[WIP] .25 - PaladinLabs Dev Thread - DeepFreeze cryonic crew storage - v.14

[JPLRepo]

So, the Fuel Reprocessor from NFE will not operate (actively reprocess nuclear fuel) unless it is under a temp of 400. Obviously, a Cryofreezer needs to be below at least the melting point of Glykerol, or you cannot keep a Kerbal frozen. I just think it would be neat to have to actively cool the Cryofreezer, or Kerbals would be force-thawed. Or at the least, require the temp to be met in order to initially freeze them.

Ok, I get where you are coming from. Final question is: how do we regulate said temperature with any kind of consistency? What parts can we use for that? Oh - I have an idea or two, but looking for other ideas on that one as well.

[Morashtak]

A red light next to the hatch would nice little touch for when a live Kerbal is "in the chair". Due to a bad click Bob shoved Bill into a locker and disappeared him (said something about "stealing his snacks").

A clear, visual clue to remind us to either freeze or transfer before unfreezing up or transferring in another.

Otherwise a hearty well done. Will come in very handy for the trip to Plock.

btw, didn't see it so might have missed it - Any chance that this will be the "Large" size and we'll see a standard (four to six) as well as two- or three- person freezer?

[JPLRepo]

A red light next to the hatch would nice little touch for when a live Kerbal is "in the chair". Due to a bad click Bob shoved Bill into a locker and disappeared him (said something about "stealing his snacks").

A clear, visual clue to remind us to either freeze or transfer before unfreezing up or transferring in another.

Otherwise a hearty well done. Will come in very handy for the trip to Plock.

btw, didn't see it so might have missed it - Any chance that this will be the "Large" size and we'll see a standard (four to six) as well as two- or three- person freezer?

Are you using my forked (latest) 0.14.3 version? because I thought I fixed the crew xfer pushing each other into lockers. This behavior just has to stop!

I know there is an issue with Xfers using Shim Manifest if you have realism mode on in that mod.. but I thought I had fixed the other bugs.

As stated a few posts back, I'm not planning on doing much more with my fork of this mod just yet until we establish the whereabouts of the original author, if he plans to keep developing this, or if he wants to hand over the reigns.

[MerlinsMaster]

Thanks so much for doing this, JPLRepo! It would have been a huge bummer if there was no hybernation mod out there anywhere.

[JPLRepo]

Very nice!! Think will keep EC charge required off since that time warp bug is still in the game for solar panels It's a very useful mod for long missions and your efforts to keep it going at much appreciated.

Good point. I forgot. I could do what I do in my KabinKraziness mod and shut down the EC usage when timewarp is over 5x (EC usage seems to work up to 4x).

So taking the list angel-125 posted, where are we at?:

- management window that is standard toolbar and blizzy toolbar compatible - Done.

- thaw all kerbals - Can be done - but tricky - you need 3000EC stored on the vessel per kerbal.. otherwise it is going to stop thawing at some point.

- freeze all kerbals - Cane be done - but same issue as previous point.

- KAS container with Glykerol, fits standard mounting rack - could be done... I'm thinking what about KIS/KAS now.. is this still what is wanted?

- small KAS grabbable Glykerol processing unit - KAS or KIS? probably both. Need more info on how this unit functions - inputs and outputs parameters anyone?

- check resource requirements before freezing - it does already.

- ongoing freeze requirements - done. but as per previous post, timewarp stock bug with EC and solar panels isn't going away. Perhaps I can turn it off when timewarp is high (I know this works, but cuts back on the realism).

- 6-person hitchhiker-sized kryopod - Is support, just needs the models..

- IVAs - Hmm more models.

anyone putting their hand up to do the modelling for the containers, smaller cryopod and IVAs?

Also, Crew Xfers - needs to be fixed properly and work more friendly with Ship Manifest mod. - My main focus right now.

New request from curiousepic to have a operating temperature range. - What do people think?

Thoughts on the above?

Edited May 25, 2015 by JPLRepo

[MerlinsMaster]

anyone putting their hand up to do the modelling for the containers, smaller cryopod and IVAs?

Ooh! Me, please!

I'm an experienced 3D modeller, but I've never created an asset for a mod before, so please let me know the following things:

what format do you want for the meshes?

what format do you want for texture maps, and what resolution?

is there a polygon count you want me to stay under?

I'm sure more questions will come to me.

So, if I understand correctly, there will be 2 IVAs, the large one and the hitchhiker sized one. And the smaller cryopod, is that going to be an individual one?

If you have no objections, I really like the IVA design that Paladin created, so I would like to just base my design off of that one. As for the hitchhiker, I would do something a little different, but still consistent with the large design.

[JPLRepo]

Ooh! Me, please!

I'm an experienced 3D modeller, but I've never created an asset for a mod before, so please let me know the following things:

what format do you want for the meshes?

what format do you want for texture maps, and what resolution?

is there a polygon count you want me to stay under?

I'm sure more questions will come to me.

So, if I understand correctly, there will be 2 IVAs, the large one and the hitchhiker sized one. And the smaller cryopod, is that going to be an individual one?

If you have no objections, I really like the IVA design that Paladin created, so I would like to just base my design off of that one. As for the hitchhiker, I would do something a little different, but still consistent with the large design.

Excellent, feel free to PM me with progress etc.

We need a Model for a hitchhiker sized freezer (4-6 kerbals)

We need IVAs for the existing large freezer (10 kerbals), IVA for new hitchhiker size freezer (4-6 kerbals).

If you manage to do all that, well, I guess we can look at a single kerbal freezer and IVA?? Perhaps 1st off the rank would be an IVA for the existing part?

I would suggest using Scottpalladin's blueprints, because we still don't know if he is just busy and intends to come back to his mod or not.

Follow the general principles for KSP/Unity:

Some useful links:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/94638-Mod-Development-Links-Compilation-START-HERE (lots in this thread, it covers everything, modelling, modding, coding, etc, But lots of modelling links and info).

Some more specific modelling threads, and in reference to your questions above, follow the guidelines in this post:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/25040-Unity-to-KSP-A-Detailed-Tutorial

This is the modelling and texturing forum:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/forums/14-Modelling-and-Texturing-Discussion

[curiousepic]

Ok, I get where you are coming from. Final question is: how do we regulate said temperature with any kind of consistency? What parts can we use for that? Oh - I have an idea or two, but looking for other ideas on that one as well.

So the obvious choice is radiators. Squad made the reverse side of solar panels act as a (weak) radiator until (I can only presume) they add dedicated parts. But there are a number of mods that add decently efficient radiators, including angel-125's own DSEV, Heat Management, and most prominently, Nertea's NFE and standalone Heat Control (which also has awesome heat pipes and insulators), which will be considered complete for 1.0.2 imminently but experimental versions are currently available in the dev thread.

It's possible that Heat Control's heat pipes or radiators have a part module that could be used within the cryofreezer itself to act as a "heat pump" that would actively conduct its heat to connected parts.

- KAS container with Glykerol, fits standard mounting rack - could be done... I'm thinking what about KIS/KAS now.. is this still what is wanted?

- small KAS grabbable Glykerol processing unit - KAS or KIS? probably both. Need more info on how this unit functions - inputs and outputs parameters anyone?

I don't think it needs to fit a mounting rack; a normal radial tank would be suitable. It would be great to have it resemble a goo canister though

- ongoing freeze requirements - done. but as per previous post, timewarp stock bug with EC and solar panels isn't going away. Perhaps I can turn it off when timewarp is high (I know this works, but cuts back on the realism).

Temperatures and the temp fluxes do seem to operate properly during time warps, so we might be able to enforce a max temp requirement, if not a constant EC requirement.

New request from curiousepic to have a operating temperature range. - What do people think?

Wiki sez: "Long-term cryopreservation can be achieved by cooling to near 77.15 Kelvin (approximately -196.01°C), the boiling point of liquid nitrogen." AFAIK in-game temp units are in Kelvin. However, I think it would be sufficient to require 400 or 300, though, and assume that the Cryofreezer maintains the required temp within the cryostats themselves. I have not played with it in 1.0.2 yet, but DRE actually splits out the temp of a single part into surface temp and interior temp, in which case we might want to make the internal temp required be ~77.

As mentioned earlier, the Nuclear Fuel Reprocessor part from NFE makes a good representative for this behavior, I encourage you to grab the experimental build and play around with it. It was posted here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/51395-WIP-Nert-s-Models-Current-NFElectrical-HeatControl-testing?p=1957155&viewfull=1#post1957155 (NFE includes Heat Control)

Edited May 27, 2015 by curiousepic

[Papa_Joe]

...

Also, Crew Xfers - needs to be fixed properly and work more friendly with Ship Manifest mod. - My main focus right now.

...

New request from curiousepic to have a operating temperature range. - What do people think?

Thoughts on the above?

I've built an interface to SM for JPLRepo (and anyone else that might need/want it) and the code is in his hands for integration/test/revision. We may go back and forth a few times to "get it right", but I expect we will have compatibility soon.

[JPLRepo]

I've built an interface to SM for JPLRepo (and anyone else that might need/want it) and the code is in his hands for integration/test/revision. We may go back and forth a few times to "get it right", but I expect we will have compatibility soon.

Thanks to Papa_Joe for providing an interface to ship manifest. I've started testing the two mods and it's all going well. However, I have noticed a massive bug in v0.14.3 that I put out the other day, if you recover a vessel with frozen kerbals in it they will be lost. I will fix this with the other crew Xfer fixes when testing is completed. Until then, I suggest you thaw all kerbals before you recover any vessels.

Also, MerlinsMaster is working on some IVAs and smaller freezer models, etc. his prototypes and work so far look great. So looking forward to incorporating those into new parts ina future release.

but first I want to get this patched up mod stable and that means fixing the crew transfers, and the crewsize in the freezer.

[Papa_Joe]

As part of your next release, I suggest you include a module manager config for CLS support. I've provided an example based on the existing cryofreezer part below:

@PART[cryofreezer]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true
    }
}

I'm currently using this in my installation.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Papa_Joe

[JPLRepo]

As part of your next release, I suggest you include a module manager config for CLS support. I've provided an example based on the existing cryofreezer part below:

@PART[cryofreezer]:HAS[!MODULE[ModuleConnectedLivingSpace]] 
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleConnectedLivingSpace
        passable = true
    }
}

I'm currently using this in my installation.

All ready to go in the next version. Thanks!

For every one else still workin on lots of fixes including compatibility with Papa_Joe's fabulous Ship Manifest, CLS, and WIP Roster Manager. See his sig in previous post.

[kklusmeier]

I am trying to get this to work with TAC LS, but it appears that the resources are used retroactively when you unfreeze a kerbal.

I think this might be an effect of the Background Processing mod coupled with the new 'unowned' status on kerbals, rather than the old 'dead' status.

That being said, I don't know much about mods, so it definitely could be something else.

I would list all the mods I have installed to help aid in finding out if I have a problem, but I have quite a few and most of them are parts packs or utilities like docking alignment indicators (which wouldn't do much), or are normal base stuff like the 'Community Resource Pack'.

I haven't seen anyone else mention this, so I'll go test it some more to confirm.

EDIT: I just checked it again- it appears to be retroactively using food and water, but not Oxygen from when the kerbal is frozen. I thought it might be because the craft was landed on the surface, but several of my confirmation tests was in orbit, and the same happened.

Edited June 2, 2015 by kklusmeier

[JPLRepo]

I am trying to get this to work with TAC LS, but it appears that the resources are used retroactively when you unfreeze a kerbal.

I think this might be an effect of the Background Processing mod coupled with the new 'unowned' status on kerbals, rather than the old 'dead' status.

That being said, I don't know much about mods, so it definitely could be something else.

I would list all the mods I have installed to help aid in finding out if I have a problem, but I have quite a few and most of them are parts packs or utilities like docking alignment indicators (which wouldn't do much), or are normal base stuff like the 'Community Resource Pack'.

I haven't seen anyone else mention this, so I'll go test it some more to confirm.

EDIT: I just checked it again- it appears to be retroactively using food and water, but not Oxygen from when the kerbal is frozen. I thought it might be because the craft was landed on the surface, but several of my confirmation tests was in orbit, and the same happened.

Ok thanks for this pick-up. This sounds like how TAC LS checks the last time it updated resources and retrospectively consumes resources (it doesn't do background processing). I know this because I have looked into the code before. I wonder if it behaves differently then for kerbals marked as dead then brought back to life. Luckily I'm right in the middle of major re-write of this mod and I will look into it for a fix. Stay tuned.

[Papa_Joe]

Ok thanks for this pick-up. This sounds like how TAC LS checks the last time it updated resources and retrospectively consumes resources (it doesn't do background processing). I know this because I have looked into the code before. I wonder if it behaves differently then for kerbals marked as dead then brought back to life. Luckily I'm right in the middle of major re-write of this mod and I will look into it for a fix. Stay tuned.

Interesting. Dead would definitely solve the problem. Cryo-frozen kerbals are essentially the same as Dead (from a clinical point of view) and from my mod's point of view, it wont matter. I'll just make the needed adjustments and change the status to frozen in the Roster window.

[KillAshley]

wow i only just noticed this was being redone! GREAT work, JPL! seriously! this was a 'must have' mod for me, and it will be good to have it back to use (especially with my New Horizons pack)

[lajoswinkler]

JPLRepo, thanks so much for this!

So the obvious choice is radiators. Squad made the reverse side of solar panels act as a (weak) radiator until (I can only presume) they add dedicated parts. But there are a number of mods that add decently efficient radiators, including angel-125's own DSEV, Heat Management, and most prominently, Nertea's NFE and standalone Heat Control (which also has awesome heat pipes and insulators), which will be considered complete for 1.0.2 imminently but experimental versions are currently available in the dev thread.

It's possible that Heat Control's heat pipes or radiators have a part module that could be used within the cryofreezer itself to act as a "heat pump" that would actively conduct its heat to connected parts.

NFE has solved this problem very well and has several excellent radiator parts, indeed.

Wiki sez: "Long-term cryopreservation can be achieved by cooling to near 77.15 Kelvin (approximately -196.01°C), the boiling point of liquid nitrogen." AFAIK in-game temp units are in Kelvin. However, I think it would be sufficient to require 400 or 300, though, and assume that the Cryofreezer maintains the required temp within the cryostats themselves. I have not played with it in 1.0.2 yet, but DRE actually splits out the temp of a single part into surface temp and interior temp, in which case we might want to make the internal temp required be ~77.

That is cryopreservation of tissues and (gullible) dead people. Nothing is returning from that state and such preservation requires a lot of energy unless the thing is in a permanently shaded crater somewhere. That's why people who want their corpse to be preserved in such way, pay lots of money because decades of liquid nitrogen boiloff is expensive.

What you want is stasis and we could say 10 °C would be sufficient for it.

[JPLRepo]

I am trying to get this to work with TAC LS, but it appears that the resources are used retroactively when you unfreeze a kerbal.

I think this might be an effect of the Background Processing mod coupled with the new 'unowned' status on kerbals, rather than the old 'dead' status.

That being said, I don't know much about mods, so it definitely could be something else.

I would list all the mods I have installed to help aid in finding out if I have a problem, but I have quite a few and most of them are parts packs or utilities like docking alignment indicators (which wouldn't do much), or are normal base stuff like the 'Community Resource Pack'.

I haven't seen anyone else mention this, so I'll go test it some more to confirm.

EDIT: I just checked it again- it appears to be retroactively using food and water, but not Oxygen from when the kerbal is frozen. I thought it might be because the craft was landed on the surface, but several of my confirmation tests was in orbit, and the same happened.

Ok thanks for this pick-up. This sounds like how TAC LS checks the last time it updated resources and retrospectively consumes resources (it doesn't do background processing). I know this because I have looked into the code before. I wonder if it behaves differently then for kerbals marked as dead then brought back to life. Luckily I'm right in the middle of major re-write of this mod and I will look into it for a fix. Stay tuned.

Interesting. Dead would definitely solve the problem. Cryo-frozen kerbals are essentially the same as Dead (from a clinical point of view) and from my mod's point of view, it wont matter. I'll just make the needed adjustments and change the status to frozen in the Roster window.

Ok after further scientific analysis of TAC LS code I don't believe this is ever possible to work with TAC LS without asking TaranisElsu to make modifications to TAC LS.

Basically TAC LS builds it's own list of all kerbals from when you load a KSP game, and it stores that list inside the save file.

Ths list is populated by crewmembers that are aboard loaded vessels.

It keeps track in this internal list of the last time a kerbal consumed water and food.

Looking at the code there are only two ways to remove a kerbal from this list:

The vessel (not the kerbal) is removed from the game (IE: Recovered or destroyed), or the kerbal dies as part of TAC LS, say when a Life Support resource run out.

So when I freeze a kerbal it doesn't actually kill them, just marks them as dead, and even if it did kill them, TAC LS doesn't track an actual kill event.

Inside TAC LS, it doesn't know about this frozen moment, (Now this is important:) but it ONLY consumes life support resources for crew it knows about IF their status is Assigned but it Doesn't REMOVE them from it's internal list.

So when I thaw a kerbal and set their status back to Assigned, TAC LS sees them again and looks when the last time it consumed life support for them and then consumes life support for the whole period they were frozen. It only consumes food and water in this way.

Electricity and oxygen is consumed based on how many kerbals are in the vessel the whole time... so in fact oxygen and electricity consumption works correction with DeepFreeze and TAC LS.

I said there were two ways to remove a kerbal from TAC LS. Well there is a third scenario: If i freeze kerbals and then exit the game (saving it) and then come back into the game TAC LS doesn't see the frozen kerbals on startup and removes them from it's internal list. That way, when I thaw them, it just re-adds them as a new kerbal and doesn't consume life support for the entire time they were frozen.

EDIT: A fourth way: If you freeze all your kerbals on the launchpad TAC LS doesn't monitor them, so when you thaw them it doesn't retrospectively consume life support resources either.

So unless I ask TaranisElsu to change how TAC LS works this can't be changed, and setting them to dead or missing doesn't matter.. I did a test, the same behavior happens for both.

So guess what I am going to have to do.

Edited June 3, 2015 by JPLRepo

[kklusmeier]

I said there were two ways to remove a kerbal from TAC LS. Well there is a third scenario: If i freeze kerbals and then exit the game (saving it) and then come back into the game TAC LS doesn't see the frozen kerbals on startup and removes them from it's internal list. That way, when I thaw them, it just re-adds them as a new kerbal and doesn't consume life support for the entire time they were frozen.

I didn't realize the save/exit/reload would work- all of my tests were done within a single session. I am totally fine with doing this little workaround when I want to do a mission that requires cryo.

Thanks for looking into it!

[Papa_Joe]

Ok after further scientific analysis of TAC LS code I don't believe this is ever possible to work with TAC LS without asking TaranisElsu to make modifications to TAC LS.

Basically TAC LS builds it's own list of all kerbals from when you load a KSP game, and it stores that list inside the save file.

Ths list is populated by crewmembers that are aboard loaded vessels.

It keeps track in this internal list of the last time a kerbal consumed water and food.

Looking at the code there are only two ways to remove a kerbal from this list:

The vessel (not the kerbal) is removed from the game (IE: Recovered or destroyed), or the kerbal dies as part of TAC LS, say when a Life Support resource run out.

So when I freeze a kerbal it doesn't actually kill them, just marks them as dead, and even if it did kill them, TAC LS doesn't track an actual kill event.

Inside TAC LS, it doesn't know about this frozen moment, (Now this is important:) but it ONLY consumes life support resources for crew it knows about IF their status is Assigned but it Doesn't REMOVE them from it's internal list.

So when I thaw a kerbal and set their status back to Assigned, TAC LS sees them again and looks when the last time it consumed life support for them and then consumes life support for the whole period they were frozen. It only consumes food and water in this way.

Electricity and oxygen is consumed based on how many kerbals are in the vessel the whole time... so in fact oxygen and electricity consumption works correction with DeepFreeze and TAC LS.

I said there were two ways to remove a kerbal from TAC LS. Well there is a third scenario: If i freeze kerbals and then exit the game (saving it) and then come back into the game TAC LS doesn't see the frozen kerbals on startup and removes them from it's internal list. That way, when I thaw them, it just re-adds them as a new kerbal and doesn't consume life support for the entire time they were frozen.

EDIT: A fourth way: If you freeze all your kerbals on the launchpad TAC LS doesn't monitor them, so when you thaw them it doesn't retrospectively consume life support resources either.

So unless I ask TaranisElsu to change how TAC LS works this can't be changed, and setting them to dead or missing doesn't matter.. I did a test, the same behavior happens for both.

So guess what I am going to have to do.

based on this, would it be possible to say, freeze a kerbal, (whcih marks them as dead), then unfreeze them and keep them dead for a short period (call it revival after thawing), thereby allowing TAC to "detect" the kerbal as dead after thaw and reentry into the vessel? If so, TAC would "update it's list" and not consume resources... then after a small delay (1 sec or so?), you change their status from Dead to Assigned... TAC would be happy, and we would be happy...

I don't know TAC, so I don't know if this would work...

Thoughts?

[JPLRepo]

based on this, would it be possible to say, freeze a kerbal, (whcih marks them as dead), then unfreeze them and keep them dead for a short period (call it revival after thawing), thereby allowing TAC to "detect" the kerbal as dead after thaw and reentry into the vessel? If so, TAC would "update it's list" and not consume resources... then after a small delay (1 sec or so?), you change their status from Dead to Assigned... TAC would be happy, and we would be happy...

I don't know TAC, so I don't know if this would work...

Thoughts?

Thanks mate, but looking at the TACLS code it won't work. It doesn't check for dead kerbals.

The code doesn't ever consider a crew member could die unless:-

a) the vessel is removed/destroyed that they are on.

TACLS actually kills them itself.

The methods I posted work because of the way the code is written.

To get the current version of TACLS to ignore your kerbals and not consume resources when you thaw them you can either:-

Freeze on the launchpad (but as soon as you thaw them it will start tracking them)

Freeze then exit the save and reload the save game (because it checks for missing kerbals on startup), so this is one work-around.

I have PM'd TaranisElsu hoping he can make a small change to remove frozen kerbals from the TACLS tracking list.

I've already done my own/private version of TACLS that has this change and it works.

[lajoswinkler]

So when this tiny thing gets fixed, TAC+DeepFreeze will be a fully functioning system?

[JPLRepo]

So when this tiny thing gets fixed, TAC+DeepFreeze will be a fully functioning system?

Yes.

and MerlinsMaster is doing some models for IVA. Coming soon!

[WoollyMittens]

I'm so happy to see this unique mod hasn't died on the vine. Just the microwave ping after thawing out a Kerbal is worth installing it.

[lajoswinkler]

DING!