parts [1.12.x] Sounding Rockets! Start small. Dream big!

[qm3ster]

just trust Ferram he knows what he's talking about.

And to be honest I partially recant my earlier statement, which was unjustly harsh. I did in fact have a working single-stage sounding rocket flying okay under FAR. Once I started building them longer though (2-stage) the thrust was too low to overcome the body lift generated by the length of the rocket

Time to come clean:

I actually meant they are fairly overpowered. If you grab mostly all popular mods available today, only VX-C9 "Constellation" Engine outclasses clusters of the engine I showed, at like 32 engines mass needed to get same thrust. As a space maneuvering engine it's OP all the way until nuclear.

[RoverDude]

Vagueness.

I cannot make out your screenshot at all, can't tell what engines you're even using, and you have not detailed whether or not you are using FAR, etc.?

[qm3ster]

Vagueness. I cannot make out your screenshot at all, can't tell what engines you're even using, and you have not detailed whether or not you are using FAR, etc.?

Mini Aerospike. ISP 378/380

As a lifter, it's honestly balanced by mass and part count. But in space?

[RoverDude]

Mini Aerospike. ISP 378/380

As a lifter, it's honestly balanced by mass and part count. But in space?

Available late in the tech tree along with other tiny engines - but log a github issue and I'll look at the stats.

[Prezombie]

A few small bugs:

The 0.625m nosecone is labelled as a 0.031m nosecone.

All 3 fins have identical prices. I'd suggest making it 15/25/35.

The VAB icons of the SR science modules have the models rotated in a way that makes them all identical. Rotate them so the icons look different, and preferably alter the black base color to different colors like the original centered versions (which honestly look better anyway).

The auto-detachment doesn't work properly for the first part. Removing the first part attribute from the engines would likely be a good idea, as well as suggesting in the description of the truss that it belongs as the core of a SR.

On the other hand, the auto-detachment works too well when the solid rockets are attached radially, they're practically free extra TWR. Except the SRE-XL, which for some reason attaches radially to the center of the engine rather than the edge, which understandably causes problems when they try to fall off. Banning radial attachment for the SR engines and tanks would likely be a good idea, unless you're planning a tiny, extremely fragile radial strut. If the SR propulsion units are given much lower temperature tolerance, this shouldn't be much of a problem though.

The staging system doesn't seem to understand that the stacked engines and the parachutes don't belong in different stages. Is there any way to force KSP into treating these parts as stage ends?

Fuels is an absurdly late position to put the Liquid Fueled SR parts. They belong in general rocketry, or Advanced rocketry at the very latest. Same with the toy gyroscope and the probe core.

The Fairings parts should be in the aerodynamics tab, not in structural. The Fairings parts need a cost higher than 1. The core of the truss is modelled in such a way that parts always have their attachment point pointing towards the center, making all but the most careful placements look odd. Can this be fixed by changing the internal structure?

The Avionics package is an extremely OP early game part, SAS without a pilot isn't normally possible until a 90 science node. With the neat little launch sticks and fixed fins, SAS shouldn't even be needed, aim with the sticks, launch, repeat.

Alternatively, you could make the starting command pod a 0.31m scale part with absolutely unbearable stats for anything but short flights (long term requiring too many batteries to get enough lift, or solar panels which are obviously too heavy), but have the command pod in the miniaturization node have the proper SAS as well as a much more efficient electriccharge drain on par with stock probe cores.

Miniaturization could also offer size 00 and size 0 solar panels which look like a closed SR fairing when stowed, only to deploy by simply unfolding the fairings into small actuated panels, making it possible for masochists to make miniature satellites with just the SR parts.

In the spirit of Kerbal engineering, Nearly every part in this pack should be much more fragile to both heat and collision damage, in order to make more explosions. Besides the Nosecone and the Fairings parts, they should break easily if mistreated. the engines should have only a small margin of error, only slightly hotter than their max temp when fired, easily popping if they're bundled up into a cluster.

Additionally, the electronics should be much less efficient. the toy gyro could likely get away with 1m/s, maybe even less. Cores and the gyro could each require much more electric charge while being 1 kilo each instead of 10. I think that in order to counter the problem would be to remove SAS from the the avionics package, and set it to with Mass 0.001 and electric charge req. of 20 charge/min. Perhaps a small size tweak downwards as well.

That aerospike is crazy powerful. Nerf plz.

Small and large truss-half-sized containers meant to fit inside the SRs would be a lovely way to send things up to a space station. Eyeball intercept, launch up emergency noms/spare parts/rocketparts/the new release of the adventures of Jeb, once the intercept is close, EVA out and grab them.

Finally, considering how specialized most of these SR parts are meant to be, I'd say that they deserve their own dedicated tab. Not enough specialized parts packs make their own tab.

That's all for now, I haven't spent all day with model rockets since I was a kid.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Prezombie

[RoverDude]

0.2.2.0 IS UP

0.3.0 - 2015.10.16

------------------

Fixed dry mass issues with fuel tanks

Adjusted engines to be comparable to stock analogues

Bundled updated USI Core

*NOTE: Reactors and Kontainers are not bundled, just the DLL

- - - Updated - - -

@Prezombie - thanks for the feedback! Let me noodle over that list

[nobodyhasthis]

Allrighty, just wanted to be sure. I was almost sure it was the case, but I could have always been wrong. Is there something I don't know? That seems a little.. tense as an answer

Not really. It just gets tense when mixing mods. It is hard to debug when a mod is modified. Lets leave it at that. Although it does not answer your question so I want to help. Hopefully my own experience of mixing sounding rockets with other mods will be of some use.

Anyway, the problem I'm having is that the science experiments don't provide any option to gather science while in flight. They have no action whatsoever, and even science alert doesn't seem them as avaliable. In the VAB, they still show as having experiments doable, however. Thanks for everything!

It they have been used then Science Alert will not pick them up again. SETI does change how two material stock experiments work but as far as I know there is nothing in there that changes Sounding Rockets. There a few other common changes that come from the same source code that started Science Revisited Revisited https://kerbalstuff.com/mod/617/Science%20Revisited%20Revisited Mainly transmission rates for pure data experiments and filling in silly biome gaps. Just remember that on the material sciences side of things. In the early days of space flight you will want to bring back material samples for the best results. Realistically that means bringing back the whole experimental package and not just some data.

As suggested drop out SETI and see how it feels with stock experiments. An alternative approach is to use some excellent mods that fine tune this game play feature. Ship Manifest and For Science will both move experiments and reset science equipment at will. Ship Manifest will even be used to provide a half way point to a situation where some experiments can't be collected based to craft design. If you find that sort of thing a good playing experience.

As far as getting the experiments back safely.... FAR does not break things but you do have to rethink sounding rockets.

I will happily take a FAR mm patch as a pull request

Which is a kind offer. Nice but then we will be back demanding Real chute support.

To be honest we don't want to bug you with the little stuff. It is a great mod right now.

just trust Ferram he knows what he's talking about. And to be honest I partially recant my earlier statement, which was unjustly harsh. I did in fact have a working single-stage sounding rocket flying okay under FAR. Once I started building them longer though (2-stage) the thrust was too low to overcome the body lift generated by the length of the rocket

The first time I ran into the problem of using FAR. I posted the joke that sounding rockets fly like they are made of cardboard. Which I found funny because that is the way they should fly given the in game descriptions. It is early technology but it will give enough science to build better rockets.

The only thing that does not work in FAR is the fins and chutes. However in my tech tree the basic stock fins are right there in the first node. They work just fine.

If you find a sounding rocket curving in flight. It can sometimes come from an off center payload weight. It is too easy to place an experiment off center. Try putting in a tiny vertical rotation in the placement of the fins. So the sounding rocket becomes spin stabilized in early flight. This will also help with a lower TWR.

Of course what goes up must come down. If your seeing problems with chutes and a higher that expected terminal velocity in FAR. Then Real Chutes is your friend. It will can be used to replace the mini sounding rocket chutes.

Edited October 17, 2015 by nobodyhasthis

[Drew Kerman]

If you find a sounding rocket curving in flight. It can sometimes come from an off center payload weight. It is too easy to place an experiment off center. Try putting in a tiny vertical rotation in the placement of the fins. So the sounding rocket becomes spin stabilized in early flight. This will also help with a lower TWR.

This reminds me I wanted to seek feedback on this rocket:

It's a slightly modified version of this rocket:

The changes I've made were to shrink and stick the antenna inside the fairing and also put 5 degrees pitch on the fins for spin. It's thrusting at full power for both engines. RCS build aid shows 0kN of torque on the rocket so its balanced. I think I'm just not getting high enough before the second stage goes off, doesn't have enough thrust to overcome the pressure of the air that has built up ahead of it as it nears supersonic speed. I'm launching at an 85 degree angle

[HighExplosives12]

I have an idea for this mod: the grid fin's descriptions should have something involving waffles, waffle makers, or waffle factories.

[nobodyhasthis]

This reminds me I wanted to seek feedback on this rocket:

http://youtu.be/qb-YvF3HgVo

It's a slightly modified version of this rocket:

http://i.imgur.com/SKM2Auim.jpg

The changes I've made were to shrink and stick the antenna inside the fairing and also put 5 degrees pitch on the fins for spin. It's thrusting at full power for both engines. RCS build aid shows 0kN of torque on the rocket so its balanced. I think I'm just not getting high enough before the second stage goes off, doesn't have enough thrust to overcome the pressure of the air that has built up ahead of it as it nears supersonic speed. I'm launching at an 85 degree angle

I am not the expert here. However looking at the wonderful diagram has given me an idea. That is an amazing picture of your rocket.

The rocket is almost at 300m/s by the time the first stage burns out. It seems a good launch and the rocket is spinning which should remove little errors in payload weight. The trouble is the second stage adds nothing because the rocket flips out straight away. The center of gravity is off as soon as the first stage drops away. What you need is fins on the second stage to counter act the balance. Sounding rockets provides a number of different fin sizes. So you can put small fins on the second stage and medium fins on the first stage. Have a look at this picture of a real world sound sounding rocket as an example

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Black_Brant.jpg

Based on that real world design we have the Kerbal version. Although the payload system has changed since the mod first when up. The basics of multiple fins should still work. See original pictures

http://imgur.com/a/XIpOA#0

Edited October 22, 2015 by nobodyhasthis

[Drew Kerman]

although I gave him a response via Rep, since I'm making another post here just wanna say thanks to nobodyhasthis again for the real-world references. Ferram told me to take a better look at real sounding rockets back when I was dealing with the body lift issue and I should have thought to take the same advice for this issue as well! Sometimes I still think I'm playing a game. Wait, it's still a game right? Anyways, the extra fins worked.

Now on to the purpose of this post - Roverdude I'm wondering if you may have any idea why your models aren't showing up via the Sketchfab exporter:

I'd say it was due to Sounding Rockets not being stock but those are AIES solar panels, Infernal Robotics servos, Near Future Construction structural parts and Alchemy Technologies batteries (which hasn't been updated since 0.90). The batteries are on the payload truss and the rocket itself should be hanging on the launch stick attached to the rotatotron

Unfortunately the Sketchfab exporter tool provides no log file :/ A silly oversight for something released as Beta software IMO

[RoverDude]

Sorry, absolutely no idea on that - there's nothing magical about the parts, just basic parts with standard shaders...

[Drew Kerman]

hrmmmmmm... I'll poke the tool dev again to see about a minor release w/logging data. There's also supposed to to be a Smart Parts timer part on the base that isn't showing up. I'll look into this some more when I have time and let you know what I find

[ultrasquid]

I have an idea for this mod: the grid fin's descriptions should have something involving waffles, waffle makers, or waffle factories.

Grid fins are really more like french fry cutters, but I understand the confusion.

[Horus]

Part "SR_Nosecone_625".

Fix part title - "title = Nosecone Parachute (0.35m)" - 0.36m to 0.65m

[RoverDude]

GitHub issue or pull request please

[Drew Kerman]

ok I worked up some plume effects for two Sounding Rockets engines, the 0.35m SRBs:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

These are fully-tweaked effects meant to be run at 100% thrust. There is launch smoke for the lower SRB but it still needs tweaking. I'm using values recently supplied by lextacy but they aren't quite what I'm looking for and until I better understand the parameters I'm not going to be able to fix it.

@PART[SR_Rocket_35_02]:FOR[RealPlume]:NEEDS[SmokeScreen]
{
  %EFFECTS
  {
    %Solid-Lower
    {
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        //Get the inputs from the other config.
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,-0.05
        fixedScale    = 0.25
        name = flare
        modelName = RealPlume/MP_Nazari_FX/KWbooster
        emission = 0.0 0
        emission = 0.01 0.2
        emission = 1.0 2
        speed = 0.0 1
        speed = 1.0 1.5
        offset = 0
        energy = 0.0 0.1
        energy = 1.0 0.1
        size = 0.0 0.6
        size = 1.0 0.6
        fixedEmissions = false
        randomInitalVelocityOffsetMaxRadius = 0.2
      }
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        //Get the inputs from the other config.
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,-.05
        fixedScale    = .2
        energy        = 0.65
        speed         = 1.25
        name = plume
        modelName = RealPlume/MP_Nazari_FX/KWbooster
        fixedEmissions = false
        sizeClamp = 50
        randomInitalVelocityOffsetMaxRadius = 0.2
        randConeEmit
        {
          density = 1 0.1
          density = 0 1
        }
        logGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 1
          density = 0.1 3
          density = 0.0 2
        }
        logGrowScale
        {
          density = 1.0 0.0
          density = 0.8 0.5
          density = 0.46 0.75
          density = 0.2 1
          density = 0.1 2
          density = 0.0 3
        }
        linGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 1
          density = 0.46 1
          density = 0.2 3
          density = 0.05 7
          density = 0.0 7
        }
        speed
        {
          density = 1.0 2
          density = 0.46 2.5
          density = 0.2 2.5
          density = 0.05 3
          density = 0.0 3
        }
        xyForce
        {
          density = 1 0.95
          density = 0.24 0.9
          density = 0.0 1
        }
        emission
        {
          density = 1.0 4.0
          density = 0.8 3.5
          density = 0.2 3.5
          density = 0.1 2.9
          density = 0.05 2.3
          density = 0.0 2.25
          power = 1 1
          power = 0.01 0.2
          power = 0 0
        }
        energy
        {
          density = 1.0 2
          density = 0.3 2
          density = 0.05 0.5
          density = 0.0 0.5
        }
        size
        {
          density = 1.0 0.8
          density = 0.8 0.65
          density = 0.2 0.55
        }
      }
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,-0.05
        fixedScale    = 0.25
        name = smoke
        modelName = RealPlume/MP_Nazari_FX/smokelaunch
        speed = 0.0 3
        speed = 1.0 1
        grow = 0.0 0
        grow = 1.0 0.01
        renderMode = "Billboard"
        collide = false
        collideRatio = 0
        stickiness = 0
        sizeClamp = 100
        angle = 0.0 1.0
        angle = 45.0 1.0
        angle = 50.0 1.0
        distance = 0.0 1.0
        distance = 100.0 1.0
        distance = 110.0 1.0
        logGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 15
          density = 0.1 20
          density = 0.0 2
        }
        logGrowScale
        {
          density = 1.0 1
          density = 0.8 1.5
          density = 0.46 2
          density = 0.2 2
          density = 0.1 2
          density = 0.0 5
        }
        linGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 0
          density = 0.46 0
          density = 0.2 0
          density = 0.05 5
          density = 0.0 10
        }
        emission
        {
          density = 1.0 5.0
          density = 0.05 4
          density = 0.0 0
          power = 1 1
          power = 0.01 0.2
          power = 0 0
        }
        energy
        {
          density = 1.0 5
          density = 0.3 5
          density = 0.05 0.1
          density = 0.0 0.0
        }
        size
        {
          density = 1.0 1
          density = 0.8 1.2
          density = 0.6 2
          density = 0.2 3
          density = 0.0 7
        }
      }
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,-0.5
        fixedScale    = 0.1
        name = slag
        modelName = Squad/FX/SRB_Large
        emission = 0.0 0
        emission = 0.01 0.05
        emission = 1.0 0.2
        speed = 0.0 1
        speed = 1.0 1
        offset = 1
        size = 0.0 0.2
        size = 1.0 0.2
        fixedEmissions = false
        randomInitalVelocityOffsetMaxRadius = 0.2
        randConeEmit
        {
          density = 1 0.4
          density = 0.5 0.8
          density = 0.1 1
          density = 0 1
        }
        xyForce
        {
          density = 1 0.9
          density = 0.35 0.93
          density = 0.0 1
        }
        energy
        {
          density = 1.0 6
          density = 0.3 5
          density = 0.05 2
          density = 0.0 1.5
        }
      }
    }
  }

  @MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
  {
    @name = ModuleEnginesFX
    %powerEffectName = Solid-Lower
  }

  MODULE
  {
    name = ModuleSurfaceFX
    thrustProviderModuleIndex = 0
    fxMax = 50
    maxDistance = 500
    falloff = 12
    thrustTransformName = ThrustTransform
  }
}

@PART[SR_Rocket_35_01]:FOR[RealPlume]:NEEDS[SmokeScreen]
{
  %EFFECTS
  {
    %Solid-Upper
    {
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,-0.05
        fixedScale    = 0.23
        name = flare
        modelName = RealPlume/MP_Nazari_FX/KWbooster
        emission = 0.0 0
        emission = 0.01 0.2
        emission = 1.0 2
        speed = 0.0 1
        speed = 1.0 1
        offset = 0
        energy = 0.0 0.1
        energy = 1.0 0.1
        size = 0.0 0.6
        size = 1.0 0.6
        fixedEmissions = false
        randomInitalVelocityOffsetMaxRadius = 0.2
      }
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,0
        fixedScale    = 0.2
        energy        = 0.35
        speed         = 1.25
        name = plume
        modelName = RealPlume/MP_Nazari_FX/KWbooster
        fixedEmissions = false
        sizeClamp = 50
        randomInitalVelocityOffsetMaxRadius = 0.2
        randConeEmit
        {
          density = 1 0.4
          density = 0 1
        }
        logGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 2
          density = 0.1 3
          density = 0.0 2
        }
        logGrowScale
        {
          density = 1.0 0.0
          density = 0.8 1.5
          density = 0.46 2
          density = 0.2 2
          density = 0.1 2
          density = 0.0 5
        }
        linGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 1
          density = 0.46 1
          density = 0.2 3
          density = 0.05 7
          density = 0.0 7
        }
        speed
        {
          density = 1.0 2
          density = 0.46 2.5
          density = 0.2 2.5
          density = 0.05 3
          density = 0.0 3
        }
        xyForce
        {
          density = 1 0.95
          density = 0.24 0.9
          density = 0.0 1
        }
        emission
        {
          density = 1.0 4.0
          density = 0.8 3.5
          density = 0.2 3.5
          density = 0.1 2.9
          density = 0.05 2.3
          density = 0.0 2.25
          power = 1 1
          power = 0.01 0.2
          power = 0 0
        }
        energy
        {
          density = 1.0 2
          density = 0.3 2
          density = 0.05 0.5
          density = 0.0 0.5
        }
        size
        {
          density = 1.0 0.8
          density = 0.8 0.65
          density = 0.2 0.55
        }
      }
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        //Get the inputs from the other config.
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,-3
        fixedScale    = 0.13
        name = smoke
        modelName = RealPlume/MP_Nazari_FX/smokelaunch
        speed = 0.0 0
        speed = 1.0 1
        grow = 0.0 0
        grow = 1.0 0.01
        renderMode = "Billboard"
        collide = false
        collideRatio = 0
        sizeClamp = 1000
        angle = 0.0 1.0
        angle = 45.0 1.0
        angle = 50.0 1.0
        distance = 0.0 1.0
        distance = 100.0 1.0
        distance = 110.0 1.0
        logGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 15
          density = 0.1 20
          density = 0.0 2
        }
        logGrowScale
        {
          density = 1.0 1
          density = 0.8 1.5
          density = 0.46 2
          density = 0.2 2
          density = 0.1 2
          density = 0.0 5
        }
        linGrow
        {
          density = 1.0 0
          density = 0.46 0
          density = 0.2 0
          density = 0.05 5
          density = 0.0 10
        }
        emission
        {
          density = 1.0 5.0
          density = 0.05 4
          density = 0.0 0
          power = 1 1
          power = 0.01 0.2
          power = 0 0
        }
        energy
        {
          density = 1.0 5
          density = 0.3 5
          density = 0.05 0.1
          density = 0.0 0.0
        }
        size
        {
          density = 1.0 1
          density = 0.8 1.2
          density = 0.6 2
          density = 0.2 3
          density = 0.0 7
        }
      }
      MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE_PERSIST
      {
        //Get the inputs from the other config.
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        localPosition = 0,0,-0.1
        fixedScale    = 0.1
        name = slag
        modelName = Squad/FX/SRB_Large
        emission = 0.0 0
        emission = 0.01 0.05
        emission = 1.0 0.2
        speed = 0.0 1
        speed = 1.0 1
        offset = 1
        size = 0.0 0.2
        size = 1.0 0.2
        fixedEmissions = false
        randomInitalVelocityOffsetMaxRadius = 0.2
        randConeEmit
        {
          density = 1 0.4
          density = 0.5 0.8
          density = 0.1 1
          density = 0 1
        }
        xyForce
        {
          density = 1 0.9
          density = 0.35 0.93
          density = 0.0 1
        }
        energy
        {
          density = 1.0 6
          density = 0.3 5
          density = 0.05 2
          density = 0.0 1.5
        }
      }
    }
  }

  @MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
  {
    @name = ModuleEnginesFX
    %powerEffectName = Solid-Upper
  }
}

[Drew Kerman]

Also, Roverdude I took some time to look into the sketchfab exporter issue just now and studying the other directories being used the only difference I could see was your folder structure. I didn't edit the cfg files just dumped all the assets into the parts folder and this is the result:

So yea, purely on the exporter's side of things making assumptions about folder structure. It'll also need to be updated to allow for hiding engine fairings and such... hopefully the sketchfab devs can get around to it soon but you're in the clear at least

[RoverDude]

0.3.1.0 IS UP

0.3.1 - 2015.11.09

------------------

KSP 1.0.5 compatibility

Fixed description of 0.625 nose cone

Fixed attachment nodes

Bulkhead profile updates

Updated Filter Extensions config

[KerbMav]

Purely anecdotal: Had some funny issues yesterday (before patch 1.0.5 b102x+ in the night (here)).

The first sounding rocket that hit water would vanish, move the camera first to the bottom of the ocean and than fly away from Kerbin - was still able to return to space center and revert, so no real game breaker.

Another one, well above 30km or so during ascent, would start whirling around its center (heightwise) and everything but the UI wobbled really fast until the rocket finally crashed back on Kerbin.

After the hotfix I could not see any more problems.

Feals funny to still launch fireworks while already being able to build crew capsules though.

[Kagame]

True that- Sounding Rockets! really works better with SETIctt.

[KerbMav]

Hm, somehow it feels like cheating, when I do this ... the control part for the sounding rockets can be glued to any other rocket to gain access to basic SAS ...

[goldenpsp]

Hm, somehow it feels like cheating, when I do this ... the control part for the sounding rockets can be glued to any other rocket to gain access to basic SAS ...

Well if it bothers you, simply don't use it that way?

[MoeKitsune]

Will the newest version work in my 1.0.4 game?

[RoverDude]

Unsure, let us know