Riots in USA

[Capt.Joseph Kerbertson]

The state should have a monopoly on legitimate use of force, and that legitimacy needs to be upheld by prosecuting abuses of power, and that did not happen in this case, from all appearances.

Not sure what you've seen, but the evidence showed there was a struggle, that the "eyewitness" was in fact wrong on all counts. There is over 4700 pages of evidence, none of it points to cold blooded murder. The only abuse of power I've seen was the initial response to the riots back in August.

[Red Iron Crown]

They are finding that the majority of trouble makers arrested are not from the area. They are just there for a fight, there to stir the pot.

I'm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse about what's going on.

Not sure what you've seen, but the evidence showed there was a struggle, that the "eyewitness" was in fact wrong on all counts. There is over 4700 pages of evidence, none of it points to cold blooded murder. The only abuse of power I've seen was the initial response to the riots back in August.

Sadly, once it becomes a perceived race issue the facts hardly seem to matter anymore. Many people just cannot be rational and reasonable about such things.

[LordFerret]

Was it actually him?

This is the 21st century... video.

[LordFerret]

They are finding that the majority of trouble makers arrested are not from the area. They are just there for a fight, there to stir the pot.

Correct. Someone else's agenda. Sad, misguided, desperate.

[Wanderfound]

1. Be upset about court decision (rightly or wrongly, I don't know the specifics of the case)

2. Destroy own neighborhood.

3. ....

4. Profit?

I don't get it.

In my experience of protests, the rock that justifies the teargas is often thrown by an undercover cop, when it exists at all. Which would be entirely in character for the Ferguson police based on their behaviour so far.

Which is not to say that there isn't some genuine non-police rioting going on as well. Screwed-over people do screwed-up things; humans are pretty nasty at the best if times, and violent oppression usually doesn't make them any nicer.

And, not to forget, the vast majority of rioting in the US over the last few decades has been undertaken by drunken white people in the aftermath of professional sporting events. Or that the worst race riot in American history was undertaken by white New Yorkers in response to the Emancipation Proclamation.

[Capt.Joseph Kerbertson]

In my experience of protests, the rock that justifies the teargas is often thrown by an undercover cop, when it exists at all. Which would be entirely in character for the Ferguson police based on their behaviour so far.

Which is not to say that there isn't some genuine non-police rioting going on as well. Screwed-over people do screwed-up things; humans are pretty nasty at the best if times, and violent oppression usually doesn't make them any nicer.

And, not to forget, the vast majority of rioting in the US over the last few decades has been undertaken by drunken white people in the aftermath of professional sporting events. Or that the worst race riot in American history was undertaken by white New Yorkers in response to the Emancipation Proclamation.

Nobody is saying it's not.

I think he's just saying he doesn't understand the logic behind destroying ones own neighborhood for the sake of being angry. It doesn't make sense, riots in general don't make sense. Protests I understand. Be angry, shout, band together and shout together, but riots... completely different mentality.

[Wanderfound]

Nobody is saying it's not.

I think he's just saying he doesn't understand the logic behind destroying ones own neighborhood for the sake of being angry. It doesn't make sense, riots in general don't make sense. Protests I understand. Be angry, shout, band together and shout together, but riots... completely different mentality.

Yeah; that's where the second paragraph comes in. Messed-up people do messed-up things.

In my local context, there's plenty of appalling stuff happening within Australian Indigenous communities (e.g. massive domestic violence issues), and the history of genocidal oppression and the still-present discrimination doesn't excuse it on an individual level. But you'll never understand or solve the problems if you ignore the context they arose from.

Peaceful, non-violent protest is a noble thing. There's certainly a good argument to be made that MLK and Ghandi showed the way that it "should" be done. But there's also a defensible argument (backed up by a lot of modern social psych research) that both approaches are important, that the only reason MLK succeeded was because the white community saw him as their way out of the much scarier alternative presented by Malcolm X and the Panthers. Carrots are nice, but they don't have much effect without at least the possibility of the stick.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Wanderfound

[vger]

One of the most screwed up things about political correctness in situations like this, is the assumption that the "victims of the system" are somehow 'magically' more honest then those who have privilege.

They're all humans. I see no reason why the black side of the debate is going to be any more honest. The kid who got killed has been hailed as a martyr, sweet, gentle, (insert cuddly Mom word here). Doesn't change the fact that he was a criminal and was capable of snapping most of us in half with one hand. And the media is NOT helping in these matters.

There was an incident in the past few months involving a woman in a minivan who got pulled over by a white cop. After being fired upon by police, she later told the press that she felt like she was going to become the next Michael Brown.

Back up the van a moment, folks.

The woman got pulled over, argued with the cop, acting like she owned the universe, and then sped away. She got pulled over again, and he ordered her to exit the vehicle. She refused, and he attempted to arrest her. Then one of her kids got out of the car and assaulted the officer. At this point, a second cop car arrived on the scene. The kid runs back into the van and they speed away, and the cop who just arrived, opens fire on the van. The officer who fired at her was black.

Everyone is whining about how Ferguson could've been avoided if all police had to carry cameras. The sad thing is, this ENTIRE incident was recorded on a police dash cam from start to finish, but it has STILL been doctored and promoted as a blatant example of how evil and oppressive the white race is. Political correctness might we well just be another denomination of a certain type of organization, that completely ignores facts whenever necessary. When facts contradict political correctness, whoever spoke them must simply be a biased racist, sexist, (insert prefix here)ist... etc.

Edited November 26, 2014 by vger

[LordFerret]

One of the more interesting things I find of people, is that of all the efforts to desegregate us (in the hopes we'll all get along, fairness and equality and all that), in the end we all end up segregating ourselves back into our respective groups (be it race, religion, whatever). Perhaps the answer is segregation. Like everything else under the sun in nature, birds of a feather flock together, fish in schools, buffalo in herds, etc etc etc, while at the same time (for the most part) can intermingle out on the playground (for commerce/trade).

No, sorry, I have no definitive perfect answer - nor am I going to pretend to.

Edit: The one thing I will preach, or wish of everyone, is self-respect, respect for others, morals. You are nowhere without them.

Edited November 26, 2014 by LordFerret

[SpaceXray]

To me it's funny how everyone thinks the reason for the officer to shoot him is just because he was black.

The charges should be dropped. You shouldn't go around with a fake weapon pointing it at the police.

[mrrpamplemousse]

Does anyone can pretend to know the complete story? From my point of view, it looks like everyone is taking a stand without much information.

[Motokid600]

There all rioting against the wrong thing. It's the media and politicians that should be on the chopping block. Read this. Amazing article. Best thing ive read about this whole situation.

[Capt.Joseph Kerbertson]

To me it's funny how everyone thinks the reason for the officer to shoot him is just because he was black.

The charges should be dropped. You shouldn't go around with a fake weapon pointing it at the police.

[SpaceXray]

There all rioting against the wrong thing. It's the media and politicians that should be on the chopping block. Read this. Amazing article. Best thing ive read about this whole situation.

[Drunken Hobo]

A few people have mentioned the correct word - "media". With 24-hour news channels, the internet, newspapers & radio needing to fill so much time & space, they've got to invent their own news. How else are they going to sell their subscriptions & adverts? Media constantly do this, whether it's creating unfounded health scares (e.g. MMR, mobile phones) or glorifying mass-shootings (too many to list).

It's a weird situation though, as I don't believe there are shadowy figureheads sitting in smoke-filled boardrooms, plotting what the days news will be. Rather, it's just the way that the media works, almost like a hive mind, and nobody wants to change it.

Another "convenient" side-effect of riots such as these is that it drives a wedge between people. Black people are portrayed as fighting against the man. But it's the wrong man they're fighting against and just distracts them from the real reasons so many will spend their life in poverty. White people see the rioting as nothing but mindless savagery & thuggery. (Note: These are just generalisations, there will be blacks who condemn the riots & whites who support them.)

There ends up being distrust between whites & blacks, further driving them into their own "communities" and creating enemies of each other. Whilst their true enemies sit back and laugh, knowing the proles are too busy fighting themselves to make any concerted attack on the elite. Divide & rule worked for rulers 2000 years ago, and it works for them today.

[vger]

It's a weird situation though, as I don't believe there are shadowy figureheads sitting in smoke-filled boardrooms, plotting what the days news will be. Rather, it's just the way that the media works, almost like a hive mind, and nobody wants to change it.

You know something I find interesting, I've heard logical explanations for pretty much everything that mythology has created a wild concept for, except the devil.

Usually just about everything, from "why does the sun rise" to "why is birth painful" has had a really unusual explanation given for it at one point or another. But nobody ever seems to give "evil" a serious thought. Nobody wonders how THAT concept came about. I find it hard to believe that it didn't come from just as much observation as all of the other things. Alright, so maybe there wasn't a red guy with horns and a pitchfork. Doesn't mean those people hadn't figured out a thing or two about human nature.

[Wanderfound]

You know something I find interesting, I've heard logical explanations for pretty much everything that mythology has created a wild concept for, except the devil.

Usually just about everything, from "why does the sun rise" to "why is birth painful" has had a really unusual explanation given for it at one point or another. But nobody ever seems to give "evil" a serious thought. Nobody wonders how THAT concept came about. I find it hard to believe that it didn't come from just as much observation as all of the other things. Alright, so maybe there wasn't a red guy with horns and a pitchfork. Doesn't mean those people hadn't figured out a thing or two about human nature.

Tangential, but slightly related:

This reminds me of a quote from G.K. Chesterton, responding to a comment along the lines of "we shouldn't expose children to fantastic fiction, because it will make them afraid of monsters".

Chesterton's response was: "Fairytales don't teach children that monsters exist. They already know that monsters exist. Fairytales teach them that monsters can be killed."

Yeah, evil is a thing that exists (although the manifestation is usually more subtle, nuanced and complicated than the mythological portrayal). You don't need theology to recognise that.

[PakledHostage]

Yeah, evil is a thing that exists (although the manifestation is usually more subtle, nuanced and complicated than the mythological portrayal).

A none too subtle, nuanced or complicated display of evil by the driver of this car in Ferguson:

[Wanderfound]

A none too subtle, nuanced or complicated display of evil by the driver of this car in Ferguson:

Things have been a bit blatant over there lately. Hence the international reaction.

[andrew123]

I'm surprised. I'd of thought that the mods would find this thread too political, but I guess we're either not in their sights yet, or the discussion is going well.

Edited November 27, 2014 by andrew123

[LordFerret]

I'm surprised. I'd of thought that the mods would find this thread too political, but I guess we're either not in their sights yet, or the discussion is going well.

As the OP of this thread, I was hesitant to start it, because I wondered exactly that. My intention was to point out a terrible situation, and to stress to all those here to not become party to it. I personally see nothing wrong with discussion of anything provided all those expressing opinions and asking questions do so with respect and a civil tongue. Dialog is essential, it is what is needed here - it is needed everywhere. Believe me when I tell you: If I do see this thread turn sour, hostile and disrespectful - never mind the moderators, I'll delete it myself. I'm glad to see that so far it has not done that... so please, let us keep it that way.

[Drunken Hobo]

A none too subtle, nuanced or complicated display of evil by the driver of this car in Ferguson:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Driving a car slowly into a very large crowd of angry people? That Darwin Award levels of stupidity.

I'm surprised. I'd of thought that the mods would find this thread too political, but I guess we're either not in their sights yet, or the discussion is going well.

The discussion has been fairly sensible & most importantly non-partisan. Nobody's come out with any needless blaming of any particular group, rather there's a consensus that it's just a sad state of affairs brought about by an unwinnable situation.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Drunken Hobo

[PakledHostage]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Driving a car slowly into a very large crowd of angry people? That Darwin Award levels of stupidity.

I think you need to watch the video again. There is also more footage of the event filmed from the ground if you look for it. Unlike in other areas, this crowd wasn't rioting. They were blocking an intersection in relatively peaceful protest. Other cars are able to find openings and drive through without difficulty.

This car comes to a stop before reaching the crowd then rams the people, running several over including the lady who gets dragged under the wheels. It is only then that the crowd (understandably) attacks the car. Nobody shot the driver or pulled him out of his car to curb stomp him. He escapes by ramming the crowd a second time, running over more people.

You can say what you want about the second ramming instance, but the first was pretty clearly motivated by rage and lack of regard for others.

I will say again that we should remember that the vast majority of protests last summer were non violent. Many of the people who are protesting today are continuing that trend. Unfortunately, a few bad apples (on both sides of the issue, it seems) are trying their best to rile everyone else up and spoil the whole bunch.

[kenbobo]

I would just like to give my 2 cents here-

A persons color does not matter, we all are homo sapien sapiens. We all are identical in our anatomy, just a different personality.

[sal_vager]

Oh dear how did this slip past....

Guys, this is overly political and there's better places to discuss this than a video game forum.

I'll have to close this.