[1.0.4] ESLD Jump Beacons - [Dev 0.6a]

[scottpaladin]

RoverDude, since you are here. Considering this mod uses Karbondonum, I'm still confused as to if you need Karbonite plus or not. Can you use JUST Karbonite and have this work or is K+ a dependency, I've read through the wiki and can't really determine if its required or not.

According to TMarkos, Karborundum should be tweakable if you haven't got Karbonite or K+. If you've got just Karbonite, it's not tweakable, but you can distill it from Karbonite. Finally if you've got K+, you can't distill it, you'll have to go and get some from Kerbol, Eeloo or Eve.

[RoverDude]

According to TMarkos, Karborundum should be tweakable if you haven't got Karbonite or K+. If you've got just Karbonite, it's not tweakable, but you can distill it from Karbonite. Finally if you've got K+, you can't distill it, you'll have to go and get some from Kerbol, Eeloo or Eve.

That's my understanding as well, although IMO a compromise that makes things less confusing would be to have a very expensive conversion process that uses a resource you can't get on rails through collection (otherwise there's no point, people will just set up collectors in the background and remove the challenge). In that circumstance, K+ just adds an alternate method of acquisition. So now you're down to just tweakable if Karbonite is not present, non-tweakable if it is, with one or more method of acquisition.

[forsaken1111]

That's my understanding as well, although IMO a compromise that makes things less confusing would be to have a very expensive conversion process that uses a resource you can't get on rails through collection (otherwise there's no point, people will just set up collectors in the background and remove the challenge). In that circumstance, K+ just adds an alternate method of acquisition. So now you're down to just tweakable if Karbonite is not present, non-tweakable if it is, with one or more method of acquisition.

Easy enough. Add in a 'filter' or 'catalyst' resource that the converter requires to perform which can only be gotten in the VAB.

[scottpaladin]

That's my understanding as well, although IMO a compromise that makes things less confusing would be to have a very expensive conversion process that uses a resource you can't get on rails through collection (otherwise there's no point, people will just set up collectors in the background and remove the challenge). In that circumstance, K+ just adds an alternate method of acquisition. So now you're down to just tweakable if Karbonite is not present, non-tweakable if it is, with one or more method of acquisition.

I rather think I agree with you, RoverDude. I was thinking about this this morning and I quite like the microgravity conversion idea that had been brought up earlier in the thread. You take two resources that you can't get in microgravity (say Karbonite and Uranium) and you have to get them both (either gathered or from the VAB) out to a ship far from the gravity well of a planet, then do your conversion to get a little bit of Karborundum. Although for preference you'd want two resources that you just CAN'T get in the same place.

Rather than players investing a bunch of in-game time warping on rails to convert/gather minute amounts of stuff into Karborundum, they have to invest player time going to a couple of places to get it done.

Edited September 5, 2014 by scottpaladin

[RoverDude]

I rather think I agree with you, RoverDude. I was thinking about this this morning and I quite like the microgravity conversion idea that had been brought up earlier in the thread. You take two resources that you can't get in microgravity (say Karbonite and Uranium) and you have to get them both (either gathered or from the VAB) out to a ship far from the gravity well of a planet, then do your conversion to get a little bit of Karborundum. Although for preference you'd want two resources that you just CAN'T get in the same place.

Rather than players investing a bunch of in-game time warping on rails to convert/gather minute amounts of stuff into Karborundum, they have to invest player time going to a couple of places to get it done.

EnrichedUranium is a decent CRP resource we already have. My only skin in the game is to prevent there being a way to get Karborundum that renders mining irrelevant

[scottpaladin]

EnrichedUranium is a decent CRP resource we already have. My only skin in the game is to prevent there being a way to get Karborundum that renders mining irrelevant

I'll admit I feel like I've got a little skin in the game just because I've got some plans for Karborundum myself, and I'd like it to be a challenge to gather.

Hm.. EnrichedUranium is tweakable though. In a perfect world, I think you'd have at best one resource you can get in the VAB. So you can't just launch a rocket with both EnrichedUranium and Karbonite from the VAB, go straight to high orbit and convert yourself up some Karborundum. You'd like to design a challenge that is at least on par with going to Eve, Eeloo or Kerbol. I think if I was given those options or, say, going to two different locations (another medium/low difficulty planet to gather and a very low gravity orbit to process) I'd give serious consideration to both.

The CRP is a little thin on non-tweakable candidates though. Actinides and Depleted Uranium are just a nuclear reactor + time. Megajoules, Waste Heat, and IntakeATM are out for obvious reason. Charged particles and exotic matter got removed from KSPI, right? I don't know enough about NFT to speak to Polytetrafluoroethylene but it doesn't have an ORS name so I have to assume it's not gatherable. My first thought for a candidate was Antimatter, but it became VAB available in KSPI-Lite. This will require some additional pondering.

Edited September 5, 2014 by scottpaladin

[Draft]

Maybe I'm just not using them right, but particle collectors aren't nearly productive enough around Kerbin to be remotely useful for karborundum distillation, at least not without time-warping for years at which point I'd say the exploit potential is negligible.

[scottpaladin]

Maybe I'm just not using them right, but particle collectors aren't nearly productive enough around Kerbin to be remotely useful for karborundum distillation, at least not without time-warping for years at which point I'd say the exploit potential is negligible.

Which particle collectors? KSPI or Karbonite?

[Draft]

Karbonite, I haven't kept up with KSPI

[scottpaladin]

Karbonite, I haven't kept up with KSPI

Using the particle collectors to get karbonite at Kerbin aren't really the worry. I think it'd be easier to just launch a rocket filled with it from the VAB, or mine it on the Mun.

[undercoveryankee]

I'll admit I feel like I've got a little skin in the game just because I've got some plans for Karborundum myself, and I'd like it to be a challenge to gather.

Hm.. EnrichedUranium is tweakable though. In a perfect world, I think you'd have at best one resource you can get in the VAB. So you can't just launch a rocket with both EnrichedUranium and Karbonite from the VAB, go straight to high orbit and convert yourself up some Karborundum. You'd like to design a challenge that is at least on par with going to Eve, Eeloo or Kerbol. I think if I was given those options or, say, going to two different locations (another medium/low difficulty planet to gather and a very low gravity orbit to process) I'd give serious consideration to both.

The CRP is a little thin on non-tweakable candidates though. Actinides and Depleted Uranium are just a nuclear reactor + time. Megajoules, Waste Heat, and IntakeATM are out for obvious reason. Charged particles and exotic matter got removed from KSPI, right? I don't know enough about NFT to speak to Polytetrafluoroethylene but it doesn't have an ORS name so I have to assume it's not gatherable. My first thought for a candidate was Antimatter, but it became VAB available in KSPI-Lite. This will require some additional pondering.

ChargedParticles aren't used in KSPI Lite, but the resource definition is still in CRP. Not a good choice, as it's a zero-density resource that was produced in old-KSPI reactors.

ExoticMatter is in CRP; old KSPI had it generated by the Alcubierre drive that used it. I haven't checked whether KSPI Lite changes that. Add a way to generate or harvest it without an Alcubierre drive, and it might work.

Helium-3 is actually a decent choice. It's an old-KSPI resource that's still in CRP but not used in KSPI Lite. It's tweakable by default, but setting it to non-tweakable shouldn't break anything. The only source currently configured is Jool's atmosphere. Given the real-life debate over how much He3 might be recoverable from rocks on airless bodies, you might add a limited surface concentration to Tylo to give a choice of challenges for recovering it.

We also have a CRP definition for Plutonium-238. Was defined in old KSPI for use with some RTG-lifespan code that was never applied to any parts. No sources are currently defined, but the resource definition exists and is unlikely to be used for anything else.

Edited September 5, 2014 by undercoveryankee

[RoverDude]

ChargedParticles aren't used in KSPI Lite, but the resource definition is still in CRP. Not a good choice, as it's a zero-density resource that was produced in old-KSPI reactors.

ExoticMatter is in CRP; old KSPI had it generated by the Alcubierre drive that used it. I haven't checked whether KSPI Lite changes that. Add a way to generate or harvest it without an Alcubierre drive, and it might work.

Helium-3 is actually a decent choice. It's an old-KSPI resource that's still in CRP but not used in KSPI Lite. It's tweakable by default, but setting it to non-tweakable shouldn't break anything. The only source currently configured is Jool's atmosphere. Given the real-life debate over how much He3 might be recoverable from rocks on airless bodies, you might add a limited surface concentration to Tylo to give a choice of challenges for recovering it.

Option B. I'll soon be adding to CRP all of the old Squad resources (Propellium, Blutonium, etc.) which gives us more candidate.

[scottpaladin]

ChargedParticles aren't used in KSPI Lite, but the resource definition is still in CRP. Not a good choice, as it's a zero-density resource that was produced in old-KSPI reactors.

ExoticMatter is in CRP; old KSPI had it generated by the Alcubierre drive that used it. I haven't checked whether KSPI Lite changes that. Add a way to generate or harvest it without an Alcubierre drive, and it might work.

Helium-3 is actually a decent choice. It's an old-KSPI resource that's still in CRP but not used in KSPI Lite. It's tweakable by default, but setting it to non-tweakable shouldn't break anything. The only source currently configured is Jool's atmosphere. Given the real-life debate over how much He3 might be recoverable from rocks on airless bodies, you might add a limited surface concentration to Tylo to give a choice of challenges for recovering it.

We also have a CRP definition for Plutonium-238. Was defined in old KSPI for use with some RTG-lifespan code that was never applied to any parts. No sources are currently defined, but the resource definition exists and is unlikely to be used for anything else.

Option B. I'll soon be adding to CRP all of the old Squad resources (Propellium, Blutonium, etc.) which gives us more candidate.

The Joolian system would be a pretty good spot to find the secondary resource to combine with Karbonite; it's probably the easiest place to reach after Kerbin's moons. Combining something realistically named like Helium-3 with our kerbalized named Karborundum sounds a bit weird thematically (not egregiously so but still); Maybe the old Squad resources are a better fit.

Edit: I hate to swell the part count by adding another collector, are we comfortable tacking on another module to one of the existing ones (Karbonite or KSPI)?

Edited September 5, 2014 by scottpaladin

[RoverDude]

The Joolian system would be a pretty good spot to find the secondary resource to combine with Karbonite; it's probably the easiest place to reach after Kerbin's moons. Combining something realistically named like Helium-3 with our kerbalized named Karborundum sounds a bit weird thematically (not egregiously so but still); Maybe the old Squad resources are a better fit.

Edit: I hate to swell the part count by adding another collector, are we comfortable tacking on another module to one of the existing ones (Karbonite or KSPI)?

K+ is fairly light on parts right now. I have some other contenders as well. Let me noodle it over.

[GrimT]

K+ is fairly light on parts right now. I have some other contenders as well. Let me noodle it over.

This might be a silly question but where might I grab a copy of K+? I don't see a specific download for it anywhere :/

[undercoveryankee]

Of the Squad resource names, I'd expect the basic Propellium and Oxium to be more widespread than we want for the karborundum precursor. But something like hexagen or zeonium could be made suitably rare. If the best source of the precursor is in Jool's atmosphere, that would also add another step to the process that couldn't be done on rails.

[RoverDude]

This might be a silly question but where might I grab a copy of K+? I don't see a specific download for it anywhere :/

Not released yet sorting through these questions so I can release it

Of the Squad resource names, I'd expect the basic Propellium and Oxium to be more widespread than we want for the karborundum precursor. But something like hexagen or zeonium could be made suitably rare. If the best source of the precursor is in Jool's atmosphere, that would also add another step to the process that couldn't be done on rails.

I like that

[scottpaladin]

Of the Squad resource names, I'd expect the basic Propellium and Oxium to be more widespread than we want for the karborundum precursor. But something like hexagen or zeonium could be made suitably rare. If the best source of the precursor is in Jool's atmosphere, that would also add another step to the process that couldn't be done on rails.

This sounds like the best solution so far. Karborundum can be tweakable without Karbonite (but expensive). But if you've got Karbonite, you can fly yourself out to Jool and gather up a mess of zeonium and karbonite (if you want to make this tedious, ensure they can't do both at the same time) from its atmosphere but you can't process any of it yet. You have to fly far enough out from Jool to start processing it into Karborundum. Or, if that doesn't appeal, you can grab K+ and truck yourself out to Eeloo, brave the depths of Eve's atmosphere or dive into the sun to get some Karborundum directly.

[Draft]

I'm... not a fan of that, honestly. Just because the CRP means that every mod that bundles it can use every resource under the sun, doesn't necessarily mean it should. Installing Karbonite to extend ESLD should just do so through interaction with karbonite itself and alone, in my opinion.

[scottpaladin]

I'm... not a fan of that, honestly. Just because the CRP means that every mod that bundles it can use every resource under the sun, doesn't necessarily mean it should. Installing Karbonite to extend ESLD should just do so through interaction with karbonite itself and alone, in my opinion.

The problem being that if you let people make karborundum from a single tweakable resource (karbonite), rather then being incentivized to head off into the wild black yonder in search of that sweet sweet karborundum, the quickest (in player time) way to get it will be to load up twelve karbonite tanks and a distiller on the launchpad start the conversion and warp until they've got as much karborundum as they need. Karborundum is the tantalizing cool thing that takes you out to those places that are normally too troublesome to visit.

[Draft]

Hence the idea of 0g-required distilling, making it more worthwhile to source the karbonite from offworld.

[RoverDude]

The problem being that if you let people make karborundum from a single tweakable resource (karbonite), rather then being incentivized to head off into the wild black yonder in search of that sweet sweet karborundum, the quickest (in player time) way to get it will be to load up twelve karbonite tanks and a distiller on the launchpad start the conversion and warp until they've got as much karborundum as they need. Karborundum is the tantalizing cool thing that takes you out to those places that are normally too troublesome to visit.

Hence the idea of 0g-required distilling, making it more worthwhile to source the karbonite from offworld.

Thing is... 0g distilling is still in the same boat, just launch it up and wait.

Side note - just realized other resources that are non-tweakable are out, becuase that implies the use of extractors and drills.

You have limited levers unfortunately. Time is never one of them nor are power costs because these are spammable for (essentially) free. The ones you have left are forced scarcity, forced manual intervention, or cost.

So running down those - 0G certainly helps, but I'd still couple that with a VAB-able resource to add the cost lever. Pushing towards Karbonite harvesting once again implies a dependency path, which is precisely what TMarkos is looking to avoid. So if we go with VAB'able, we can combine cost with manual intervention as well as some mechanics with 0g. And I think you may need a second CRP resource to get that cost high enough (both in terms of mass and in terms of funds). i.e. enriched uranium is almost 50 x more expensive than Karbonite.

[scottpaladin]

Thing is... 0g distilling is still in the same boat, just launch it up and wait.

Side note - just realized other resources that are non-tweakable are out, becuase that implies the use of extractors and drills.

You have limited levers unfortunately. Time is never one of them nor are power costs because these are spammable for (essentially) free. The ones you have left are forced scarcity, forced manual intervention, or cost.

So running down those - 0G certainly helps, but I'd still couple that with a VAB-able resource to add the cost lever. Pushing towards Karbonite harvesting once again implies a dependency path, which is precisely what TMarkos is looking to avoid. So if we go with VAB'able, we can combine cost with manual intervention as well as some mechanics with 0g. And I think you may need a second CRP resource to get that cost high enough (both in terms of mass and in terms of funds). i.e. enriched uranium is almost 50 x more expensive than Karbonite.

It's not really useful to us but I can think of another lever: manpower. If the karbonite > karborundum converter requires a substantial number of kerbals on board to work, it increases the complexity, mass and cost of the ship required to make the converter work (and thus the amount of time and effort the player has to invest). EPL and (to and extent) MKS/OKS are already using this lever. But I don't think it's a good fit in this case.

I suppose we can kick the issue around until we're all sick of it; there comes a point when you've just got to pick a solution and go with. If you've got two VABable resources, one heavy/bulky and one expensive that you have to haul all of out past the orbit of Minmus just to make yourself some karborundum that's not so bad (read: it's not so easy).

[MisterBennock]

Just wanted to bump and say that I really like this idea. And it has so much thoughtt put in. Downloaded, testing, awaiting more. Hope you'll find the time to work on it mang.

[smart013]

Just started to play with this mod, and wanted to say that i really like the descriptions. Really funny, really kerbal