[1.x+] Community Resource Pack

[RoverDude]

Thanks Nertea! Just toss me over a config set and mark them in the working doc as complete and I will integrate it.

Also, ping me on IRC!

[futrtrubl]

If we assume that the ratios are indeed relative to the Sun, we got the follow abundances as a first pass:

[B]Elemental[/B] volume-abundance by percent
He/H	15.7%
Ne/H	0.00246%
Ar/H	0.00181%
Kr/H	8.694 E -7 %
Xe/H	8.736 E -8 %
C/H	0.105%
N/H	 0.04% (8 barr)
O/H	 0.049% (19 barr, upper limit)
P/H	3.06 E -5 %
S/H	 0.004%

This is only a first pass. It doesn't account for Hydrogen-compounds containing more than two Hydrogen atoms, such as Ammonia, Methane, etc. Nor that Hydrogen does not comprise 100% of Jupiter or the Sun...

Note that all the values are obtained by multiplying the values in the first and second columns, and then multiplying by 2 for all noble gasses (since Hydrogen is a diatomic molecule, and all noble gasses are monoatomic).

Once again, the ratios given were not mass ratios, they were raw elemental abundances, and they were not percentages- they were raw ratios (so a value of 0.5 is 50%, for instance) so the table you posted is not at all accurate.

Regards,

Northstar

Yes I said they were not mass ratios and then converted them to mass ratios, as I said. I also said that I converted the fractions to relative percentages. So my table is accurate.

[RoverDude]

And side note... I would not get too worried about precise numbers for resource harvesting because all bets are off the second another mod uses the same thing anyway (Regolith will take the most optimistic combination of both). Easier to focus on what you need in place for gameplay.

[Northstar1989]

I'm back now and will have a look at my costs in a bit (as per the method I described a few pages ago).

I hope you don't mind my asking- which post did you describe this method in again?

You saw my comment on the price of ArgonGas needing attention, right? Personally, it is one of the resources I am most concerned about- as it is the second most abundant resource after Carbon Dioxide on Duna/Mars (2% of the atmosphere by volume), and thus is one of the resources players are most likely to launch with a full tank of and then refuel in the field in practice...

Regards,

Northstar

[RoverDude]

Funds = USD * 0.173 (so about 5.78 USD per fund)

EL and USI use a rate of 5 USD per fund, so almost the same thing.

This is based on assuming LFO = Kerosene.

Side note... yeah, don't use RF conversion factors. They have you paying $160/L for LiquidFuel. Thanks Obama!

So, if you look at cost per gram of Argon gas in 2015 USD in light of the formula above (assuming a cost of about 50 cents for 100 grams), the current value looks fine to me. In RF land, it's about 200 times more expensive (not even taking into account inflation, which makes that difference more like 1500 times more expensive).

RegEx/NathanKell - do me a favor and check my math - I'm assuming 1 fund = $1000 for RF, and looking at current CRP costs (which are not outlandish in relation to others - i.e. Kerosene is only 1/4 the price of LiquidFuel), it almost looks like our costs are closer than we realized (lower in terms of 1965 dollars, a bit higher in 2015 dollars, assuming about 750% inflation).

Now let's look at KryptonGas. At 3.75g per liter, and using the most conservative pricing, we come up with $373 per gram. Which is a little bit more than the current market price of 33 cents per gram

- - - Updated - - -

NFT stuff is updated. Nertea - please confirm these as blessed and I'll update the config.

Edited March 23, 2015 by RoverDude

[regex]

I'm assuming 1 fund = $1000 for RF, and looking at current CRP costs (which are not outlandish in relation to others

I believe that is correct, but I also have sandbox player's myopia so I really just use the cost from Astronautix (or an educated guess) and use Starwaster's adjustment method. vOv

[Nertea]

Minor amendment: Boron should be STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW with PUMP. Otherwise NFT is good.

KSPI folks... some of your costs are really weird. I'm looking at the ones that I share with you specifically - LqdTritium (too high), LqdHe3 and LqdDeuterium are suspect (D2 should be cheaper by far than He3).

[Paul Kingtiger]

A little late to the party but I thought I'd chime in on the EC charge debate.

Universal storage uses 33w = 1 EC as that's what the stock solar panels are (roughly) balanced to. Based on the power per meter2 of real world panels.

I'm all for a community solution to this, and I'm happy with 1Kw = 1EC but we would also have to mod the stock assets to match, otherwise the stock solar panels will be massively OP compared to other power generation.

Given that this would involve altering existing parts (via module manager) it's probably best as a separate mod to CRP. It's also probably worth waiting for 1.0 to see how squad rebalances things.

[RoverDude]

@Paul - I agree, and also agree that it's not really in the scope of CRP, since it starts touching on a lot of areas, and we have a pretty strict 'don't screw with stock' policy.

Easier to just go with the assumption that Kerbals are really good at making solar panels and RTGs - as everyone tends to balance around them. So as long as the different techs make sense relatively, it's a wash. Otherwise you end up chasing down every solar mod out there

@Regex - curious what Starwaster's method is. Only because some of the costs look a lot closer than $1000@1965 vs $5@2015 would imply.

[regex]

@Regex - curious what Starwaster's method is. Only because some of the costs look a lot closer than $1000@1965 vs $5@2015 would imply.

He posted it earlier in the thread, IIRC. This post and the discussion following. Again, Nathan, and then I, lifted the prices straight off of Encyclopedia Astronautica back in the day.

[FreeThinker]

Minor amendment: Boron should be STAGE_PRIORITY_FLOW with PUMP. Otherwise NFT is good.

KSPI folks... some of your costs are really weird. I'm looking at the ones that I share with you specifically - LqdTritium (too high), LqdHe3 and LqdDeuterium are suspect (D2 should be cheaper by far than He3).

They are supposed to be expansive, but what are you proposing. I used 1 Fund = $1000, but I did not apply the 1965 adjustment

Edited March 24, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

See the note above RE KryptonGas - the calcs show it incredibly inflated price wise, so there may be something off in your base calculations (i.e. if anything your prices should be way too low)

[FreeThinker]

for Tritium, I use Tritium on wikipedia as a resource for the cost of Tritium which is at $30.000 per gram. The price might be inflated, because of increased demand and lower production. The stuff was mosly produced in nuclear reactors, but because many are beeing closed because of fear, the stuff is in short supply.

Edit: if you think $30.000 is expansive, your wrong. This is the cheapest price I found, other sources report $84.000 - $130.000 per gram

Edit: other sources confirm the current price S30.000 report the cost is excepected to rise $100.000 - $200.00

Tritium is used by KSPI as an early fusion fuel. Upgraded Fusion reactors can use Helium3 which is much cheaper and more efficient

Edited March 24, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

KSPI folks... some of your costs are really weird. I'm looking at the ones that I share with you specifically - LqdTritium (too high), LqdHe3 and LqdDeuterium are suspect (D2 should be cheaper by far than He3).

based on current cost, I reduced the cost of Deuterium to $475 per Liter (RF)

Edited March 24, 2015 by FreeThinker

[cantab]

Regarding Ec, the other night I tried to do some experiments with the rover wheels, accelerating a known mass craft from a standstill and seeing how much Ec it took. Overall they don't seem to make an awful lot of sense, but it did point to 1 Ec being on the order of 10 kJ.

Looking at the ion engine performance might also let you get a value for Ec. Then again perhaps both the ion engines and rover wheels should be treated as giving unrealistic performance for gameplay reasons. Unless somebody makes a mod that generates electricity when you smack into it I suppose it isn't an issue.

[FreeThinker]

Looking at the ion engine performance might also let you get a value for Ec. Then again perhaps both the ion engines and rover wheels should be treated as giving unrealistic performance for gameplay reasons. Unless somebody makes a mod that generates electricity when you smack into it I suppose it isn't an issue.

Seriously, the Ion engine Ec is probably the worst measure you can use. It is at least 3000 more powerfull than the real thing

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding liquid Helium3:

according to Wikipedia

cost at auction has typically been approximately $100/liter although increasing demand has raised prices to as much as $2,000/liter in recent years.

I reduced the cost of LqdHe3 to $2000 / liter (RF)

- - - Updated - - -

Accoding to this source, Liquid Helium cost about $13.3

Edited March 24, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

Also - expression of EC in terms of Joules does not work. It should be expressed in Joules per second, or watts.

And yeah... the ion engine is pretty much worthless for comparison. And nothing will ever tie out. hence the most common line in the sand of 1EC/Sec = 1kw = 1kJs

[Yemo]

Also - expression of EC in terms of Joules does not work. It should be expressed in Joules per second, or watts.

And yeah... the ion engine is pretty much worthless for comparison. And nothing will ever tie out. hence the most common line in the sand of 1EC/Sec = 1kw = 1kJs

Wait, now we are confusing each other.

That is the one I work with:

1EC = 1kJ

1EC/s = 1kW = 1kJ/s

edit: EC capitalized.

[RoverDude]

There should be no confusion.

But calling an EC a KJ without time context is not valuable, nor is it complete. The time context is critical. Once you have that, you can sort out everything else.

As I stated, the prevailing convention is to express ec as 1EC/Sec = 1KW. Extrapolate everything else from there. Easy Peasy.

Edited March 24, 2015 by RoverDude

[Yemo]

1EC = 1kJ

is perfectly valid/complete.

Though I agree that for most calculations, it is not as helpful as the 1EC/s = 1kW = 1kJ/s expression.

[RoverDude]

I'll state for the third and last time, because this is just silly.

The prevailing convention is to express EC as 1EC/Sec = 1KW.

(Edit)

The reason is because EC is used for TWO things in KSP... consumption, and storage (which in itself is weird without knowing voltage, etc.) hence the importance that the specific yardstick we're laying down is on the consumption side, not the storage side (which is it's own rats nest). Consumption is expressed with a time component.

(Edit 2)

So given this is not a thread about EC, and given nobody here is debating that 1EC/Sec = 1KW (and feel free to extrapolate from there) let us please get this back to the topics at hand.

Edited March 24, 2015 by RoverDude

[Nertea]

So I actually had a second today...

Had an error with my cost calculations for boron, it should be 0.851/u.

Here are the costs I came up with for the resources that I coexist with. Please note that these are not "real" costs in the sense that 1 fund = bleh number of RL dollars. They are ratio-correct to stock costs with wiki/FreeThinker's RL costs used as bases.

Lithium: 0.255/u

LqdDeuterium: 44.5/u

LqdTritium: 345100/u

LqdHe3: 345/u

I might suggest that you tone down the price of tritium for the sole reason that it's an abhorrently high value to use. Cutting it by 10 or 100 times might make it more reasonable.

[FreeThinker]

So I actually had a second today...

Had an error with my cost calculations for boron, it should be 0.851/u.

Here are the costs I came up with for the resources that I coexist with. Please note that these are not "real" costs in the sense that 1 fund = bleh number of RL dollars. They are ratio-correct to stock costs with wiki/FreeThinker's RL costs used as bases.

Lithium: 0.255/u

LqdDeuterium: 44.5/u

LqdTritium: 345100/u

LqdHe3: 345/u

I might suggest that you tone down the price of tritium for the sole reason that it's an abhorrently high value to use. Cutting it by 10 or 100 times might make it more reasonable.

I don't understand, I though you wanted me to lower the cost, your proposed cost per units seem to suggest you want to increase the cost by a factor of 100.

The current cost for LqdTritium is set to 3990/u which translate into $30000 /gram. Which is consistent with all my sources. Your propose to increase the cost to 345100/u would make the real cost $2,594,736.0 per gram. That would make it more expansive than antimatter!

The current cost for LqdHe3 is set to 2/u which translate to $2000 /Liter, which the current price mentioned on wikipedia. Your propose to increase cost of 345/u would make the real cost $345000 per liter

The current cost of LqdDeuterium is set to 0.025/u which translate to $25 which is a bit more than the current price of pure deuterium on the market. You propose to increase the cost of Deuterium to 44.5 /u which would make the real price $445000 /Liter which would be 17800 times expansive!!

Edited March 25, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

FreeThinker - toss me a config of what you have. Then I will create a preliminary beta file for all of us to start playing with, and we can sort out cost details after (sounds like the only contentions left are a couple of those with KSPI/NFT - I figure you and Nertea can sort that as they are not ones USI uses).

Good news is we're all past density discussions - which rocks, and is normally the biggest issue when we change things. And our cost discussions are pretty light (side note, FreeThinker - did not get your response RE noble gasses compared to the cost of Argon - I think you might be too high on those in comparison based on your cost formula).

[FreeThinker]

Now let's look at KryptonGas. At 3.75g per liter, and using the most conservative pricing, we come up with $373 per gram. Which is a little bit more than the current market price of 33 cents per gram

Seems a little cheap. Arcording to this source, the current market price of of KryptonGas is $6.8 / L which makes it $1.81 / gram.

- - - Updated - - -

FreeThinker - toss me a config of what you have. Then I will create a preliminary beta file for all of us to start playing with, and we can sort out cost details after (sounds like the only contentions left are a couple of those with KSPI/NFT - I figure you and Nertea can sort that as they are not ones USI uses).

Very well, I will create what I have now.