[1.x+] Community Resource Pack

[RoverDude]

Sold. tbh for both LqdNitrogen and LqdCO2 we're within spitting distance anyway, so let's stick a fork in it.

[RoverDude]

Ok. I've taken Nertea's working sheet, and uploaded it to the master CRP document at this link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F2NYLj47O6VdThCXqBcI_hB-bDIMh4ZWB2FFyrjMLkg/edit#gid=650840806

So now let's wrap things up.

First - let us please spotcheck curation and correct any mistakes in densities, phase, units per liter, etc. - please do so for the resources you curate.

Second. If there are any final comments/objections/etc. let's sort these out.

For the latter, I have two.

What is the difference between DepletedUranium and DepletedFuel? Can we consolidate or no?

What are FusionPellets? Can these be swapped to one of the other representative fusion resources? If no, see note below.

Glykerol: Normally I prefer to not add stuff in used by in-dev mods, or not in wide use (or ones tied to maps) because CRP needs to be very stable. Would prefer this be a local config for the mods in question (same way most of the MKS resources are not in here)

Once curation is sorted, I will need the curators (FreeThinker, Nertea, NathanKell or someone else from RF) to get me the appropriate resource config files so I can consolidate these.

[undercoveryankee]

What is the difference between DepletedUranium and DepletedFuel? Can we consolidate or no?

Fractal_UK's original KSPI used DepletedFuel for fission waste that can't be reprocessed, and Actinides for waste that can be reprocessed. Does KSPI-E still need to distinguish between different types of spent fuel?

[RoverDude]

Excellent question. And would be good to sync on them since USI and NFT also have waste fuel recycling.

[regex]

First - let us please spotcheck curation and correct any mistakes in densities, phase, units per liter, etc. - please do so for the resources you curate.

Methane is missing all the stats. Phase should be gas, density should be calculated from STP per my post. If someone wants something different, which I haven't seen addressed, then let's discuss that. I'd like to see it for an intermediate resource for chemical reactions and atmospheric ISRU.

Once curation is sorted, I will need the curators (FreeThinker, Nertea, NathanKell or someone else from RF) to get me the appropriate resource config files so I can consolidate these.

Real Fuels here.

[Nertea]

I'm currently on vacation, so I can't do much... But just so you all know, most of the costs in that sheet are not done or good.

[RoverDude]

No worries, I will plug in what I start getting from folks and we can do another once over. More worried about names and densities for pass 1 because those get harder to fix than costs (unless they are really out of whack).

[NathanKell]

Sorry, been offline basically since last Saturday and still a bit busy. Glad to see the various RFers here to quite accurately predict my reactions.

Northstar: I have no objection to supporting LqdCO2, that sounds fine. Regarding pressurization, I'd be shocked if non-SM tanks have higher pressures than 2atm; I know the Saturn V's S-IC LOX tank had a pressure of about 25psia (just shy of 2atm, 29.4psia).

I have no problem with consolidating on single "active fuel" and "used fuel" resources for NTRs.

I can't promise how soon I'll be able to pitch in, btw, though I will do my best and/or delegate to others if I can't.

[Northstar1989]

Ok. I've taken Nertea's working sheet, and uploaded it to the master CRP document at this link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F2NYLj47O6VdThCXqBcI_hB-bDIMh4ZWB2FFyrjMLkg/edit#gid=650840806

So now let's wrap things up.

First - let us please spotcheck curation and correct any mistakes in densities, phase, units per liter, etc. - please do so for the resources you curate.

Second. If there are any final comments/objections/etc. let's sort these out.

Sounds good to me. The following corrections still need to be made:

- LqdCO2 should be listed as used by KSP-Interstellar and RealFuels. Currently it is only listed for BioMass...

- "Alumnia" is mis-spelled. It should read "Alumina", and is an intermediate resource in electrolysis of Munar/Ike regolith in KSP-Interstellar.

- The density of Liquid Methane is too low. At 1 atmosphere and -161.68 C (its boiling point is a little less than -161.5 C), the highest temperature for which the Peace Software Thermodynamics Calculator I've been using will give me a liquid-phase density, the density is already 424.0175 kg/m³, not the 422.62 kg/m³ which is currently used. However it would likely be stored at a colder temperature to increase its density. At -180 C (still warmer than Liquid Oxygen's boiling point of -183 C) liquid methane has a density of 448.25 kg/m³. Since one major use for Methane is to burn it with LOX, it's quite likely that you would want to store it as a similar temperature to increase its density and minimize heat-leakage from the methane tanks into nearby LOX tanks...

- What temperature is the density of LOX supposed to be based on? According to the Peace Software Thermodynamics Calculator at a pressure of 25 psia (approximately 1.7 atm, and the density NathanKell said the Saturn V LOX tanks were at) and a temperature of -198.4 C you get a density of 1141.75 kg/m³, which is close enough for comfort to the density of 1141.00 kg/m³ currently being used. However at 1 atm and -196 C the density is only 979.25 kg/m³, and a 1 atm and -200 C the density is 1223.00 kg/m³. The density of LOX is highly sensitive to even a few degrees of temperature-increase, so the current density of 1141.00 kg/m³ for LOX might be a little optimistic...

- The current density of LqdAmmonia in the working document is far too low. What's more, I don't even know where it comes from. The density in the release of CRP included in the latest KSP-Interstellar 0.90 port is 681 kg/m³, but the density included in the current working-document is 604.00 kg/m³. Neither density is high enough. The ambient temperature of LEO is around -40 C, and deep space is -80 C or less (the freezing point of ammonia is -77.73 C, so in deep space you actually face the amusing problem of needing to heat the ammonia to keep it liquid, or thaw it before use...) so you're clearly not going to be storing it any warmer than -40 C. At -40 C and 1 atm the density is 690.2 kg/m³ according to the Peace Software Thermodynamics Calculator, and at -50 C and 1 atm (the lowest temperature the calculator will go for Ammonia, but probably still warmer than you'd want to be storing it) the density is 702.1 kg/m³. Even at -34 C and 1 atm, just below its boiling-point, Ammonia has a density of 682.78 kg/m³, which is higher than either the old or new density for it in CRP...

NOTE: I provide multiple links to the Peace Software Thermodynamics Calculator because it has different pages for different molecules. Here is the english-language home page from which you can access the different molecule calculators (note that there are some typos in the spellings, such as of Oxygen, as the software was originally written in German- which I do know how to read- but the calculations yield numbers, which will be the same regardless of the language used...)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited March 11, 2015 by Northstar1989

[regex]

At -180 C (still warmer than Liquid Oxygen's boiling point of -183 C) liquid methane has a density of 448.25 kg/m³. Since one major use for Methane is to burn it with LOX, it's quite likely that you would want to store it as a similar temperature to increase its density and minimize heat-leakage from the methane tanks into nearby LOX tanks...

Makes sense, this should change. It might have been at the lighter density due to expected use as an NTR propellant, but considering ~Space X~ we should probably adjust.

On behalf of Real Fuels, I suggest we change the density of LqdMethane to 448.25 kg/m³.

The density of LOX is highly sensitive to even a few degrees of temperature-increase, so the current density of 1141.00 kg/m³ for LOX might be a little optimistic...

Given those figures we could choose any arbitrary value between 979.25 and 1223.00, <slight, gentle sarcasm>so let's just pick 1000.00</slight, gentle sarcasm>. Since KSP doesn't model density based on temperature variance I feel that, while the value may be optimistic, it works well enough considering the variance.

On behalf of Real Fuels, I suggest LdqOxygen stick with 1141.75 kg/m³, or round off to 1141.00 kg/m³, whichever is more agreeable.

- The current density of LqdAmmonia in the working document is far too low. What's more, I don't even know where it comes from.

The data probably came from Encyclopedia Astronautica when these realism mods were literally being cranked out, so please excuse any bad data. This is the time to change them.

at -50 C and 1 atm (the lowest temperature the calculator will go for Ammonia, but probably still warmer than you'd want to be storing it) the density is 702.1 kg/m³.

This is a nice round number, let's use it.

On behalf of Real Fuels, I suggest we adopt 702.1 kg/m³ as the density of LqdAmmonia.

Thank you for the suggestions, Northstar1989, that was very helpful.

Edited March 11, 2015 by regex

[Northstar1989]

Thank you for the suggestions, Northstar1989, that was very helpful.

I'm glad you liked them.

Regards,

Northstar

[RoverDude]

RegEx - send me your email via PM and I'll give you rights to edit the RF portion of the doc. Also make sure I have an adjusted config that reflects all of your changes. please.

FreeThinker - can you please weigh in on the DepletedFuel/DepletedUranium/Actinides discussion. Given everyone else is fine with a single representation of useable and expended nuclear fuel (and the main relevance here is compatible storage, centrifuges, recyclers, etc. so it is kinda important) I'd like to bring this to consensus.

[RoverDude]

Talked to Taniwha and he's on board with moving to 1L units.

So. Any aversion by anyone here in moving everything to 1L (with antimatter being 1ml for technical reasons)?

I for one have no prob with it as I have to change everything up anyway

[regex]

RegEx - send me your email via PM and I'll give you rights to edit the RF portion of the doc. Also make sure I have an adjusted config that reflects all of your changes. please.

Done and will do.

[FreeThinker]

- - - Updated - - -

FreeThinker - can you please weigh in on the DepletedFuel/DepletedUranium/Actinides discussion. Given everyone else is fine with a single representation of useable and expended nuclear fuel (and the main relevance here is compatible storage, centrifuges, recyclers, etc. so it is kinda important) I'd like to bring this to consensus.

Actinides could be consolidated with DepletedUranium, but but only as abstract waste product for both Thorium as Uranium. It's name should therefore be neutral and apply to any nuclear re processable nuclear fuel. Actinides is short, clear and applies to all re processable nuclear fuels. Actinides should therefore replace DepletedUranium as the abstract re processable waste product of other Reactors outside of KSPI.

DepletedFuel is the resource that is the waste product of Actinides reprocessing, which is a abstract resource which cannot be consolidated with DepletedUranium. it's also the waste product of UraniumNitride Pebble bed /Dusty Plasma reactor.

Regarding consolidation of Nuclear Fuels:

On the other hand, I think I can replace the KSPI UraniumFloride with any generic UraniumFuel resource, as the are essentially the same.

Edited March 12, 2015 by FreeThinker

[billkerbinsky]

(with antimatter being 1ml for technical reasons)?

Just say antimatter requires so much packaging/shielding/monitoring/etc., that you always need to move 1L of "stuff" to move 1ml of actual antimatter around between tanks and engines.

[RoverDude]

tbh I'm ok with the distinction because it's still a manageable unit and consistent with the rest.

[regex]

Okay, I updated the mass of RF fuels to have the better values we want. Note that LqdNitrogen is purely a KSPI resource, so they might want to look into that; I didn't change the density. I might make a pass on costs later tonight but I'm not sure what the baseline for them should be (LiquidFuel?)... I have costs (or assumptions) for all RF fuels but they're 1960-era prices and I'm not sure what everyone else is assuming here.

If any RF people read this, I'll update the RF thread later tonight with the changes, a few of the more common fuels were adjusted for accuracy but otherwise it was just the experimentals and toxics.

[Raptor831]

Okay, I updated the mass of RF fuels to have the better values we want. Note that LqdNitrogen is purely a KSPI resource, so they might want to look into that; I didn't change the density. I might make a pass on costs later tonight but I'm not sure what the baseline for them should be (LiquidFuel?)... I have costs (or assumptions) for all RF fuels but they're 1960-era prices and I'm not sure what everyone else is assuming here.

If any RF people read this, I'll update the RF thread later tonight with the changes, a few of the more common fuels were adjusted for accuracy but otherwise it was just the experimentals and toxics.

For costs, I'd make a tank of kerolox cost the same as a tank LF/O. Scale everything else to that. That's essentially what I did when doing the engine costs for the Stockalike engine configs.

[RoverDude]

- - - Updated - - -

Actinides could be consolidated with DepletedUranium, but but only as abstract waste product for both Thorium as Uranium. It's name should therefore be neutral and apply to any nuclear re processable nuclear fuel. Actinides is short, clear and applies to all re processable nuclear fuels. Actinides should therefore replace DepletedUranium as the abstract re processable waste product of other Reactors outside of KSPI.

DepletedFuel is the resource that is the waste product of Actinides reprocessing, which is a abstract resource which cannot be consolidated with DepletedUranium. it's also the waste product of UraniumNitride Pebble bed /Dusty Plasma reactor.

Regarding consolidation of Nuclear Fuels:

On the other hand, I think I can replace the KSPI UraniumFloride with any generic UraniumFuel resource, as the are essentially the same.

What is DepletedFuel used for in KSPI? Also, I assume by UraniumFloride you mean UF4?

[FreeThinker]

What is DepletedFuel used for in KSPI? Also, I assume by UraniumFloride you mean UF4?

- DepletedFuel = NuclearWaste which cannot be reprocesed anymore

- UraniumFloride = UF4 = EnrighedUranium = Generic Uranium Fuel you can use in nuclear reactors to produce heat

Edited March 13, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Northstar1989]

Hi RoverDude,

Without de-railing the conversation too much, a quick pull- I was wondering if I could recruit you to produce some resource-conversion reactions for ISRU with KSP-Interstellar Extended and Regolith?

I've been thinking about the best way to implement some of these reactions- and after seeing first-hand what a headache ORS code for ISRU can be (even if it can do some rather cool stuff, it's mind-numbingly complicated) I was thinking Regolith might actually be the best direction to turn to for some of these new ISRU reactions- especially as they will be purely resource-to-resource conversions (rather than extraction reactions) and thus shouldn't need to interact directly with any of the ORS-based ISRU code already in KSP-Interstellar...

Specifically, the reactions are to produce RealFuels propellants out of certain resources that can easily be harvested with KSP-Interstellar equipment. These are:

MMH, UDMH, and Aerozine- from Hydrazine and Methane (a production-reaction for Monopropellant already exists in KSP-Interstellar that is based on Hydrazine chemistry). These are useful hypergolic fuels when combusted with NTO (N₂O₄) in hypergolic rocket-engines in RealFuels. MMH is just Hydrazine plus one methyl-group (CH₃- so you will end up producing some H₂ as a by-product), and UDMH Hydrazine plus two methyl-groups. Aerozine is typically either a 50/50 or 25/75 mixture of MMH and UDMH, respectively.

Kerosene- from Carbon Dioxide and Hydrogen (Carbon Monoxide is an inferred intermediate for the Fischer-Tropsch Process, but not one we have a resource for yet- speaking of which, could we get that in CRP? I'm planning on adding a CO/O₂ chemical rocket to KSP-Interstellar Extended just as soon as I can find the time to write up a config for it and find a model- to allow players to simulate certain real mission plans that would operate such a rocket on Mars to hop around on rough terrain using locally-derived CO and O₂ for propellant...)

NTO (N₂O₄) - from Nitrogen and Oxygen obtained via ISRU. Is a useful oxidizer with MMH/UDMH/Aerozine for hypergolic rockets in RealFuels...

I wasn't planning to bother with actually creating resources for the catalysts or co-reagents for any of these reactions: as long as something isn't consumed by the reaction we can just assume it to be part of the KSP-Interstellar ISRU Refinery part where I would want all these reactions to take place (although if necessary I suppose they could also take place in a Karbonite-derived converter part). All of these reactions are physically possible, and in the case of Kerosene production we already have a reaction (the Fischer-Tropsch Process) that has received significant investigation recently for its potential ISRU applications on Mars...

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. PM me if you're interested and don't want to discuss this in public. And I'm sorry I offended you before with your treatment on Regolith- I didn't give it due credit when I was discussing it before, and I apologize for that.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Northstar1989

[RoverDude]

- DepletedFuel = NuclearWaste which cannot be reprocesed anymore

- UraniumFloride = UF4 = EnrighedUranium = Generic Uranium Fuel you can use in nuclear reactors to produce heat

Got it. Let me get Nertea back to weigh in on the trio (Actinides, DepletedUranium, DepletedFuel) since NFT and USI use a two resource system (fuel and potentially reprocessable but waste is discarded) vs. KSPI which uses a three resource process and I'll pretty much follow his lead. We may also table this for a bit given how close we are to ratification.

PM me your email and I'll give you write access to the KSPI section of the CRP doc so you can adjust as needed, now that the Regex has updated RealFuels. I'll do the CRP and USI ones, and then once Nertea is back he can do the ones for NFT and we can stick a fork in this version.

Lastly - let me know which resources you want to mark as harvestable, and please include crustal, oceanic, atmospheric, and exospheric. Also note any biome or planetary restrictions. My preference generally is to have some low-percentage global stuff with the occasional biome or planet override (like ice caps on Duna, Vall's surface, the Mun, etc.) this way we are compatible with new biomes and new planet packs.

- - - Updated - - -

@Northstar - no worries.

Also - if you're just doing resource to resource stuff, that's pretty much an out of the box Regolith converter, and you can use the Karbonite ones as examples. Given densities are now consistent across RF/KSPI/USI/NFT, quantities should be fine and you would not need a custom converter. You can ping for any specific questions in the regolith thread.

[FreeThinker]

Got it. Let me get Nertea back to weigh in on the trio (Actinides, DepletedUranium, DepletedFuel) since NFT and USI use a two resource system (fuel and potentially reprocessable but waste is discarded) vs. KSPI which uses a three resource process and I'll pretty much follow his lead. We may also table this for a bit given how close we are to ratification.

The exact weigt does not real matter, but they should all have about the same weight (including NuclearFuel), and they should be very heavy.

[RoverDude]

Now if only I can get Google Docs to come up