A Modding Community Divided.

[camlost]

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/88733

You (unfortunately) do not speak for most modders here. Link goes to my first public reaming on this issue.

You are right though. Curse is bad and Squad should have done their homework before handing it off

You should try to read other post carefully. I clearly said "official hubs" that is easy to use and rich in function. None of those choices fits into that catagory

[regex]

And yet, 90% of the ruckos on this thread is, no most modders arent willing to change over or do anything for that matter because it is them who are volenteering their time to make the mods, and they arent doing it for the users, but themselves, and this is all but a stupid request and their actually is no problem. Thats how it seems to me anyways. And its not about blame, thats not what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest a better method than what we have. It doesnt matter how we got in this postion, all that matters is where we are and how we proceed forward.

No, it's not that modders don't necessarily want to change, it's that there is little to no benefit to actually changing. Until there is a clear benefit for modders to change their methods nothing will come of threads like this one. You need to benefit the content authors in some way other than drawing in people who can do nothing but complain. The last thing MechJeb needs, for instance, is more ignorant people who can't be bothered to read, unpackage a zip file, and place it in the right location, or ask whether the mod works with their version of KSP when the title of the thread clearly indicates it does.

Find some way to clearly benefit modders over their current methods and you'll have your silver bullet. Until then, no one cares.

[TheAlmightyOS]

You should try to read other post carefully. I clearly said "official hubs" that is easy to use and rich in function. None of those choices fits into that catagory

I am confused by your use of "official hubs". There is only one, and that is curse. What choices do you believe we have that would fit your definition?

Find some way to clearly benefit modders over their current methods and you'll have your silver bullet. Until then, no one cares.

Which brings me back to why I want to talk. This just keeps going in circles....

I really just want to talk to mod authors and get some info. I don't want to change anything. I just want to collect data

Edited August 5, 2014 by sumghai
Consolidated consecutive replies by the same poster

[sal_vager]

Guys, Squad tried to provide an addon (yes I'll keep pushing this term for mods) repository but found it was too much effort to maintain themselves, they went for a 3rd party (we know who) because they want somewhere for addons and for modders.

It's still early days for Curse, the client will eventually support KSP and with any luck it'll be made cross-platform, but there's nothing nowhere that says modders have to use Curse.

If you want to put your stuff on dropbox, good on you, it's a fine service, if you want to put your stuff on Kerbalstuff, great, it's new but really nice.

The point is that your excellent mo...er I mean addons are somewhere and players can get them, enjoy them, and enjoy KSP even more thanks to modders efforts.

Sure, Curse (or more accurately, Curseforge) is the "official" place for addons, this is Squad saying "Lets have some support for these guys who mod our game, and not leave them with nothing"

Add to this the affiliate program, maybe someone has heard of such and such an addon, and ends up buying KSP so they can install it, and does it through your affiliate link, it's a nice way to say "thank you"

[TheAlmightyOS]

Sal, a fair number of "add-on" authors have said in no uncertain terms will they use curse. So even if/when the curse client supports KSP, many of those mods will be unavailable to those using that client. Like the community option of KerbalStuff, I think there is support for a community "Add-on" manager. I am just looking into that option. And my thread went and blew up.

[regex]

I really just want to talk to mod authors and get some info. I don't want to change anything. I just want to collect data

When I was actively maintaining releases and such all I wanted was a place to put the mod where people could download it, and a centralized location where I could showcase it and get feedback/bug reports. These forums + Dropbox (or even Github) fit the bill quite well. Was it a pain for users to search and find my mod? Maybe, but that didn't matter to me one bit; I mod for my own enjoyment and chose to share that with other people*.

Now, let's say I decided to host my mod on Curse. That gives me another location that I have to check for feedback/bug reports, and another location I have to showcase and make look pretty. It decentralizes and increases my workload. This is why the forums make a perfect showcase/discussion area for my mods. Other may not agree with that but that, again, isn't my problem.

Now that I am not actively maintaining but instead performing more of a supporting/debugging role for my favorite mods, I want a nice central location for the code I'm working on. GitHub works for that. Curse wouldn't, for the reason that Github tracks my commits publicly which makes my hobby more valuable because my Github account adds to my resume/CV (whatever the Euros call it).

.

* Some people understand this mindset and are excellent support for modders. They try to make modders' lives easier and provide useful feedback because making modders happy means modders have more fun doing what they enjoy, which generally means better content. Other people don't understand this mindset and feel entitled to the modder's work on their own time. These people suck the fun out of modding, which makes modders not want to do or share what they enjoy. This, in part, is why you see backlash against threads like this. No one cares if it's a pain for you. Make it easier for modders who are providing you content on their own time for free and you'll get results

Edited August 5, 2014 by regex

[TheAlmightyOS]

When I was actively maintaining releases and such all I wanted was a place to put the mod where people could download it, and a centralized location where I could showcase it and get feedback/bug reports. These forums + Dropbox (or even Github) fit the bill quite well. Was it a pain for users to search and find my mod? Maybe, but that didn't matter to me one bit; I mod for my own enjoyment and chose to share that with other people*.

Now, let's say I decided to host my mod on Curse. That gives me another location that I have to check for feedback/bug reports, and another location I have to showcase and make look pretty. It decentralizes and increases my workload. This is why the forums make a perfect showcase/discussion area for my mods. Other may not agree with that, but that, again, isn't my problem.

Now that I am not actively maintaining but instead performing more of a supporting/debugging role for my favorite mods, I want a nice central location for the code I'm working on. GitHub works for that. Curse wouldn't, for the reason that Github tracks my commits publicly which makes my hobby more valuable because my Github account adds to my resume/CV (whatever the Euros call it).

.

* Some people understand this mindset and are excellent support for modders. They try to make modders' lives easier and provide useful feedback because making modders happy means modders have more fun doing what they enjoy, which generally means better content. Other people don't understand this mindset and feel entitled to the modder's work on their own time. These people suck the fun out of modding, which makes modders not want to do or share what they enjoy. This, in part, is why you see backlash against threads like this. No one cares if it's a pain for you. Make it easier for modders who are providing you content on their own time for free and you'll get results

Thank you for shareing.

What I hear from you I am hearing from a lot of different authors: More locations mean more headaches. I can understand that. Back when you were still active, when you packaged up your mod did you do anything particular? Did you name it a specific way? Or did you just zip it up and send it to dropbox?

*And I do understand. But how can I learn how to make it easier for you guys if I don't know you guys I want to get to know you guys and the processes you use then piece it all together. Some of the ideas out there right now could very well make it easier on everyone but not if we don't have all the facts to base our work

Edited August 5, 2014 by TheAlmightyOS

[regex]

Back when you were still active, when you packaged up your mod did you do anything particular? Did you name it a specific way?

Here's an example (I'm surprised I still have this...):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lhebkztnptu5mp9/AABCLfZTF4bvj0lJgVPJ58rJa

Keep in mind that everyone does things differently. Some people have Github do the packaging, others work from a local directory structure that can be updated and thrown into a zip file (that's what I did locally), etc... The problem you will/are run(ning) into is that my process will vary wildly from pretty much everyone else's. What some people find efficient others don't. As this thread clearly illustrates, about the only consensus within the modding community is that we like to do our thing.

[neamerjell]

My $0.02:

As a mod user (I'm not a modder), I'm happy using the forum as my mod/addon repository. I get to watch videos showcasing the mod, read real reviews (not just a star rating), and post my own feedback. Modders often post several links to download the mod (Curse, Dropbox, GitHub, etc.) I don't see this as divisive, but just acceptance of the current situation. People will always resist change, even if it is for the better. People will always have opinions, not all of them good, but all are legitimate (provided they are expressed in a tactful way).

I agree with your sentiment that it is not the most newbie friendly way to do things, but I also agree with the user regex that it

forces users to be smarter and more aware of what they're doing.

Nobody is a newb forever, although the progression from newb to average user is (and must be) a bit faster here than other places. I credit the vast amounts of info and help available on the forums with my progression from total newbie to where I am now (relatively confident about what I am doing). Edited August 5, 2014 by neamerjell

[TheAlmightyOS]

Here's an example (I'm surprised I still have this...):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lhebkztnptu5mp9/AABCLfZTF4bvj0lJgVPJ58rJa

Keep in mind that everyone does things differently. Some people have Github do the packaging, others work from a local directory structure that can be updated and thrown into a zip file (that's what I did locally), etc... The problem you will/are run(ning) into is that my process will vary wildly from pretty much everyone else's. What some people find efficient others don't. As this thread clearly illustrates, about the only consensus within the modding community is that we like to do our thing.

Precise node?! This is yours?! Great stuff! On my must have list. But I thought you said you didn't maintain it anymore? My version is 1.0.0

So, along with the plugin you have the changelog txt and the source files. I see this in a few mods. Is the source code required by your license?

[regex]

Precise node?! This is yours?! Great stuff! On my must have list. But I thought you said you didn't maintain it anymore? My version is 1.0.0

blizzy78 maintains it now. My interest in coding for fun waxes and wanes as the difficulty in my professional life waxes and wanes (I was learning AngularJS and Phonegap, working on a terrible, soul-sucking project, when I handed it off). This is why I now just try to help out those mods I really like, it's easier for me.

So, along with the plugin you have the changelog txt and the source files. I see this in a few mods. Is the source code required by your license?

Read the license. E: Crap, i forgot, it's in source files, at the top of each file.

Edited August 5, 2014 by regex

[TheAlmightyOS]

My $0.02:

I'm happy using the forum as my mod/addon repository. I get to watch videos showcasing the mod, read real reviews (not just a star rating), and post my own feedback. Modders often post several links to download the mod (Curse, Dropbox, GitHub, etc.) I don't see this as divisive, but just acceptance of the current situation. People will always resist change, even if it is for the better. People will always have opinions, not all of them good, but all are legitimate (provided they are expressed in a tactful way).

I agree with your sentiment that it is not the most newbie friendly way to do things, but I also agree with the user regex that it Nobody is a newb forever, although the progression from newb to average user is (and must be) a bit faster here than other places. I credit the vast amounts of info and help available on the forums with my progression from total newbie to where I am now (relatively confident about what I am doing).

You are 100% Something that has gotten twisted in this thread is that I want to change this. I don't. I saw an issue with UPDATING and BROWSING mods, so I went though the progression of finding some sort of solution. First, I knew curse was quite disliked by the mod authors so I put up a poll about maybe finding and pushing for Squad to pick an alternative. Did not go well. People got to thinking I wanted to overhaul the whole **** thing. Personally, I do not mind using the forum to announce mods and the various options to host. It just makes updating and browsing a bit of an issue. But, if I can put all the pieces together and get two projects working together... I think I might be on to something.

[WololoW]

Honestly the only "problem" that this thread seems to be working towards 'fixing' is that you can not browse the <insert filter here(I.E. Top Downloaded)> mods on this forum.

Want to update the mods you found and added to KSP? Favorite that page in your preferred browser.

Want to find a mod that fulfills X? Search for it in your preferred search engine.

Want to browse mods with no filter? Welcome to the Add-on Releases and Projects Showcase!

Want yet another add-on to keep up to date so that it trys to keep other add-ons up to date? Personally, no.

[TheAlmightyOS]

blizzy78 maintains it now. My interest in coding for fun waxes and wanes as the difficulty in my professional life waxes and wanes (I was learning AngularJS and Phonegap, working on a terrible, soul-sucking project, when I handed it off). This is why I now just try to help out those mods I really like, it's easier for me.

Read the license.

Ah, just asking cause I didn't see a license in there.

I have a spark of an idea. talk it out with me if you would.

So, as you know I am looking at two projects:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85989

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/79745

The first, full of misguided ideas (including those by yours truly), actually aims at creating a meta-data repository for mods. The general idea is that modders or "maintainers" create a meta-file that has the directory structure of the mod, licences, author, download location, etc. It is ok in theory but not practical in my opinion

Second, you have KVC, a full fledged working mod that is currently being used by a list of mods already. Each mod that supports KVC has a small *.version file somewhere in the mod directory. This file is created by going to an online site that generates the file and updates a database.

Now, what if we combine these two? Add some select meta-data to the version file.

BUT, how would that help the mod author? For the example of PreciseNode, what would you gain? Well, the imitate answer is you get less people spamming your thread saying your mod doesn't work cause they have an outdated version. However, I think we could do much much better.

The authors would need a way to generate this file(s). So why not an application, maybe written in java, that would create the files and update the online database? Why make it stop there? Have it update the changelog and then upload the file for you! I know you said you did not not like uploading to multiple locations. What if this tool did it for you? But, of course, then you have multiple support locations so actually that would not be of benefit.

This all ramblings going off what people have told me thus far.

Edited August 5, 2014 by TheAlmightyOS

[TheAlmightyOS]

Honestly the only "problem" that this thread seems to be working towards 'fixing' is that you can not browse the <insert filter here(I.E. Top Downloaded)> mods on this forum.

Want to update the mods you found and added to KSP? Favorite that page in your preferred browser.

Want to find a mod that fulfills X? Search for it in your preferred search engine.

Want to browse mods with no filter? Welcome to the Add-on Releases and Projects Showcase!

Want yet another add-on to keep up to date so that it trys to keep other add-ons up to date? Personally, no.

really, you criticize my efforts yet have a link to a "modlist" in your sig? Should I tell you the only problem you are trying to solve with that has already been solved HERE?

You are not even mod author! If you are not going to be constructive then go away

[Alshain]

Sal, a fair number of "add-on" authors have said in no uncertain terms will they use curse. So even if/when the curse client supports KSP, many of those mods will be unavailable to those using that client. Like the community option of KerbalStuff, I think there is support for a community "Add-on" manager. I am just looking into that option. And my thread went and blew up.

A fair number of authors have said they won't use KerbalStuff. Same problem.

[TeddyDD]

It's just the fact you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem exists. You know how much time takes to manually update 30 mods?

[regex]

The problem exists.

Even if it does, you really don't have any say in it.

You know how much time takes to manually update 30 mods?

About an hour or so, another hour to vet everything and make changes. Quite frankly that's a damn sight better than the time I used to spend making Oblivion or Fallout 3 work. KSP is easy mode.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Even if it does, you really don't have any say in it.

Why do you believe he has no say? Does he not play KSP just like the rest of us?

[sarbian]

The last thing MechJeb needs, for instance, is more ignorant people who can't be bothered to read, unpackage a zip file, and place it in the right location, or ask whether the mod works with their version of KSP when the title of the thread clearly indicates it does.

Find some way to clearly benefit modders over their current methods and you'll have your silver bullet. Until then, no one cares.

Regex, will you mary me ?

[regex]

Why do you believe he has no say? Does he not play KSP just like the rest of us?

S/he certainly doesn't have a say in how I do things, like packaging or presenting my mods, and I daresay that goes for the rest of the modders around here too.

Regex, will you mary me ?

Sorry homie, already hitched.

[TeddyDD]

I just think that if we can do some things better then why not try it?

I really like the idea of the metadata packages. I was curious about response of mod developers. Well... I understand your point of view. But I do not think that because updating mods in other games is difficult, in the KSP, we must be satisfied with what we have now. I'm not saying that is bad, but could be much better.

[regex]

I just think that if we can do some things better then why not try it?

I really like the idea of the metadata packages. I was curious about response of mod developers. Well... I understand your point of view. But I do not think that because updating mods in other games is difficult, in the KSP, we must be satisfied with what we have now. I'm not saying that is bad, but could be much better.

This is very true. To make this work you need to come up with a system that draws in modders and makes things easier for them, a system that is clearly superior to their way of doing things. You need to benefit the modders. If you can't come up with a system that does that, you'll never realize your goal. You also need to realize that you're not going to persuade everyone, either.

[sarbian]

The problem with the metadata approach is that either the mod authors maintain the metadata and that's more work (and if the format is complex then non coder may not be able to do it), or someone else does it and it adds potential errors and delay that will be pinned on the modder (if you expect users to see that the modder is not to blame you're fooling yourself)

Now I'll cry myself to sleep after being rejected.

[TheAlmightyOS]

S/he certainly doesn't have a say in how I do things, like packaging or presenting my mods, and I daresay that goes for the rest of the modders around here too.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I see no mention of telling you how to do things. Only stating that there is an issue. That issue is not with the mod authors. That does not mean that issue does not exist.

The problem with the metadata approach is that either the mod authors maintain the metadata and that's more work (and if the format is complex then non coder may not be able to do it), or someone else does it and it adds potential errors and delay that will be pinned on the modder (if you expect users to see that the modder is not to blame you're fooling yourself)

Now I'll cry myself to sleep after being rejected.

EXCELLENT!!! This is the kinda stuff I have been looking for. Not you crying or being rejected, that would just be mean and... I am just going to stfu on that.

Anywho, THANK YOU for your input on the metadata approach. Sarbian, at first glance I do not see your mods listed on the KSP-AVC Plugin. Is it safe to say that you do not use this in your mods? If not, may I ask what brought you to that decision?

Edited August 5, 2014 by sumghai
Consolidated consecutive replies by the same poster