[1.12.x] Alcubierre Warp Drive (Stand-alone)

[RoverDude]

Correct. Xenon was actually removed from the Karbonite distillers, despite much sadness.

You have a few ways to get it other than shipping. First, reactors (but the amount is tiny, and it requires the reactor to be used, plus you need a source for all of that uranium). Second, if you are REALLY lucky, atmospheric or oceanic harvesting.

[Ricardo79]

It is a good thing to make it hard to get. So have to mine uranium in order to raise xenon level

And yes Those scoops are really helpfull It is a shame that doesn't came out in probe sized (I did make one to myself scalerate .261 = 0.625m with a 0 attach node size)

Ohh I do have some question if I may:

How can I make it less effective I mean there is an effeciency but either the 2.50 and the 1.25 uses 1 on that.

Is that intended? And how can I make them different? Can I use a bigger or a smaller number there? OR is it set by another parameter somewhere else?

[helaeon]

I've been playing with the efficiency by altering the ISP value.

	atmosphereCurve
 	{
   	 key = 0 12500
  	 key = 1 10
 	}

Change that key = 0 to whatever you like. There's your space ISP.

Myself, I don't want it as inefficient as before the 15c change, but I think it's way too efficient right now. Pre higher speed it took nearly all the ExoticMatter to get to Jool.

I haven't had much time to test it though, my little test flight to the Mun seemed like it used a lot. If you come up with some good and fair numbers share please

[RoverDude]

I'm reviewing a lot of the numbers in light of the speed changes, etc. and there will be an updated release of this for 1.0

[FreeThinker]

I wonder, has anyone every tried a MM KSPI integration patch yet for this mod, I would like to investigate if I can integrate this mod into KSPI Extended

[RoverDude]

Which bit? plugin or model or both?

We're already using CRP exotic matter so it should just work. What did you have in mind?

[FreeThinker]

For Now Both. For starters a want to create simple MM patch which replaces ElectricCharge by MegaJooles, because 10000 ElectricCharge would be generated in a single frame by an reactor. First I want to replace, KiloWatt by MegaWatt, which is probably still too too little considering the Antimatter reactor can generate it more in a single second

I'm currently using the following code

@PART[USI_WarpDrive]:FOR[WarpPlugin]
{
    @title = Large Alcubierre Drive (2.5m)

    !MODULE[REGO_ModuleResourceConverter]{}

    MODULE
    {
        name = REGO_ModuleResourceConverter
        StartActionName = Start ExoticMatter 
        StopActionName = Stop ExoticMatter
        RecipeInputs = Megajoules,10000
        RecipeOutputs = ExoticMatter,1,false
    }

    !MODULE[ModuleEngines]{}

MODULE
{
    name = ModuleEngines
    thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
    exhaustDamage = False
    ignitionThreshold = 0.1
    minThrust = 0
    maxThrust = 100
    heatProduction = 10
    fxOffset = 0, 0, 0
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = Megajoules
            ratio = 2.9
        DrawGauge = True
    }
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = ExoticMatter
        ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = XenonGas
        ratio = .1
        DrawGauge = True
    }

    atmosphereCurve
     {
        key = 0 15000
       key = 1 10
     }    
}


    !RESOURCE[ExoticMatter]{}

    RESOURCE
    {
         name = ExoticMatter
         amount = 0
         maxAmount = 15000
    }

}

Could you please explain the role XenonGas, it it just a way to put some mass into the engines, or does it actually provide some real acceleration. Could it be replaced by something else, more exotic?

Edited March 5, 2015 by FreeThinker

[futrtrubl]

Could you please explain the role XenonGas, it it just a way to put some mass into the engines, or does it actually provide some real acceleration. Could it be replaced by something else, more exotic?

The mass may be important but I believe it is more a mechanic to limit the total distance you can travel at warp before returning to Kerbin to refuel.

[RoverDude]

Well, a couple of considerations.

The Xenon is there for mass, and also as a limiting factor (mass is needed for the engine to be throttle controlled). I'd say just make sure if you borrow this, that you include a corresponding bit in your NFT compatibility pack to scale it back down to NFT levels (which is kinda where it is now)

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Also - would prefer you do this as just a distributed config vs. a bundle, tho I expect that goes without saying Helps keep things simple.

[FreeThinker]

The mass may be important but I believe it is more a mechanic to limit the total distance you can travel at warp before returning to Kerbin to refuel.

Well, for KSPI Extended, I'm going to remove the XenonGas requirement, which is ment as a limitter, but for KSPI that's just silly

Instead I'm going to use LqdHelium, supposedly to turn the WarpDrive Ring into a super conductor. Which will be needed to create super strong magnetic field to contain the exotic Matter which is extremely volatile. Maintaining the super strong magnetic field will require a lot of power (At least 1GW) but it will always leak a bit of exotic matter due to Hawking radiation. This will prevent you from gathering exotic matter over a long period with low tech reactors. This means only with Antimatter reactor with a significant supply of Antimatter you can generate enough power to use the warpdrive comfortably.

I can implement this effect by adding FNModuleCryostat module which require a lot of power just to keep the magnetic field strong enough to prevent the exotic matter from escaping too fast. This will make the Warp Drive only useful in combination with antimatter reactor and a significant storage of antimatter, since only antimatter reactors have enough power to maintain the Magnetic field and generate Exotic matter to create a warp bubble.

@PART[USI_WarpDrive]:FOR[WarpPlugin]
{
    @title = Large Alcubierre Drive (2.5m)

    !MODULE[REGO_ModuleResourceConverter]{}

    MODULE
    {
        name = REGO_ModuleResourceConverter
        StartActionName = Start ExoticMatter 
        StopActionName = Stop ExoticMatter
        RecipeInputs = Megajoules,10000,LqdHelium,1
        RecipeOutputs = ExoticMatter,1,false,WasteHeat,1000,false
    }

    !MODULE[ModuleEngines]{}

MODULE
{
    name = ModuleEngines
    thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
    exhaustDamage = False
    ignitionThreshold = 0.1
    minThrust = 0
    maxThrust = 100
    heatProduction = 10
    fxOffset = 0, 0, 0
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = Megajoules
            ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = ExoticMatter
        ratio = 1
        DrawGauge = True
    }
    PROPELLANT
    {
        name = LqdHelium
        ratio = .1
        DrawGauge = True
    }

    atmosphereCurve
     {
        key = 0 15000
       key = 1 10
     }    
}

    !RESOURCE[ExoticMatter]{}

    RESOURCE
    {
         name = ExoticMatter
         amount = 0
         maxAmount = 15000
    }

    !RESOURCE[XenonGas]{}

    MODULE
    {
    name        =    FNModuleCryostat
    resourceName    =    ExoticMatter
    resourceGUIName =    ExoticMatter
    boilOffRate     =    0
    powerReqKW    =    1000000
    boilOffMultiplier =    1
    boilOffAddition =    1.0e-6
    }

}

Edited March 6, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

Rock on, as long as it lands in a place that does not mess with NFT or USI mods if they are in the same install, that's pretty much my one request given this is an active mod.

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Meaning, if NFT is installed it's power reqs should scale back to what it is now.

[SyberSmoke]

I have been reading through the thread and well...yeah stopped at page 12. So I was curious about something...have you considered allowing the user to link two drives together and then use a proceduraly generated pill shaped field to allow longer ship ships at a cost?

[RoverDude]

I have been reading through the thread and well...yeah stopped at page 12. So I was curious about something...have you considered allowing the user to link two drives together and then use a proceduraly generated pill shaped field to allow longer ship ships at a cost?

Considered, but not on the table really. The bubble size is an intentional design constraint.

[SyberSmoke]

Considered, but not on the table really. The bubble size is an intentional design constraint.

Maintain the bubbles volume, but adding the second drive make it pill shaped to have longer vessels in the same volume of space. Your constraint remains, the player gets versatility at the cost of additional resource needs. One drive keeps it default. Ok, back to the shadows I go.

[FreeThinker]

Maintain the bubbles volume, but adding the second drive make it pill shaped to have longer vessels in the same volume of space. Your constraint remains, the player gets versatility at the cost of additional resource needs. One drive keeps it default. Ok, back to the shadows I go.

Going to fix this issue with Tweakscale. Of cource the power requirement will also grow by power 3

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Rock on, as long as it lands in a place that does not mess with NFT or USI mods if they are in the same install, that's pretty much my one request given this is an active mod.

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Meaning, if NFT is installed it's power reqs should scale back to what it is now.

It's too bad the WarpDrive Mod isn't in a seperate Folder which can be detected by MM, I can only detect UmbraSpaceIndustries, or not?

Edited March 6, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

Sure, the bubble size is just a config value (it was broken out as a separate model to allow independent scaling) and it already varies by the different drive models. But that's a different kettle of fish than stacking multiple drives, which I disagree with.

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Going to fix this issue with Tweakscale. Of cource the power requirement will also grove with power 3

- - - Updated - - -

It's too bad the WarpDrive Mod isn't in a seperate Folder which can be detected by MM, I can only detect UmbraSpaceIndustries, or not?

Sure it is, even has it's own plugin. Tho for these purposes, looking for either USITools or NFT will sort it, since that would indicate the presence of the scaled down reactors. That way if someone has KSPI-E they get KSPI-E functionality, and if they have NFT or one of the USI mods (all of which use the same power scale as NFT), then it keeps it's current functionality.

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Side note - once we get CRP sorted out, me you and nertea should talk and figure out how to get the different power and heat systems in sync.

[SyberSmoke]

Cool, I understand the sentiment as having two linked drives could be odd, op, unbalanced...etc. At the same time it has a grounding in current theory on how the system works. I will admit, it is also for the "Holy drek that looks awesome" factor.

[RoverDude]

The problem is that once you start stacking drives, it gets abused to oblivion. We had this entire conversation earlier in the thread

Again, what folks do with their own saves is their own business, the tinker toys are there to play with. Just (as noted) I appreciate it if folks do not mess with this in ways that causes conflict in my own mod constellation.

[SyberSmoke]

Cool, My thought was only to use the second drive (or an alternate...say secondary) as a way to define the distance on the pill shape. Though it could be done equally well in a tweakable. Any way, Looks cool, I will mess with it when 1.0 comes around as right now rather not get to involved in the game when so much is going to change.

[daniel l.]

Because you have to have some mass for the engine part module to work, and ExoticMatter has no mass as it's shared with KSPI

Actually exotic matter has negative mass, The more you have the less you weigh.

[FreeThinker]

Sure it is, even has it's own plugin. Tho for these purposes, looking for either USITools or NFT will sort it, since that would indicate the presence of the scaled down reactors. That way if someone has KSPI-E they get KSPI-E functionality, and if they have NFT or one of the USI mods (all of which use the same power scale as NFT), then it keeps it's current functionality.

Well for the moment I will use the following simple logic:

If you install WarpPlugin, you get acces to Antimatter Power, which will be required to use WarpEngines effectively. meaning you will require many Gigawatts to use warp travel, It would be unbalanced otherwise.

I think for the moment I'm going to disable the existing KSPI Warp Engines and optionaly allow the download of this Warp Engine Plugin to create balanced Warp capable vessels.

Question, Is there anyway I can use MM to detect if these WarpEngines parts are loaded?

Perhaps at an latter time, if you allow me, I can integrate some of it's code/graphics into KSPI, which would solve Mod conflicts and allow we to create more realisitic exotic matter charging behavior, improved tweakscale integration, GUI and safety features, (like dropping out of warp before the warp bubble implodes due to missing resources).

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Actually exotic matter has negative mass, The more you have the less you weigh.

Indeed, but I don't think KSP engine can handle this. On the other hand, Exotic matter should have the side effect of pushing everything away, which could be modeled I think. Might function like a AoE repulsor, pushing every vessel in the vicinity away from the warp drive. Perhaps it would also be possible to try to slowly pull the vessel apart, the more Exotic matter is created, the stronger the effect. Exotic matter should function as the Opposite effect of a miniature Black Holle. Instead of pulling everything in, It would push everything away. Therefore you might want to create a ship that is strong enough not to be ripped apart by the tidal forces generated by the exotic matter.

Edited March 6, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

Side note - once we get CRP sorted out, me you and nertea should talk and figure out how to get the different power and heat systems in sync.

Currently KSPI uses ORS which has some nasty side effecys which causes it to behave unrealsitic and weird at high time warp. Does Rigolith offer an alternative which works better?

Edited March 6, 2015 by FreeThinker

[RoverDude]

Define the side effects - Odds are Regolith took them out already

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Side note - what I honestly would prefer to avoid is two versions of an active mod running around, because that's going to cause a lot of confusion (and headaches for me). Let's be clear - the license allows that. I make stuff open so people can play with the tinker toys. But part of the reason this mod exists is specifically for people who want an alternative warp drive.

So if the intent (which I think is a good one) is to increase interop, then we're going to need to sort it where this works in KSPI-Land without essentially breaking my mod or transforming it from a USI-friendly thing into a KSPI-thing or breaking t's design intent. I'm all for collaboration on that of course, and I expect we can come to a place that makes everyone happy.

The biggest thing to sort there is the power differential between KSPI and NFT. If we can unify on power, then at that point it becomes a design discussion where we're at least in the same ballpark. But requiring antimatter reactors is kinda a no-go, because USI and NFT do not have antimatter reactors

If the intent for antimatter reactors is to push it up the tech tree, CTT already solves that, and I expect we can find some reactors that are on the high end in NFT (and I could add a USI analogue) that fit the bill. if the intent is to make charging difficult, we have some other (non-antimatter) levers we can pull that make sure things are consistent.

Of course in the short term, a MM that turns off when it sees NFT/USI works until we can sort out how to get us all on the same power model. At that point, I'd be happy to collaborate and adjust the design in a way that helps it work stand alone, with KSPI, or with NFT/USI (which again is the entire intent of this specific mod).

[CaribouGone]

Hi!

so, i changed the .cfg so that minAltitude=0, so i can warp in the atmosphere.

but now, when i launch a ship, the drive starts activated, no matter how the staging is set up.

i've also noticed that, with the altitude fail safe in place, upon launch, you can see a bubble collapsing, similar to trying to activating the drive below minimum altitude.

so it would seem that the "starting active" behavior is already present, but the fail safe shuts it down before causing problems.

i don't think this is a bug per se; this mod works just as advertised, and my ksp install is very stable, with and without mods.

still, this is something i'd like to change. hopefully, its as simple as another .cfg edit.

either way, thanks for yet another great mod, roverdude!

[helaeon]

There are lots of good reasons, even outside of game-play why you'd want to not be warping in atmosphere for example:

If you're using the upcoming momentum preserving option, that's the one that *might* cause a build up of gamma rays on the front of the bubble. Those would be interacting with the molecules in the atmosphere for extra bad times. Even without the gamma radiation the effects of warping space time like that in a dense collection of atoms and molecules is completely unknown. You'd hope that you wouldn't cause fusion, but the Sun is also a powerful warping of space time, as are black holes and neutron stars.

The classic velocity version, you pop out of space time so you take all of that atmospheric material with you. Which would upon reaching space expand on PV=nRT rules. That may also not be fun.

Yeah so warping in atmo is a bad plan.

That min-altitude value is the multiple of the planetary radius. Personally I am using .5 so I have to be 1/2 planetary radius away, so kerbin is 300km, .25 would be 150km, .125 would be 75km. It looks like atmospheres start at about that .125 value. So, that would probably be a safer one to use if you want to run the drive as long as you're in space. This is just advice for your own personal config (which you can do whatever you want with). I wouldn't expect the behavior to change much for the main line mod.

Pro-tip: Generally I like to avoid using zero as a value in configs unless it's known that's an okay value to use when I'm modifying them without knowledge of the underlying code to prevent division by zero errors. Or, I know that if I use zero, that it may introduce weirdness and crashes.