Kerbals Should Level Up In-Flight (Not Only Upon Recovery)

[arkie87]

Basically what title says: Kerbals should level up as soon as they gain enough XP, not only upon being recovered. Otherwise, I have to bring them back home before I get any of the XP benefits of what they did...

[Anquietas314]

I agree, but to play devil's advocate, that would mean you don't need to bring them back

[Jouni]

I like the current mechanism better. People don't really learn from experience as much as from reflecting on the experiences and from unconscious processes after they've had a chance to relax.

[Anquietas314]

People don't really learn from experience as much as from reflecting on the experiences and from unconscious processes after they've had a chance to relax.

Well, okay, but remember that most of the things you need to do to get experience take at least a day's worth of travel (going to Mun/Minmus/...). Surely the Kerbonauts would have time to reflect while they're sitting in the ship in timewarp?

[arkie87]

Well, okay, but remember that most of the things you need to do to get experience take at least a day's worth of travel (going to Mun/Minmus/...). Surely the Kerbonauts would have time to reflect while they're sitting in the ship in timewarp?

You could send them to jool, do loads of science, get into orbit around and land on each and every moon, and they dont gain experience until you bring them back to Kerbin???

[Anquietas314]

You could send them to jool, do loads of science, get into orbit around and land on each and every moon, and they dont gain experience until you bring them back to Kerbin???

Er, read what I was quoting in that post

[sal_vager]

This would be a great new use for the mobile lab, sufficiently experienced Kerbals could spend some time browsing Kreddit, er I mean, doing some online courses to improve their skills

[Anquietas314]

This would be a great new use for the mobile lab, sufficiently experienced Kerbals could spend some time browsing Kreddit, er I mean, doing some online courses to improve their skills

I'd be interested to know how these Kerbals could browse Kreddit out at Jool/Eeloo with the couple-minute signal delays But sure, another use for the lab would be good

[arkie87]

I agree, but to play devil's advocate, that would mean you don't need to bring them back

If the player cannot bring them back i.e. they die prematurely (and tragically), then who cares if he/she can level them up?

[arkie87]

Er, read what I was quoting in that post

I was supporting you, against the guy you quoted

[Anquietas314]

If the player cannot bring them back i.e. they die prematurely (and tragically), then who cares if he/she can level them up?

I meant you could send them to e.g. Eve, and not care about returning them home for their experience reward (assuming you had something for them to do on Eve that required that experience)

EDIT:

I was supporting you, against the guy you quoted

Then you'd be better off quoting the other guy

Edited December 28, 2014 by armagheddonsgw

[CaptainKipard]

I'd like this. It would make permanent station inhabitants viable.

[sumghai]

I'm definitely keen to see this as well, echoing Cpt. Kipard's sentiments.

[arkie87]

I'd like this. It would make permanent station inhabitants viable.

Yeah, basically, the game tells you to put a base on a planet/moon. But unless you bring those kerbals back, they will remain noobs forever....

[Anquietas314]

Yeah, basically, the game tells you to put a base on a planet/moon.

Remember you don't need to send the Kerbals, just the base

[Tuareg]

I like the current mechanism better. People don't really learn from experience as much as from reflecting on the experiences and from unconscious processes after they've had a chance to relax.

so u say if somebody on a long mission he doesnt learn anything until the end of mission? ermmm

[Brotoro]

I have kerbals that have spent years exploring the Jool system (with plenty of break time in there)...and they wouldn't improve their skills until returning to Kerbin? This seems like a bad idea.

[thereaverofdarkness]

I like the current mechanism better. People don't really learn from experience as much as from reflecting on the experiences and from unconscious processes after they've had a chance to relax.

I have to disagree with this. Most learning is done on the spot, and the most prepared you are for the day's problems is at the end of the day. Rest gets your body back to the shape you need, so bringing the Kerbals back home to deliver experience would make sense if it was physical training, but it's not. And furthermore, a new player who doesn't understand how experience works is going to eventually assume the Kerbals will never gain any and just send untrained Kerbals out on missions. By the time a new player successfully brings one back from anywhere, they will have grown so used to untrained crew it'll feel like a game update made it possible to train them. And finally, those of us who understand how training works are just going to send out useless missions initially for the purpose of training so that we can send the same Kerbals out to the same place but with experience for the real mission.

[Jouni]

I have to disagree with this. Most learning is done on the spot, and the most prepared you are for the day's problems is at the end of the day. Rest gets your body back to the shape you need, so bringing the Kerbals back home to deliver experience would make sense if it was physical training, but it's not.

There's a difference between a technical ability that can be learned quickly, and the deep expertise that only accumulates over time. As kerbal experience is more about expertise than technical ability (we don't see a kerbal's piloting skill increase from 71% to 72% after successfully completing a transfer burn), it only makes sense that a kerbal advances to a new level only after he has completed the task at hand and returned to a home base. For a level 0 kerbal, it would mean returning to the safety of Kerbin. At level 1, a permanent LKO station would be safe and comfortable enough. At higher levels, even more distant stations, bases, and ships could serve as home bases.

And finally, those of us who understand how training works are just going to send out useless missions initially for the purpose of training so that we can send the same Kerbals out to the same place but with experience for the real mission.

Assigning rookie kerbals to routine missions makes sense. To avoid excessive grinding, the game could include training facilities and automatic resupply missions for gaining the first level or two.

[thereaverofdarkness]

There's a difference between a technical ability that can be learned quickly, and the deep expertise that only accumulates over time.

I don't see that distinction and I hate to just blatantly disagree with you on this but my experience tells me otherwise. Sure there is some degree to which you can sort things out in your head and continue to develop skills you gained in the field while you are resting or on vacation, but generally speaking, people come back from vacation less skilled than they were when they left.

And besides, it's not very sensible to force Kerbals to return to Kerbin to get rest, even if you're going to force them to get rest to accumulate experience. They should be fully capable of resting while they're out on a mission. If you feel they should be forced to rest, then they should accrue rest while sitting in a capsule or personnel storage unit for an extended period of time. Returning home could give them instant rest, but it should definitely not be the only way for them to rest.

[Jouni]

I don't see that distinction and I hate to just blatantly disagree with you on this but my experience tells me otherwise. Sure there is some degree to which you can sort things out in your head and continue to develop skills you gained in the field while you are resting or on vacation, but generally speaking, people come back from vacation less skilled than they were when they left.

Technical skills are those that help you perform better in an exam or on the next day in the field. Deep expertise is the skills you have 10 years later. You can learn a lot superficially in a very short time, but retaining that knowledge requires an entirely different approach to learning.

There is also a difference between learning routine things and difficult things. Back when I was an undergrad at the university, one of my friends had a nice observation on the differences between the hard classes in medicine and in computer science and mathematics. If you didn't understand something in medicine, you just had to work harder. In computer science and mathematics, you rarely had to work hard, but even hard work didn't help you past a certain point. If you still didn't understand something, it was often better just to drop the class, go drink beer, and try again next year. With some luck, your brain had processed a lot of stuff during that year, making the things that used to be hard easier. Essentially, while the hard classes in medicine were grindy, the hard classes in computer science and mathematics were difficult.

Then there is one of the oldest clichés in war stories. When there are inexperienced guys in the same unit as veterans, everyone considers them the new guys, even after they've proven themselves in combat. No matter what they do and what they experience, their status remains the same. They get their status upgrade only after the unit gets new reinforcements of even greener recruits. (Things like this are actually quite common in all human groups and societies, not just in the military.)

Besides, instant gratification experience points are just bad game design.

[pandaman]

Maybe the answer lies in the middle. On return all X take effect as now. In flight the effect is reduced or delayed.

Eg. if you gain enough xp in flight to raise 2 levels you go up 1 immediately and have to wait for the second until you reach the xp for level 3. Or apply a time delay before levelling up that gets overridden on return to kerbin.

Just an idea and I don't know if it would be easy to implement, but it would mean you would gain some benefit from training a new guy up en-route.

[Renegrade]

Technical skills are those that help you perform better in an exam or on the next day in the field. Deep expertise is the skills you have 10 years later. You can learn a lot superficially in a very short time, but retaining that knowledge requires an entirely different approach to learning.

I've had Jeb, Bill, Bob, and the randomly generated scientist (Allison Kerman) in orbit of Duna (and Ike) for the last two k-years. While I totally agree that it takes some time for real, deep expertise to sink in, I'd have to say that they'd already have SOMETHING by now. They've had time to relax, soak in the universe, watch Duna and Ike rotating beneath them, wonder why Mission Control hasn't contacted them since that last "plant a flag on Ike" mission 212 Kerbin days ago...

(Actually, I don't know the exact date of the last plant-a-flag-on-Ike contract, that's a guess. I've been warping heavily since then, avoiding that 'surface outpost on Gilly' that keeps on coming up, while I complete Explore Planet X contracts in various places)

Besides, instant gratification experience points are just bad game design.

Eh? In what way? Normally "instant gratification" is opposed to progression, but we already have a fair deal of progression going on here, and giving instant experience points and leveling would do little to remove that. It's not like you need a 5-star pilot to land on Eve or anything..

[Jouni]

I've had Jeb, Bill, Bob, and the randomly generated scientist (Allison Kerman) in orbit of Duna (and Ike) for the last two k-years. While I totally agree that it takes some time for real, deep expertise to sink in, I'd have to say that they'd already have SOMETHING by now. They've had time to relax, soak in the universe, watch Duna and Ike rotating beneath them, wonder why Mission Control hasn't contacted them since that last "plant a flag on Ike" mission 212 Kerbin days ago...

They've become quite competent in living in an isolated tin can without trying to do anything even remotely challenging. Jeb can now recite all the lines from Game of Thrones seasons 2 and 3 from memory. Bill has become quite productive in writing mediocre poetry. Bob has had some novel insights into the nature of boredom during the last few weeks. Allison has become convinced that there is a vampire hibernating outside the ship, and the airlocks must be sealed permanently to keep it out.

The current "complete a mission and return home for debriefing and a reward" is a good game mechanic, if you try to run your space program in a reasonable way. Later in the game, the home could be any permanent colony you have established, assuming that the game somehow distinguishes real colonies from ordinary bases and stations.

Eh? In what way? Normally "instant gratification" is opposed to progression, but we already have a fair deal of progression going on here, and giving instant experience points and leveling would do little to remove that. It's not like you need a 5-star pilot to land on Eve or anything..

I'm referring to the game design style, where the player is being soaked in a constant stream of experience points, achievements, loot, bonus points, trophies, and other rewards. It's main use is to make the game more addictive, as it usually doesn't affect how interesting or fun the game is.

[Rolanvorxariat]

Kerbals should gain some experience on the go,as my mun base kerbals should, and some more experience when they get back. This makes it possible for kerbals to level up, but encourages bringing them back.