[1.1.2] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) 0.5.8

[Ironitaly]

It's called "Docking tube" I found it on ckan.

[Stoney3K]

Are the winches on KAS supposed to be super strong?

I used a set of winches with a grappling hook on top of my miner to anchor it from the surface (and prevent it from falling over). Ejecting the winches so they attach the miner to the surface works fine, but when I retract the winch cable, the winch is a bit... strong.

My whole miner disappeared into a pile of explosions and parts in the following seconds as the winches on top try to pull it straight THROUGH the ground with immense force. I doubt this is supposed to happen.

[Vorg]

Kerbals use nitroglycerin in most of their manufacturing. Gives more bang per buck, but leaves the stuff they make a bit unstable....

[AengorKerbow]

So I installed KAS for the first time yesterday. I remember seeing a Scott Manley video where he used the KAS mod to attach struts via EVA, and to attach other parts as well. It has been a while, but I remember there was some container that your stored the parts in, and then would go to the container during EVA, pull out the parts, and attach them. I can't figure out how this was done, or if there is some other mod that does this. I can't find any container part to store parts in, and I'm not sure how to get the parts to attach them during EVA.

What am I missing?

[goldenpsp]

So I installed KAS for the first time yesterday. I remember seeing a Scott Manley video where he used the KAS mod to attach struts via EVA, and to attach other parts as well. It has been a while, but I remember there was some container that your stored the parts in, and then would go to the container during EVA, pull out the parts, and attach them. I can't figure out how this was done, or if there is some other mod that does this. I can't find any container part to store parts in, and I'm not sure how to get the parts to attach them during EVA.

What am I missing?

You are missing KIS. It is outlined in the first Post.

[ExplorerKlatt]

That video probably showed the old version of KAS. Now you need to install Kerbal Inventory System. There is a link to it on the first page. Please read the user guide that comes with it also

[hab136]

The "Link" and "Unlink" ranges for pipes are currently hard-coded as 2 m:

unfocusedRange = 2f

https://github.com/KospY/KAS/blob/c3379dc578af88e740671d46061fa12366c2194f/Plugins/Source/KASModuleStrut.cs#L592

https://github.com/KospY/KAS/blob/c3379dc578af88e740671d46061fa12366c2194f/Plugins/Source/KASModuleStrut.cs#L616

It would be nice if KAS could make the range configurable via settings.cfg, like you've already done for KIS:

Events["ShowInventory"].unfocusedRange = mPickup.maxDistance;

https://github.com/KospY/KIS/blob/master/Plugins/Source/ModuleKISInventory.cs#L500

I don't think this is possible to change via ModuleManager; if it is then I can just use that.

[TheCardinal]

KAs and KIS are both incredibly useful for the creation of bases and such. However, i feel one part is still missing. I'll explain the why and how of that part.

Due to the limitation on mass, a Kerbal can't connect (very) large parts to, for example, a spacestation. If the user wants to add a large fuel tank to the station, he has to connect the fueltank with the help of two dockingports. What i propose is sort of a weldingport. It functions like a docking port but vanishes permanently when docked with another weldingport thereby making a connection as if two nodes were joined in the VAB. In the example of the fueltank, the station has a weldingport and the fueltank has a weldingport. They dock with each other. Both weldingports disappear and the fuel tank is connected to the station at the exact location of the welding port on the station. (Thereby increasing the total number of parts by one instead of three and creating a stronger bond). As this functions comparably to the attach function in KIS, i believe it's possible to create such a part. The question is if you agree that such a part would by useful.

Edited September 1, 2015 by TheCardinal

[Felbourn]

KAs and KIS are both incredibly useful for the creation of bases and such. However, i feel one part is still missing. I'll explain the why and how of that part.

Due to the limitation on mass, a Kerbal can't connect (very) large parts to, for example, a spacestation. If the user wants to add a large fuel tank to the station, he has to connect the fueltank with the help of two dockingports. What i propose is sort of a weldingport. It functions like a docking port but vanishes permanently when docked with another weldingport thereby making a connection as if two nodes were joined in the VAB. In the example of the fueltank, the station has a weldingport and the fueltank has a weldingport. They dock with each other. Both weldingports disappear and the fuel tank is connected to the station at the exact location of the welding port on the station. (Thereby increasing the total number of parts by one instead of three and creating a stronger bond). As this functions comparably to the attach function in KIS, i believe it's possible to create such a part. The question is if you agree that such a part would by useful.

This would be very useful. I have done this by hand before, but it's easy to break your saved game doing this by hand. I should have automated it. Better yet, a part that did it automatically would be even better! I love this idea. One additional benefit is there's a huge difference in performance between two ships docked and one ship with the number of overall parts. This is why I did what I did in the first place.

[Gryphon]

I was under the impression that you could maneuver and attach large parts by having multiple Kerbals assist in the operation. Is that correct?

(I haven't gotten far enough in my career mode save to test this myself.)

[Tarheel1999]

Yes.

5 chars

[TheCardinal]

I was under the impression that you could maneuver and attach large parts by having multiple Kerbals assist in the operation. Is that correct?

(I haven't gotten far enough in my career mode save to test this myself.)

I know that's possible however you need lots of kerbals to attach a heavy kerbal. Hardly practical when working in space. I believe a kerbal has a limit of 1 ton max. For a fueltank weighing 36 tons you'll probably need 36 which is a ludicrous number. (or have i completely misunderstood the limits?)

[EdusacconBR]

when a gigantor solar panel is broken, kerbals cant grab it

[Tarheel1999]

I know that's possible however you need lots of kerbals to attach a heavy kerbal. Hardly practical when working in space. I believe a kerbal has a limit of 1 ton max. For a fueltank weighing 36 tons you'll probably need 36 which is a ludicrous number. (or have i completely misunderstood the limits?)

That is correct. So I'd recommend against attaching full fuel tanks. Empty ones are much easier.

[TheCardinal]

Your recommendation has been noted. The fueltank was only used as an example. Now please recommend how to attach parts with an empty weight of over 20 tons without having to resort to using 20 kerbals (or more).

[SciMan]

Just what exactly are you trying to move that's 20 tons DRY weight? A reactor? Particularly huge fuel tank? Something else?

Either way, I think the whole "mass limit per kerbal in proximity" mechanic is a bit simplistic for the limitations it's trying to convey.

It should have gravity as a factor, because it's possible to move larger masses with the same force in lower gravity, and muscles don't instantly get weaker just because of being in a lower gravity field.

Following from this, in orbit there should be no weight restriction. Even the tiniest of forces can move the largest of objects if there is no other force providing resistance or friction, so it makes sense (ex. Hubble servicing missions, Canadarm {rated for ~300kg load} was used to move Hubble {11,110kg} into the payload bay).

For the time being, have you tried doing this next to a bunch of Kerbals that are all sitting in command chairs of one vessel? The command chairs keep the Kerbals from drifting away, while potentially still allowing them to be counted as "on EVA" for the purposes of the maximum mass calculation.

If that doesn't work, have you considered the Extraplanetary Launchpads mod? It can do orbital assembly as well as surface assembly, so you could send the huge heavy thing up as parts and spawn it fully constructed in space. That usually works out better for really heavy things (and 20t for a single part certainly qualifies for that!).

[Felbourn]

I had many modules when I did Project Gateway that were on the order of 20 tons give or take. "Welding" a module to the rest of the station was the only way to get performance back. Having a "docking port" that could do that for me would have been amazing. That said, it's possible I could implement a plugin that converts 'docking ports that dock' into docking ports that don't, and just apply this functionality to ANY docking port. It would not reduce the part count like Cardinal is trying to get, but it would improve performance, and this means it may not need to be a feature of KAS. It could be a generic separate plugin.

[ExplorerKlatt]

@SciMan

The first time the Hubble telescope was captured by the Canadarm, the arm had been upgraded to handle nearly 3300 kg.

It is immensely impractical for a single person to move a heavy load in space, since objects in orbit retain their mass and inertia, an astronaut must exert ten times as much force to accelerate a 10‑ton satellite at the same rate as one with a mass of only 1 ton.

[Tarheel1999]

Your recommendation has been noted. The fueltank was only used as an example. Now please recommend how to attach parts with an empty weight of over 20 tons without having to resort to using 20 kerbals (or more).

Edit the settings file to create superkerman kerbals? The mass limit per kerbal is exposed in the settings and documented on the wiki.

[Neowulf]

Could solve the issue with a little bit of extra logic.

If a magnet is attached to or near the part it adds to the mass limit.

Landed, divide the mass of the magnet's vessel by the gravity of the body and add 1/3rd that to the mass limit of the kerbal.

In orbit, same as landed but count the gravity as 0.01G and add the full amount to the limit.

Yes the system could be gamed, but it would be much cooler to build construction tugs and cranes

[SciMan]

@SciMan

The first time the Hubble telescope was captured by the Canadarm, the arm had been upgraded to handle nearly 3300 kg.

It is immensely impractical for a single person to move a heavy load in space, since objects in orbit retain their mass and inertia, an astronaut must exert ten times as much force to accelerate a 10‑ton satellite at the same rate as one with a mass of only 1 ton.

Even upgraded, the arm was still moving something much heavier than it was rated for, and did it successfully.

Regarding the astronaut, any tiny nudge will send a satellite and astronaut drifting apart. The magnitude of the force behind that "nudge" isn't important.

The fact is that there is no minimum force two objects must exert against each other in to change their relative velocities.

No matter how tiny the force or how large the mass, it'll move. Maybe not usefully, but IT WILL MOVE.

It doesn't matter how long it would take a kerbal to move something. If they can move it, they can move it, no matter how awkward or unwieldy it would be to actually attempt moving the thing in question. In orbit they can move anything no matter how large or heavy, so the weight limit makes NO SENSE in orbit. Even considering inertia.

The ridiculousness of an arbitrary mass limit for a single Kerbal to move in orbit becomes apparent when you try to move a 1.000 t object with one kerbal, followed by trying to move a 1.001 t object with one kerbal.

That SINGLE KILOGRAM makes the difference between "OK Boss" and "WHY WON'T THIS THING MOVE!"

Realistic? No. Logical, Reasonable, Plausible? No, no, and no.

Fun killing? YES, VERY MUCH SO.

If you couldn't tell, this annoys me quite a bit.

The idea with the magnets is cool. I like that idea. Perhaps require the magnet to be connected to the part being moved, as well as a winch?

I think that would work, and it would get rid of a few of the ways of gaming the system. A second magnet and winch on the same vessel, also attached to the same part, could add half the bonus the first one did, a third one would add 1/4 the first bonus, and further ones would add no extra bonuses. The reason to limit the maximum bonus to 3 winch+magnet combos is that once you have three lines on anything in a gravity field you can manipulate it with the winches to some extent in all six degrees of freedom, meaning that adding more winches is pointless. Same reason the technically ideal amount of legs for a table or chair is exactly 3.

Edited September 2, 2015 by SciMan

[TheCardinal]

Just what exactly are you trying to move that's 20 tons DRY weight? A reactor? Particularly huge fuel tank? Something else?

......

Several parts of the Civilian Population mod have a dry weight of around or even over 20 tons.

There are several reasons why a 'weldingport' would be usefull. The most obvious is the partcount. The more parts the slower KSP gets.

Another reason is accuracy. There is no way to place a part exactly at the desired place which will cause stabilityproblems. In real life this is done by including special fittings or connectionpoints to the structure. Docking ports give the required accuracy but at the cost of increasing the partcount.

The proposed part doesn't make tugs or robotarms obsolete, it just makes it easier to connect parts to a structure without getting an unreasonable number of dockingports used as a constructionpoints.

I have considered using Extraplanetary Launchpads and even Hyperedit. Surely, it can be done with those but it doesn't feel the same. It would be very deprimental to the immersion in the game.

I have also considered removing the limits on the mass a Kerbal can handle but then the accuracy would be an issue again. The same applies to using magnetic connections.

Building large stations and bases really IS rocket science *sigh *.

[damerell]

Regarding the astronaut, any tiny nudge will send a satellite and astronaut drifting apart. The magnitude of the force behind that "nudge" isn't important.

The fact is that there is no minimum force two objects must exert against each other in to change their relative velocities.

No matter how tiny the force or how large the mass, it'll move. Maybe not usefully, but IT WILL MOVE.

I do wonder who you imagine can possibly be reading that on this forum and not know it already.

It doesn't matter how long it would take a kerbal to move something. If they can move it, they can move it, no matter how awkward or unwieldy it would be to actually attempt moving the thing in question. In orbit they can move anything no matter how large or heavy, so the weight limit makes NO SENSE in orbit. Even considering inertia.

I wouldn't say it makes no sense. An object could easily be too heavy to move in a controlled fashion. If I can get it moving at a perceptible speed, it already would have too much momentum to stop it crunching disastrously into whatever it is approaching, or killing you if you become stuck between it and anything else. Worse yet would be objects with non-obvious mobile internal structure.

[hab136]

There is no way to place a part exactly at the desired place which will cause stabilityproblems.

Yes there is - use node attach, not surface attach. Pre-attach radial attachment nodes in the editor if you need exact radial attachment. To switch between node and surface attach (and to select which node to attach), press "r" once you're holding the object. You'll need the electric screwdriver, since the wrench only does surface attachment.

I have also considered removing the limits on the mass a Kerbal can handle but then the accuracy would be an issue again.

You could lower the distance and up the mass, so like 50 tons and 5 m, that way KIS attachment would be like welding, not moving. Use a small tug ship or a Kanadarm to get the part in place, then node-attach via KIS.

I personally bumped up the mass limit to 100 tons and the distance to 100 m. I'm awesome at EVA so it wasn't challenging to move the parts around or dump a million Kerbals into one spot - just really, really annoying, especially since they keep moving off of ladders.

[Tarheel1999]

Are you able to attach parts with children now? I thought you could only separate parts with children.