed on entery, need a pro balance it,lol

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Anyone got a good deadly reentry config that works better with NEAR ? I ask because deadly reentry isnt any great risk with near now, I tried modding it myself but it just ended up everything being destroyed on entery, need a pro balance it,lol

You can Press ALT+D+R ingame to get a settings window:

The great NathanKell himself describes what values to set if you want an more realistic re-entry here

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- - - Updated - - -

You can Press ALT+D+R ingame to get a settings window:

The great NathanKell himself describes what values to set if you want an more realistic re-entry here

Btw, unrelated, but is that image in your signature a colourised version of the cybrog lady from the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer?

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Anyone got a good deadly reentry config that works better with NEAR ? I ask because deadly reentry isnt any great risk with near now, I tried modding it myself but it just ended up everything being destroyed on entery, need a pro balance it,lol

Just my opinion here, but deadly reentry works very well with NEAR. I use it myself. I've had things be destroyed by reentry... but it's usually because of a lack of shielding or reentering too steep/fast. If you aren't having problems with heat, it may be a testament to solid reentry trajectories. Don't fix it if it ain't broke, knowatimsayin? I personally usually forgo shielding in favor of lighter weight. I control reentry temperature by using the engine bell as a shield (as it's designed to withstand high temperatures) and just throttle up a bit if it starts getting hot. For larger rockets, it can be difficult to maintain the appropriate direction (engine-first)... but generally it isn't a problem. Of course, if you really want it to be more difficult, I can play around with some settings if you still want help.

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Has anyone else find it is a PITA to get in atmosphere contracts completed early game because you are going way to fast by the altitudes it expects you to be at?

If so any advice on what to do to mitigate it?

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Has anyone else find it is a PITA to get in atmosphere contracts completed early game because you are going way to fast by the altitudes it expects you to be at?

If so any advice on what to do to mitigate it?

I adjust my throttle if it's not too bad. If it's way off, I get 'em on the way back down, when I know I don't need that fuel any more.

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I didn't see any change for nose cones in config of the last version 1.1.1.0, any chance to get some ?

Thanks for this mod, FAR looks a bit too much to me :), this one may be good and I like the "joke" on you mods'names ;).

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Is it just me, or is NEAR really, really unstable? Craft will fly unerringly as long as you keep pointed fairly close to the velocity vector, but as soon as you veer even slightly too far in any direction, the whole model just breaks down and craft will go into a permanent uncontrollable spin that even parachutes can't completely put a halt to. I'm pretty sure that's neither the expected nor desired behavior, and I'm fairly sure that FAR doesn't have this particular issue (certainly not to such an absurd degree, anyway).

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@Justin Kerbice: There are no special configs for nose cones because nose cones are not special. There's some weird myth about FAR and NEAR that nose cones are treated special by the mods; they're not.

@SkyRender: That sounds like causing a stall followed by losing control. If "too far" is around 15 - 20 degrees, then yeah, you stalled it. Just because NEAR is simpler doesn't mean that the overall behavior changes much; you'll want to do something to make sure your plane is able to come out of stalls, which basically means that you need to be able to get the AoA back down near 0 pretty quickly.

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I've been doing some propeller engines and was wondering how best to create the colliders on them to be compatible with FAR/NEAR. capsule colliders for individual blades? large disc that covers the blade's rotation space? no colliders at all?

so far I've tried a large disc, tested in latest FAR, doesn't seem to create the enormous drag I observe on other flat objects in previous versions of FAR. are engines treated differently from other parts?

for future reference, what other things should I keep in mind when creating parts for FAR/NEAR? Engines or otherwise...

Thanks!

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youd think it be possible to make a .bat file that automaticly makes all wing parts compatible with NEAR or on a slightly different topic, FAR? it doesent have to be a well made compatibility thing, just something that makes wings usable and mostly working with FAR or NEAR.

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If the bat file can figure out wing area and sweep angle, then yes. Be a pretty amazing bat file then.

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Ferram, just wanted to say thanks for making this.

I tried FAR out for a bit and it was just too much for me.

This is just perfect. It actually made me enjoy KSP plane building and flying now, so thanks for that.

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