RoverDude

[1.3] Sounding Rockets! Start small. Dream big! [0.5.0]

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not sure if i'm missing something, but is there a liquid fuel engine for the bigger sounding rocket ? or do you use one of the 'real' rocket engines ?

I can see the small aerospike engine, for the smaller sounding rocket fuel tank, but I'm not seeing a corresponding one for the larger one ?

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Sorry if my post sounded mean.

I do understand that SR meant to be fragile. The problem is that they're TOO fragile - and KSP's collision model simply does not work well with such low crash tolerances. I did a couple of tests - launch and land at KSC's field. In one launch, payload landed intact. The next launch - the same rocket with the same payload - was fatal. Its survival depends on collision model's current mood - in other words, it's random. Putting the experiments on the top is not a solution - it's simply a way to circumvent the collision model's glitches. Any KSP newbie who doesn't know about such quirks would correctly assume that the truss (with its relatively high crash tolerance) would protect the experiment - no matter where it was placed. This is what I call "pseudo-hardcore" - player's actions has absolutely no effect on the overall outcome. If you're lucky, you'll succeed; if not, you will fail, no matter what. The only thing you can do is use some exploits - in other words, cheat. And if player has to cheat in order to play the game, it indicates that something is wrong with its design.

Now, the water. Many real-life test ranges (Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg comes to mind) are located on shores - in order to fire rockets towards the ocean. It would be obvious for any newcomer to attempt such launch - but he or she wouldn't succeed. It's simply impossible to do that - crash tolerance is absurdly low. Even a simple slope landing can be fatal - you landed it intact, it tipped over and boom, your science goes down the drain. Packing another truss or additional chutes, as it was already stated, is a no-go. It's simply against all logic - if the lightest payload (avionics + experiment + battery) can fit to one truss, why would I use two? And why would I use an extra chute if a single nosecone chute gives me around 6-7 m\s ASL landing speed - which is well below truss' crash tolerance?

There is nothing wrong with sticks (they're awesome, actually!) and overall "hard to use" nature of SR. Hell, this is maybe the only mod that makes you actually learn the ballistics in order to put your payload where you want it. Its only flaw is these ridiculously low crash tolerances - and this is not something that cannot be easily fixed.

For the water, Ferram actually fixed most of the issues with this mod: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/105094-0-90-Better-Buoyancy-v1-1-Simple-Water-Fixes-1-19-14

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Sounding rockets don't seem to trigger the requirements for vessels in contracts. I just started a career game with sounding rockets, and still haven't gotten the first launch contract complete.

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not sure if i'm missing something, but is there a liquid fuel engine for the bigger sounding rocket ? or do you use one of the 'real' rocket engines ?

I can see the small aerospike engine, for the smaller sounding rocket fuel tank, but I'm not seeing a corresponding one for the larger one ?

Nope, use the stock 0.625m engine

Sounding rockets don't seem to trigger the requirements for vessels in contracts. I just started a career game with sounding rockets, and still haven't gotten the first launch contract complete.

First Launch requires a Kerbal (and IMO rightfully so)

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But for other contracts I don't need a kerbal?

I'm asking this because there's a contract for a vessel to exit the atmosphere in three in-game days, and what with KCT I can only make a sounding rocket capable of that in time.

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But for other contracts I don't need a kerbal?

I'm asking this because there's a contract for a vessel to exit the atmosphere in three in-game days, and what with KCT I can only make a sounding rocket capable of that in time.

I'm pretty certain that's just the deadline to accept the contract, since "Escape the atmosphere" is a World Firsts contract, which don't have a deadline once accepted.

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Just a little note, although i came here because of thelow crash tolerance, I can't help but notice that the first post is about an entirely different mod than what i have here...

Stack experiments ? Brilliant!

Edited by Mokmo

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I'm pretty certain that's just the deadline to accept the contract, since "Escape the atmosphere" is a World Firsts contract, which don't have a deadline once accepted.

It does for me. Strange.

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I really like this mod when I realized what it was for. I felt like I was making little model rockets! I actually giggled as I built them and launched them. Thanks for the mod, it is quite fun. I am curious as to some of the possibilities of blending it with full scale things. Such as using Kerbal Inventory System and building a sounding rocket experiment on Duna or Mun. :D

Mostly, it was the "they're so LITTLE!!!" and then giggling that made me love this mod.

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Thisss is pretty, gave a whole lot of love to start a new career full of options and love.

They're also useful for better looking side rockets for the early stages and maybe a lot of other stuff.

By the way, have you thought about including realchutes compatibility? I might try to do some MM cfg tomorrow, comparing between stock and changed stock parts.

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But for other contracts I don't need a kerbal?

I'm asking this because there's a contract for a vessel to exit the atmosphere in three in-game days, and what with KCT I can only make a sounding rocket capable of that in time.

Not sure if ones beyond first launch require a Kerbal - that's a KSP thing not an SR thing

Just a little note, although i came here because of thelow crash tolerance, I can't help but notice that the first post is about an entirely different mod than what i have here...

Stack experiments ? Brilliant!

Those got deprecated in favor of the truss and assembly model (which I find a lot more fun!)

I really like this mod when I realized what it was for. I felt like I was making little model rockets! I actually giggled as I built them and launched them. Thanks for the mod, it is quite fun. I am curious as to some of the possibilities of blending it with full scale things. Such as using Kerbal Inventory System and building a sounding rocket experiment on Duna or Mun. :D

Mostly, it was the "they're so LITTLE!!!" and then giggling that made me love this mod.

Yep, I have plans on fiddling with this with KIS :)

Thisss is pretty, gave a whole lot of love to start a new career full of options and love.

They're also useful for better looking side rockets for the early stages and maybe a lot of other stuff.

By the way, have you thought about including realchutes compatibility? I might try to do some MM cfg tomorrow, comparing between stock and changed stock parts.

Yep I use them for lots of things. Will also add a few new parts as time allows. Re RealChutes - I take pull requests :)

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Noticeable issue that chutes tend to point down at the first stage, only flipping when fully deployed.

I've a custom for sounding rocket's chutes to be realchute compatible:

// Module Manager configuration to replace sounding rockets chute with realchutes.

@PART[SR_NoseCone_35]:FOR[RealChute]
{

@category = none
@mass = 0.02
!sound_parachute_open
!sound_parachute_single

!MODULE[ModuleParachute]{}

MODULE
{
name = RealChuteModule
caseMass = 0.02
timer = 0
mustGoDown = false
cutSpeed = 0.5
spareChutes = 1

PARACHUTE
{
material = Nylon
preDeployedDiameter = 1
deployedDiameter = 20
minIsPressure = true
minPressure = 0.01
deploymentAlt = 600
cutAlt = -1
preDeploymentSpeed = 1
deploymentSpeed = 4
preDeploymentAnimation = semiDeploySmall
deploymentAnimation = fullyDeploySmall
parachuteName = canopy
capName = cap
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ProceduralChute
textureLibrary = StockReplacement
currentCanopies = Main chute
}

EFFECTS
{
rcpredeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_open
volume = 1
}
}

rcdeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_single
volume = 1
}
}

rccut
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_cut
volume = 1
}
}

rcrepack
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_repack
volume = 1
}
}
}
}

@PART[SR_NoseCone_625]:FOR[RealChute]
{

@category = none
@mass = 0.04
!sound_parachute_open
!sound_parachute_single

!MODULE[ModuleParachute]{}

MODULE
{
name = RealChuteModule
caseMass = 0.04
timer = 0
mustGoDown = false
cutSpeed = 0.5
spareChutes = 1

PARACHUTE
{
material = Nylon
preDeployedDiameter = 1
deployedDiameter = 20
minIsPressure = true
minPressure = 0.01
deploymentAlt = 600
cutAlt = -1
preDeploymentSpeed = 1
deploymentSpeed = 4
preDeploymentAnimation = semiDeploySmall
deploymentAnimation = fullyDeploySmall
parachuteName = canopy
capName = cap
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ProceduralChute
textureLibrary = StockReplacement
currentCanopies = Main chute
}

EFFECTS
{
rcpredeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_open
volume = 1
}
}

rcdeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_single
volume = 1
}
}

rccut
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_cut
volume = 1
}
}

rcrepack
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_repack
volume = 1
}
}
}
}

@PART[SR_PackChute_35]:FOR[RealChute]
{

@category = none
@mass = 0.02
!sound_parachute_open
!sound_parachute_single

!MODULE[ModuleParachute]{}

MODULE
{
name = RealChuteModule
caseMass = 0.02
timer = 0
mustGoDown = false
cutSpeed = 0.5
spareChutes = 1

PARACHUTE
{
material = Nylon
preDeployedDiameter = 1
deployedDiameter = 16
minIsPressure = true
minPressure = 0.01
deploymentAlt = 600
cutAlt = -1
preDeploymentSpeed = 1
deploymentSpeed = 4
preDeploymentAnimation = semiDeploySmall
deploymentAnimation = fullyDeploySmall
parachuteName = canopy
capName = cap
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ProceduralChute
textureLibrary = StockReplacement
currentCanopies = Main chute
}

EFFECTS
{
rcpredeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_open
volume = 1
}
}

rcdeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_single
volume = 1
}
}

rccut
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_cut
volume = 1
}
}

rcrepack
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_repack
volume = 1
}
}
}
}

This was a matter of simply copying over from stock replacement cfg for realchutes. ModuleManager required.

Minor changes have been made, let me know what you think.

Btw, noticed all of the mod's parts are missing entry purchase costs.

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Looking for advice--In 0.90, I was able to build a simple sounding rocket that could easily reach 70km, using the biggest SR as the 1st stage, medium as 2nd, and smallest as the 3rd. I'd have medium fins as close to the bottom of the 1st stage, slightly rotated so the rocket would spin for stability. But now in 1.0's new aero model, I can't get this to work because halfway through the 1st stage burn, the rocket tips over and all is lost.

I know that the reason for this is that the center of mass is really low on the rocket and so the tip being so high up results in the slightest sideways tilt knocking the whole thing silly when it gets up to speed. But if I lower the thrust modifier so it doesn't accelerate to that speed so fast, it doesn't spin enough to gain stability and falls over anyway.

How are you guys dealing with this in your designs?

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Looking for advice--In 0.90, I was able to build a simple sounding rocket that could easily reach 70km, using the biggest SR as the 1st stage, medium as 2nd, and smallest as the 3rd. I'd have medium fins as close to the bottom of the 1st stage, slightly rotated so the rocket would spin for stability. But now in 1.0's new aero model, I can't get this to work because halfway through the 1st stage burn, the rocket tips over and all is lost.

How are you guys dealing with this in your designs?

Currently I didn't go that far, but putting additional fins in the upper stage I think will help. Don't know if spinning should really help a lot though, maybe try to keep the straight first.

Do you have control on the rocket? With new aero, you should never go to far from your speed vector.

----------------

About the real chute, I've properly added the module manager config, and it seems ok, even completely copying over from what stock is. However I can't get it to work,

For some reason its throwing and exceptions of SR chutes, the gui doesn't show up properly and the chute doesn't appear on the stage list.

Exception:

[EXC 15:09:18.376] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
RealChute.Parachute.Initialize ()
RealChute.RealChuteModule.<OnStart>b__26 (RealChute.Parachute p)
System.Collections.Generic.List`1[RealChute.Parachute].ForEach (System.Action`1 action)
RealChute.RealChuteModule.OnStart (StartState state)
Part.ModulesOnStart ()
Part+.MoveNext ()
[LOG 15:09:19.613] SR.Nosecone.625 added to ship - part count: 2
[LOG 15:09:21.659] deleting part SR.Nosecone.625
[EXC 15:09:22.328] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
RealChute.Parachute.Initialize ()
RealChute.RealChuteModule.<OnStart>b__26 (RealChute.Parachute p)
System.Collections.Generic.List`1[RealChute.Parachute].ForEach (System.Action`1 action)
RealChute.RealChuteModule.OnStart (StartState state)
Part.ModulesOnStart ()
Part+.MoveNext ()
[EXC 15:09:22.350] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
RealChute.EditorGUI.RenderGUI ()
RealChute.ProceduralChute.OnGUI ()

the MM cfg:

@PART[SR_Nosecone_35]:FOR[RealChute]
{

maximum_drag = 0.32
@category = none
@mass = 0.04
!sound_parachute_open
!sound_parachute_single

!MODULE[ModuleParachute]{}

MODULE
{
name = RealChuteModule
caseMass = 0.04
timer = 0
mustGoDown = false
cutSpeed = 0.5
spareChutes = 5

PARACHUTE
{
material = Nylon
preDeployedDiameter = 1
deployedDiameter = 25
minIsPressure = true
minPressure = 0.01
deploymentAlt = 700
cutAlt = -1
preDeploymentSpeed = 2
deploymentSpeed = 6
preDeploymentAnimation = semiDeploySmall
deploymentAnimation = fullyDeploySmall
parachuteName = canopy
capName = cap
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ProceduralChute
textureLibrary = StockReplacement
currentCanopies = Main chute
}

EFFECTS
{
rcpredeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_open
volume = 1
}
}

rcdeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_single
volume = 1
}
}

rccut
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_cut
volume = 1
}
}

rcrepack
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_repack
volume = 1
}
}
}
}

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putting additional fins in the upper stage I think will help. Don't know if spinning should really help a lot though, maybe try to keep the straight first.

Do you have control on the rocket? With new aero, you should never go to far from your speed vector.

The spinning is to keep an off-center CoM from tilting the rocket to one side, since it's practically impossible to balance these perfectly.

And no, I really have no control besides staging and activating experiments because there's no SAS or control surfaces that fit the sounding rockets early in the tech tree, and that really doesn't seem like the point of a sounding rocket anyway; these are cheap, low-tech rockets that you use before you have easy access to better things.

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Those got deprecated in favor of the truss and assembly model (which I find a lot more fun!)

Any consideration for making a track to stick inside of the stock compartments? Those are just asking for a sounding rocket part =)

Yep I use them for lots of things. Will also add a few new parts as time allows. Re RealChutes - I take pull requests :)

This has been the choice prob core for the early tier stuff, as I haven't been able to unlock a good one (yet). I like the tradeoff of having to use more parts to get the core in a usable state versus one part and it's done, which is balanced as you need ~5 parts for most cores using the truss system, which is a decent chunk at a cap of 30.

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A couple of observations:

- some of the models could use a re-work, fins better shaped, parachute and whatnots

- it seems now to be reallly harder to get into orbit, lower atmosphere is really adding up, and it took a real big rocket to get sub-orbital, I still didn't get orbital.

- the boosters seem to be way more efficient than stock ones, at the same time I think those have been heavily nerfed, making then even more obsolete...

- there's an auto-decouple feature in the boosters, at the same time I like this for its usefulness, I also dislike when trying to keep things together.

- I think there should be a re-word of the part parameters, I've saw a couple parts only and there were duplicated entries

- are we sure the aerodynamics are working properly, for example, is the nose cone properly efficient?

How are you guys dealing with the aero-thermo changes? I'm struggling to get into orbit and that's with the VAB already upgraded, now I have to upgrade the Launchpad too, which is crazy without the ability to complete contracts...

I've made a patch for Realchute compatibility, Seems to be all working properly now, with some help of stupid chris. Just copy the text below and apply to a custom .cfg file.

All seems to be working except the model for the .350 nosecone, the chute get visually duplicated, the real one moving, and another one static to the craft, mirroring the real one.


@PART[SR_Nosecone_35]:FOR[RealChute]
{

@category = none
@mass = 0.02
!sound_parachute_open
!sound_parachute_single

!MODULE[ModuleParachute]{}

MODULE
{
name = RealChuteModule
caseMass = 0.02
timer = 0
mustGoDown = true
cutSpeed = 0.5
spareChutes = 1

PARACHUTE
{
material = Nylon
preDeployedDiameter = 0.8
deployedDiameter = 14
minIsPressure = false
minPressure = 6000
deploymentAlt = 600
cutAlt = -1
preDeploymentSpeed = 1
deploymentSpeed = 4
preDeploymentAnimation = PreDeploy
deploymentAnimation = Deploy
parachuteName = String
capName = Cap
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ProceduralChute
}

EFFECTS
{
rcpredeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_open
volume = 1
}
}

rcdeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_single
volume = 1
}
}

rccut
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_cut
volume = 1
}
}

rcrepack
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_repack
volume = 1
}
}
}
}

@PART[SR_Nosecone_625]:FOR[RealChute]
{

@category = none
@mass = 0.04
!sound_parachute_open
!sound_parachute_single

!MODULE[ModuleParachute]{}

MODULE
{
name = RealChuteModule
caseMass = 0.04
timer = 0
mustGoDown = true
cutSpeed = 0.5
spareChutes = 1

PARACHUTE
{
material = Nylon
preDeployedDiameter = 1
deployedDiameter = 18
minIsPressure = false
minPressure = 8000
deploymentAlt = 600
cutAlt = -1
preDeploymentSpeed = 1
deploymentSpeed = 6
preDeploymentAnimation = PreDeploy
deploymentAnimation = Deploy
parachuteName = String
capName = Cap
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ProceduralChute
}

EFFECTS
{
rcpredeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_open
volume = 1
}
}

rcdeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_single
volume = 1
}
}

rccut
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_cut
volume = 1
}
}

rcrepack
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_repack
volume = 1
}
}
}
}

@PART[SR_PackChute_35]:FOR[RealChute]
{

@category = none
@mass = 0.02
!sound_parachute_open
!sound_parachute_single

!MODULE[ModuleParachute]{}

MODULE
{
name = RealChuteModule
caseMass = 0.02
timer = 0
mustGoDown = true
cutSpeed = 0.5
spareChutes = 1

PARACHUTE
{
material = Nylon
preDeployedDiameter = 0.8
deployedDiameter = 14
minIsPressure = false
minPressure = 6000
deploymentAlt = 600
cutAlt = -1
preDeploymentSpeed = 1
deploymentSpeed = 4
preDeploymentAnimation = PreDeploy
deploymentAnimation = Deploy
parachuteName = String
capName = Pack
}
}

MODULE
{
name = ProceduralChute
}

EFFECTS
{
rcpredeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_open
volume = 1
}
}

rcdeploy
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = sound_parachute_single
volume = 1
}
}

rccut
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_cut
volume = 1
}
}

rcrepack
{
AUDIO
{
channel = Ship
clip = RealChute/Sounds/sound_parachute_repack
volume = 1
}
}
}
}

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- some of the models could use a re-work, fins better shaped, parachute and whatnots

Personally I think the models are excellent. They are supposed to look like my model rockets from my youth in my opinion.

it seems now to be reallly harder to get into orbit, lower atmosphere is really adding up, and it took a real big rocket to get sub-orbital, I still didn't get orbital.

Orbit? I don't think I have ever used sounding rockets for orbital tasks.

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Do these rockets have better perfomance in the new stock aero?

Great mod BTW

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Orbit? I don't think I have ever used sounding rockets for orbital tasks.

The fuel tanks are actually quite heavy compared to stock tanks of equivalent fuel mass. I think one of them is about 3 times heavier. I can't check at the moment. Not an easy task to get to orbit.

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Personally I think the models are excellent. They are supposed to look like my model rockets from my youth in my opinion.

Orbit? I don't think I have ever used sounding rockets for orbital tasks.

some of the models are quite ok, my concern is mostly with the square fins and the chute issue.

The fuel tanks are actually quite heavy compared to stock tanks of equivalent fuel mass. I think one of them is about 3 times heavier. I can't check at the moment. Not an easy task to get to orbit.

hmmm haven't checked that though, but just to be clear, I was only comparing the solid rocket boosters.

Do these rockets have better perfomance in the new stock aero?

Great mod BTW

Answering the orbit one as well. Not only it seems to be quite harder to get sounding rockets very far, but also stock rockets are way harder to get into orbit.

Getting a small, more efficient sounding rocket in space to test out, is a good way to get by in the early game without breaching the 18t limit of the launchpad.

Right now it seems they can't get very far, not even past the west mountains. This is by no means a SR issue, but rather a whole stock missbalance.

Before the 1.0.2 patch I could get into orbit with 3000dV or less, now I can't get it up there even with a 3500dV rocket.

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Regarding sounding rocket fins (the square ones):

CPM%20TV%20V%20East%20NO%202.jpg

Regarding orbit - these are not meant to be orbital ;) You'll get plenty of science the first go around to get you deeper into the tech tree. Auto-decouple is by design for the SRBs. The stack separator is for the LFO rockets (usually with the little aerospike)

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Haha, nice example, thats not what I meant though, its just getting then thiner on the edges. I just went there and checked that it was indeed pretty good, sorry.

Like I've said, I both like that they auto decouple (nice feature I didn't know existed), but at the same time also dislike and made a custom patch.

Why you ask? Only so I can strap a couple of them radially and placing the nosecone chutes on them, helps get a little more boost and makes the stage recoverable. which not be possible if the whole thing fell apart.

Which is really useful not only for sounding rockets, but allows for more flexibility.

Edited by Gfurst

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