A Modding Community Divided.

[regex]

We could for example create a MonoDevelop/XamarinStudio/VisialStudio/...-Plugin that automatically updates the meta-data (as far as possible) for you. When done properly you would even have to do less work than you have to do right now.

Who's going to write it? Is it going to be you? Please do, I'd use it. Will it automatically package and upload my mods for me? To Dropbox and Github? Man, that'd be great.

anyways, have a nice day!

So, is this thread done? Can we all go back to doing our respective things?

Maybe someday someone will come up with a solution for this perceived problem that benefits modders as well as users, instead of just adding unwanted workload to a hobby.

Maybe.

[ferram4]

I'd really like to meet you in person one day... I just cannot understand how someone can be so stubborn when someone shows up, wants to talk to you, and wants to work with you to make life easier for everyone. Such a project (be it what I proposed, or some other solution) would surely massively increase usability for end-users and could seamlessly integrate with your development environment.

It's not about the development environment at all, which hints that you haven't been reading my complaints. It's that it will result in more support requests for us modders. The development environment has jack to do with support requests, and interestingly, more users is going to mean more support requests, which means more work for me... so how is this easier for me again?

As I said, I really do not care if It's my proposed project, or anyone else. I just want something that works without making me spend days (!) trying to get mods working again when a new KSP release comes out. I do not want to read through 10 pages of posts to find out why X is currently not working 6 pages later someone posts a workaround, that according to 2 pages later does not work when condition Y is met, blah blah... and in the time i crawled through this mess of random posts the modder updated the mod again... It's just a pain in the ass right now IMHO.

Which is due to modders needing time to get the mod working with the update... no amount of additional package managing-meta data schemes is going to fix that. Packaging schemes cannot fix code that does not work.

ferram,

I do not know why you are scared to talk to me. I am really not a bad guy. I want to help everyone. Maybe that is my flaw. I can't just say screw it. But I think it is time. You guys simply do not want help. You can not comprehend that when more and more people start buying this game and using your mods that it would be beneficial to have a program that updates and properly installs your mods and CUT DOWN on support requests from people using outdated versions and incorrectly installed installed mods. I know you won't see it that way but that was how it happened at Nexus. The NMM came out and support requests dropped for this sort of thing.

And what happens when the manager breaks? It will break. They always break. There's no way around it, because software is not perfect. When that happens, and the support requests land in my thread, will there be fewer support requests? Will there be fewer when everyone's become too accustomed to push-button-receive-mod to get around the broken system? Every time a mod manager scheme gets proposed, it ignores failures of the manager and it ignores that it will not be updated forever... so what happens when your analysis includes that?

[Motokid600]

Its really hard to look years down the line and know what the situation will be. All I know is... right now.. the system works. And it works just fine. If I have a problem with a mod I do EVREYTIHNG in my power to diagnose and correct the issue MYSELF. If I cannot then I take all the information ive obtained in my own trouble shooting endeavors and give it to the author. Its easy.. it really is. If you have the ability to install mods, navigate sub folders then you SHOULD have the ability to be informative. Posting "Oh this mod crashed my game HALP!" As... others have said doesn't get anything done and only served to increase the time taken to arrive at a solution. So if your going to venture into modding.. ANY game then you have to be ready to trouble shoot and retrace steps. The user has to meet the modder/developer half way.

Come KSP 1.0.. will there be some sort of official mod manager? Maybe.. infact id wager yes there will be. Id LOVE for Squad to be able to come up with something themselves ( Space Port 2 ) and conduct everything in house. Because KSP WILL get more popular so more people will start modding their game and yes there will be more people crying for help for this or that. The ultimate solition? Idk.. the BEST thing though is what Nathan said pure and simple.

And.. that's all I could really add to this conversation. Im not a modder myself do I don't know all the ins and outs a modder must take for publishing, but if any process comes along that adds MORE work as Ferram said.. is not a solution. Just don't fix whats not broken.. at the moment. Also.. more players means more modders.. so keep that in mind as well.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Motokid600

[DasValdez]

But what is the harm of talking?

Almighty, I've read this whole thread... and I say the following with no offense intended.

The best thing you can do is stop bothering modders about this. You've already done a lot of harm simply by "pursuing their feedback" then openly disrespecting them when they give it to you. To lead with "I want to discuss with you" then follow up with ignoring, marginalizing, or simply not believing their answers, even when they repeat them over and over, doesn't accomplish anything.

In fact, your thread has probably hurt the chances of any change ever occurring. A few major developers have made appearances here, to be summarily dismissed and disrespected when their feedback doesn't resonate with your grand vision. This turns the developers off the topic. I understand your intentions, but some people are just not cut out to be project sponsors.

The more you push this idea, the more topic resistance you create among modders.

Cheers-

Das

[southernrock]

Its really hard to look years down the line and know what the situation will be. All I know is... right now.. the system works. And it works just fine. If I have a problem with a mod I do EVREYTIHNG in my power to diagnose and correct the issue MYSELF. If I cannot then I take all the information ive obtained in my own trouble shooting endeavors and give it to the author. Its easy.. it really is. If you have the ability to install mods, navigate sub folders then you SHOULD have the ability to be informative. Posting "Oh this mod crashed my game HALP!" As... others have said doesn't get anything done and only served to increase the time taken to arrive at a solution. So if your going to venture into modding.. ANY game then you have to be ready to trouble shoot and retrace steps. The user has to meet the modder/developer half way.

Come KSP 1.0.. will there be some sort of official mod manager? Maybe.. infact id wager yes there will be. Id LOVE for Squad to be able to come up with something themselves ( Space Port 2 ) and conduct everything in house. Because KSP WILL get more popular so more people will start modding their game and yes there will be more people crying for help for this or that. The ultimate solition? Idk.. the BEST thing though is what Nathan said pure and simple.

And.. that's all I could really add to this conversation. Im not a modder myself do I don't know all the ins and outs a modder must take for publishing, but if any process comes along that adds MORE work as Ferram said.. is not a solution. Just don't fix whats not broken.. at the moment. Also.. more players means more modders.. so keep that in mind as well.

Serious question for you authors though...Why does Nexus Mod Manager work so well for other games but not here? Why cant KSP move to Nexus instead of creating something from scratch?

[regex]

Serious question for you authors though...Why does Nexus Mod Manager work so well for other games but not here? Why cant KSP move to Nexus instead of creating something from scratch?

Why ruin a good thing? The forums work quite well. Also, NMM is Windows only; why sell the Mac and Linux users short? Plus, it apparently doesn't work with KSP if this is any indication.

[Mr Shifty]

Serious question for you authors though...Why does Nexus Mod Manager work so well for other games but not here? Why cant KSP move to Nexus instead of creating something from scratch?

Why doesn't NMM work for Minecraft or any Valve games or Blizzard games or Bohemia games or etc etc etc?

[ferram4]

Nexus Mod Manager is not good for KSP for the same reason as any other mod manager: the second it breaks, it means more support requests for me. Frankly, any game where a mod manager is considered necessary probably isn't a game that should be modded, IMO.

I'm not just against nexus. I'm against all mod managers because they hide what happens from the user (so they have no idea how the mod was installed), they make the barrier to entry lower (meaning more nasty, entitled users), and they can make many more support requests if they break (because all of a sudden, every single person using the mod manager will have the same issue). Users don't update when they're told an update is out either, so that feature isn't very useful, unless it updates against their will (which it shouldn't, tbh).

And all of that ignores the fact that it's one more place to upload things, which makes pushing a release more complicated.

[southernrock]

Why ruin a good thing? The forums work quite well. Also, NMM is Windows only; why sell the Mac and Linux users short? Plus, it apparently doesn't work with KSP if this is any indication.

Ruin a good thing? Not all of us think that the forums work well. Didnt realize it was only for Windows.

Why doesn't NMM work for Minecraft or any Valve games or Blizzard games or Bohemia games or etc etc etc?

I do not know, that is why Im asking the question.

Nexus Mod Manager is not good for KSP for the same reason as any other mod manager: the second it breaks, it means more support requests for me. Frankly, any game where a mod manager is considered necessary probably isn't a game that should be modded, IMO.

lol, Im sorry but that last part is funny. Fallout would be a ..... without a mod manager. I also dont ever recall NMM breaking. Maybe it did, but I have never had any issues what so ever with NMM. Once all mods are in and all conflicts are resolved, its usually smooth sailing.

I'm not just against nexus. I'm against all mod managers because they hide what happens from the user (so they have no idea how the mod was installed), they make the barrier to entry lower (meaning more nasty, entitled users), and they can make many more support requests if they break (because all of a sudden, every single person using the mod manager will have the same issue). Users don't update when they're told an update is out either, so that feature isn't very useful, unless it updates against their will (which it shouldn't, tbh).

And all of that ignores the fact that it's one more place to upload things, which makes pushing a release more complicated.

The last parts, I would never have had experience with so I cant say much on that end. I can only speak from my own experience with managers, which has always been great. It greatly simplifies everything and makes it quicker for me to actually get into the game and enjoy it instead of re downloading 40 zip files and placing each one into its place, which is tedious and can be frustrating. Thanks for all the feedback, it was educational.

[regex]

Not all of us think that the forums work well.

So what? It's not your decision to make how modding gets done around here.

[southernrock]

So what? It's not your decision to make how modding gets done around here.

And neither is it yours. This is an open community

[Superfluous J]

Who says anyone needs a say in how anyone distributes anyone's mods?

You did, unless I misread what you wrote.

Why do you believe he has no say? Does he not play KSP just like the rest of us?

What exactly does he have a say in, if not how someone else chooses to distribute mods? No player has any say in what any other player does. That person can ask, preferably nicely, for a modder to do something different. The modder can then either do the thing if it suits their fancy or - again preferably nicely - decline to do that thing. Whichever thing the modder chooses, that's it. You as a non-modder can come back if you have a different approach, but just stating over and over (no matter how nicely) will just get the modder mad at you.

The only way that what you're proposing would work is if all (or at least a vast majority of) the modders out there voluntarily conform to your standard. That's not going to happen. Ever.

[regex]

And neither is it yours. This is an open community

I've never claimed otherwise, son.

[Motokid600]

Ruin a good thing? Not all of us think that the forums work well. Didnt realize it was only for Windows.

I do not know, that is why Im asking the question.

The last parts, I would never have had experience with so I cant say much on that end. I can only speak from my own experience with managers, which has always been great. It greatly simplifies everything and makes it quicker for me to actually get into the game and enjoy it instead of re downloading 40 zip files and placing each one into its place, which is tedious and can be frustrating. Thanks for all the feedback, it was educational.

40? Yea, for KSP maybe. If that.. But games like Skyrim? 400. .. and it gets out of hand. A manger at that point would be very necessary. And is why I use NMM for all my Bethesda games. But for the moment KSP is small and relatively simple. The easiest game to modify out of all the games I've played. Installing a mod for KSP is quicker then Skyrim WITH the NMM. ( Depending in the mod. )

And sure is a hell of alot easier to trouble shoot.

But that will change. I'd like to think I speak for everyone when I say I see a bright future for this game. A game that inspires and entire generation of Astronauts. Mods are going to go through the roof. And for all I know ALL the present mods will be obsolete come 1.0. It will be Squad themselves who'll ultimately come up with this "solution". Which IMO is SpacePort 2. But severs cost money and money is money.

Tl;dr ... Consider Curse temporary until version 1.0.

[southernrock]

I've never claimed otherwise, son.

not your son, so please dont address me as such

Im trying to Moto. Curse has its own challenges lol. And getting 40+ is starting to enter the area of where its hard to manage. Im sure it will just continue to get worse lol. Thanks for the input!

Edited August 6, 2014 by southernrock

[TheAlmightyOS]

Almighty, I've read this whole thread... and I say the following with no offense intended.

The best thing you can do is stop bothering modders about this. You've already done a lot of harm simply by "pursuing their feedback" then openly disrespecting them when they give it to you. To lead with "I want to discuss with you" then follow up with ignoring, marginalizing, or simply not believing their answers, even when they repeat them over and over, doesn't accomplish anything.

In fact, your thread has probably hurt the chances of any change ever occurring. A few major developers have made appearances here, to be summarily dismissed and disrespected when their feedback doesn't resonate with your grand vision. This turns the developers off the topic. I understand your intentions, but some people are just not cut out to be project sponsors.

The more you push this idea, the more topic resistance you create among modders.

Cheers-

Das

Offence greatly taken.

I have not "openly distrespected" the modders

I did not ignore, marginalize or "not believe" their answers

Go take your intentions and blast them off to mun.

I am done with the all of ya.

[technicalfool]

And I'm done with this thread.