Disappointed with Squad's development paradigm

[Derfel]

KSP isn't a game, it's a toy. Play with it for a few hours, don't achieve much, still have fun. The only goals are what you set yourself and there's no big reward for doing them except the knowledge that you did them. If KSP had some sort of end game or final achievement, you might have a point. But it doesn't and doesn't pretend to either. It's a toy, plain and simple.

And that's what mods are for, the stock is game is terrible and boring. It claims to have longevity by forcing people to grind, this new "bases" mod merely forces you to grind for longer so Squad can claim that there game is rich and fulfilling. Want to have bases? Try KerbinSide or RealisticEarth, both games give you 20+ launch sites and runways that you can buy rather than keeping the same launch site but just making you grind more to get a launch site that the game already gave you in previous versions.

Telling us we have bases is a lie, we have A base. This isn't a new feature, this is an old feature that we already have. As for KSP isn't a game? Yeh...no...last I check it was on Steam and it's developed as a game, so it's a game.

Citation needed. Also, he said a save with hundreds of flights, not a game with hundreds of saves. There's a difference.

That's a typo on my side, it's impossible to have a game with hundreds of active flights. The game runs on a single core and crashes if you use more than ~3.5GB of memory. By the time you reach around 70 flights the game is a slideshow, over a hundred and you're playing at 1FPS. Why is it that my computer can run Rome 2 battles with 10,000 soldiers without sweating? Why can I run Skyrim in HD with 57 mods and top graphics? Why can I run Watch Dogs? GTA 4? Crysis 3? and every major release on highest settings and most RPGs with multiple mods without an issue, yet KSP brings it to its knees? Why does everyone complain about the game crashing?

[Removed by the moderation team]

That's like.. your opinion, man. But seriously, just because you personally believe the game won't move beyond beta, doesn't mean it actually won't. Don't present your opinions as facts.

Why not? The rest of you seem to enjoy presenting your opinion as facts, or are opinions only allowed if they praise almighty Squad?

These should be forwarded onto the devs for review and fixing. Yeah, they haven't touched long standing bugs, but since it started, KSP has been about adding the framework for the full game. Balancing, adding content and fixing bugs should be done after alpha when most things that cause bugs are in and before release. 0.90 is the first beta release - give them a chance.

You mean the bug list that has more than 600 major bugs and only 8 of them have been solved in the past year? Sure thing, I’ll try it out.

Also, yes, early access alpha. KSP is one of the most complete and stable EA alphas I've ever seen (along with Minecraft). I'm not brown nosing or anything here - no full released game has given me as many hours of play as KSP has. You yourself have played over 600 hours on it.

EA Alpha for 4 years, no other game has an alpha stage last for 4 years. Squad don’t want to release a game because that would mean they have to fix the bugs, as lnog as the game remains in alpha/beta then people like yourself with defend the game as it’s in the beta/alpha stage.

This is actual rocket

I can’t take you seriously after this post.

[sal_vager]

Guys, it's better for everyone of the thread stays on track and doesn't turn to arguments or insults, and from seeing many threads in the past like this I think that's the direction this is heading in.

Different people play KSP differently, some like stock while others like addons, but neither way is more "right" if the player is enjoying themselves.

It's true KSP has been in development for a long time, it's a complex game but the issue tracker is not a great example of what's wrong with KSP, many of the issues are duplicates, just crash logs, really minor, not really bugs at all, intended behaviour or already fixed but not updated yet.

Squad is committed to finishing KSP, and will be adding much requested features such as better aerodynamics, in-situ resource utilisation and multiplayer.

And of course there is mod support so players can tailor the game to their liking, even you Derfel, and if you are having trouble with running the game we'll try to help you with that

[BudgetHedgehog]

this new "bases" mod merely forces you to grind for longer so Squad can claim that there game is rich and fulfilling.

What bases mod? To my knowledge, the only bases mods are the ones you mention. Do you mean the various levels of KSC? Because yeah, while KSC has been around since forever, the various levels are new. And the only grinding is done to get to what players are used to in previous versions. Yeah, they've made the game grindy (especially with regards to upgrading the R&D) and the difficulty settings are more of 'select grinding level', so there's room for improvement there, I agree. But upgrading KSC isn't the main goal of KSP. It's not even the main goal of career. It's the means to the end. What is the end? As I said, whatever you want it to be. Don't want to grind? There's sandbox for that.

Why is it that my computer can run Rome 2 battles with 10,000 soldiers without sweating? Why can I run Skyrim in HD with 57 mods and top graphics? Why can I run Watch Dogs? GTA 4? Crysis 3? and every major release on highest settings and most RPGs with multiple mods without an issue, yet KSP brings it to its knees? Why does everyone complain about the game crashing?

Because Unity is a terrible engine for the type of toy/game/whatever KSP is and KSPs asset loader needs serious rework. Next question?

Why not? The rest of you seem to enjoy presenting your opinion as facts, or are opinions only allowed if they praise almighty Squad?

I present my opinions as opinions and have been critical of Squad. This makes no sense.

EA Alpha for 4 years, no other game has an alpha stage last for 4 years.

No other game has a development team of like, 10 guys either. Get a group of friends and tell them to build a solar system within a year. That's basically what you're asking of Squad, except you're also asking that they make no mistakes and hurry it up already.

I can’t take you seriously after this post.

Ah ok, well I guess this is all moot then. Cheerio, chap!

Edited January 9, 2015 by ObsessedWithKSP

[RobotsAndSpaceships]

lol

anywho, play with less mods. the stock game is great

Lol. Wait, you're not joking? Horribly balanced parts, OP reaction wheels, no aerodynamics, no re-entry, magic probes, awful modeling, no art direction. Sure, the stock game is greaaaaat.

[tater]

Alpha, beta, v 1.0? Who cares?

As soon as someone mentions how much they paid, though, I have to go to value for the dollar/euro/pound.

I paid $27, I think, which is like one entree at dinner someplace, or part of a tank of gas, or a decent bottle of wine… I got my money's worth the first weekend I played when my wife was on call, and I stayed up late playing a couple nights.

What do you expect for effectively no expenditure on your part per unit time? Movies cost about $5/hr. Buy a movie and watch it 10X? Maybe $1/hr. How many hours have you played KSP, and what is your cost per hour? Trivial, I'd imagine.

[Renegrade]

These should be forwarded onto the devs for review and fixing. Yeah, they haven't touched long standing bugs, but since it started, KSP has been about adding the framework for the full game. Balancing, adding content and fixing bugs should be done after alpha when most things that cause bugs are in and before release. 0.90 is the first beta release - give them a chance.

While I agree with most of your post, I have to take exception here as a professional programmer:

The only, and I mean ONLY acceptable time to NOT fix bugs is when the code they reside in is just about to be replaced. For example, dealing with Unity 4 bugs is pointless as Unity 5 is right around the corner and will invalidate some of the fixes applied before then. Another example might be that kerbals being kicked off of the pod when going to EVA - there was some talk of a new 'climbing' system, and if that replaces the EVA code that's faulty and causing kerbals to fly away (and/or slide up and down ladders), it would be acceptable to shelve any repairs of those issues until the new code is out.

Bug fixing starts when you lay down the general concept of the program, and doesn't end until the product is taken out of service.

Early optimization isn't the root of all evil - late bugfixing is.

Oh and by the way, tater, my own value for KSP is about 2.3 cents/hour to this date, despite having bought three copies (I prefer the Store version, so I got that after I got the Steam version, and I bought someone a Steam version as a gift). I'd say that's good value for my dollar.

[RAINCRAFTER]

I agree with derfel, and here is why.

KSP's development has been severely cut back in the past year or so.

resources, scrapped

weather, scrapped

career mode, simplified

i could honestly go on and on, but my point is, these features have either been pushed back repeatedly because there is already a mod out there that does these jobs, or they get straight cancelled.

so essentially, squad is skipping out on features because they have such a strong modding community

unfortunately, they do not have a strong game to run all these mods, most of which are frankly required, such as deadly reentry, remotetech, FAR.

so now we are left with a half completed vanilla game that has no purpose.

or a modded game that has purpose, but is unplayable.

"oh it's just an alpha, calm yourself"

this was the excuse i heard over and over again once we started this slide into the mohole after 0.18.

well now we are in beta, "feature complete" but without many of the features that were planned, and features i feel the game desperately needs to give the gameplay some definition.

and it's so full of bugs that have been around for multiple versions it's not even funny

"oh it's just a beta, it's not supposed to be polished, bugs are to be expected"

okay, you say that now, but once they hit full release, full of bugs, and i bring these concerns up again, the response will be

"oh it's just an indie dev"

or my personal favorite

"you already got your moneys worth out of it, stop complaining"

these are the excuses of the weak.

the fact is this game has lost direction, it had the opportunity to become great, but now it is a giant lego simulator.

difficulty is slowly being removed, and replaced with a horrible science grind that makes no contextual sense (inspect runway unlock decouplers) and having things like moho's temperature removed, magic boulder removed etc

so now, this game is dull and a grindfest unless you have mods.

but you can't have mods

"b-b-but dont blame squad, it's not their fault! it's unity's fault!"

that doesn't fly. not after 4 years.

there are plenty of examples of games out there, that run on unity, have waaay more assets, and don't have anywhere near the issues KSP has. The reasons behind this are not my expertise, so i won't go into them, but for example, loading EVERYTHING on startup is not required. a [insert adjective here] dev would streamline the loading, keeping only the assets you need loaded at any one time.

TL;DR yes, derfel is allowed to get mad at squEAd, it's kinda their fault these mods are all required, and game needs serious streamlining.

as it stands he will be told to "uninstall your mods they're causing problems"

and if he does, he will be sitting in a bare room twiddling his thumbs because everything in vanilla has been done to death and squad wont add any necessary features because "there's already a mod for it"

see the problem?

No, I don't. Also, LEAVE OUR GAME ALONE! All of this is Unity's dev team's fault, because Unity 4 in 64 bit is unstable, but Unity 5 will fix that. And that means more mods! And what about stock; THEY WILL FIX THE BUGS BEFORE THE GAME LAUNCH. Otherwise it's just gonna be stuck in early access until Squad pulls the plug. P.S. Don't forget that good things take time, so wait. We are, so join us.

[skrit manfrat]

why does the launcher default to 64 bit? Anyone else getting that?

I just download the game fresh every time.

it is quicker than that terribad launcher

plus i archive all the versions myself

- - - Updated - - -

No, I don't. Also, LEAVE OUR GAME ALONE! All of this is Unity's dev team's fault, because Unity 4 in 64 bit is unstable, but Unity 5 will fix that. And that means more mods! And what about stock; THEY WILL FIX THE BUGS BEFORE THE GAME LAUNCH. Otherwise it's just gonna be stuck in early access until Squad pulls the plug. P.S. Don't forget that good things take time, so wait. We are, so join us.

see, what you did there was use the ol' "unity not us" excuse

i think you'll find I address why this excuse is pathetic, second paragraph from bottom.

everything else you said is pure speculation, and I speculate that Unity 5 will likely fix nothing if the problem lies in the devs.

as for joining you....

after reading this thread, i want to commit seppuku. this community is so sheltered and brainwashed it is sad.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Unity is a terrible engine for the type of toy/game/whatever KSP is and KSPs asset loader needs serious rework. Next question?

NO

you can't just skip over this,

that is a serious issue

it's literally a game-breaking issue.

it is THE issue.

[joebopie]

I hate to say it and it may have already been said. but these problems are mainly caused by you.

if you tried to mod ANY other game with over 40 different mods (by different modders in an Unfinished game) im dam sure you would have far more problems.

Edited January 9, 2015 by joebopie

[tater]

I've only bought the one copy, but I got a friend to buy another.

[Captain Sierra]

Does the part loader need a rework? Maybe. "If it ain't broke don't fix it." and as far as a stock or lightly modded game is concerned, (I can safely run 30+ mods without any memory reduction mods, forcing OpenGL, or 64 bit, no memory crashing) it ain't broke, so its not high on the list. All these other 'game breaking bugs' you complain about are. When Unity 5 comes along with stable 64 bit and DX11, memory issues will become history.

As for the whole "stock is boring" argument, you sir have picked the wrong genre. Welcome to Sandbox, have some imagination.

Back to the partloader, it is only "THE issue" when you're modding the game to hell and back. If thats what you need to do to have fun in this game, then suck it up and deal with it like the rest of us who aren't whining, complaining, and otherwise making fools of themselves.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Edited February 8, 2015 by vexx32
Another's behaviour is no excuse for your own.

[Hannu]

As for the whole "stock is boring" argument, you sir have picked the wrong genre. Welcome to Sandbox, have some imagination.

Unfortunately there are very small number of choices in newtonian spaceflight genre. On the other hand, it is very diverse area of possibilities. I think that therefore people have so much contradicting demands to Squad. Somebody wants to engineering game with a lot of technical details, math and realistic physics, somebody wants to build experimentally with "moar boosters" attitude. Other people wants economic and other terrestrial resources, build productive systems with space resources, fly planes, make huge stations, see nice graphics etc. It is clear that stock KSP or any other single game can never respond to everybody's demands. KSP is Squad's opinion. Fortunately they have understood that and made game open for mods. Now everyone can pick suitable mods for their playstyle. But it also means that vanilla KSP is very boring to most players. It is just a platform on which players can build their own game by selecting suitable mods.

[Tuareg]

I hate to say it and it may have already been said. but these problems are mainly caused by you.

if you tried to mod ANY other game with over 40 different mods (by different modders in an Unfinished game) im dam sure you would have far more problems.

just for one, well three, examples are elder scrolls games. morrowind, oblivion and skyrim can run hundreds of mods with little to no issues. they are not perfect by far but a single scene in skyrim has more assets on screen than KSP has alltogether, still it can run perfectly... im modding both games and guess which one is better to work with, well, i help a bit, its not ksp. actually ksp gives little to no help for modding and even that little is full of bugs, its rather unity we can say thanks for most of the mods.

- - - Updated - - -

Unfortunately there are very small number of choices in newtonian spaceflight genre. On the other hand, it is very diverse area of possibilities. I think that therefore people have so much contradicting demands to Squad. Somebody wants to engineering game with a lot of technical details, math and realistic physics, somebody wants to build experimentally with "moar boosters" attitude. Other people wants economic and other terrestrial resources, build productive systems with space resources, fly planes, make huge stations, see nice graphics etc. It is clear that stock KSP or any other single game can never respond to everybody's demands. KSP is Squad's opinion. Fortunately they have understood that and made game open for mods. Now everyone can pick suitable mods for their playstyle. But it also means that vanilla KSP is very boring to most players. It is just a platform on which players can build their own game by selecting suitable mods.

yep, this explanation would be nice if the game would run stable with the said mods

[rkman]

yep, this explanation would be nice if the game would run stable with the said mods

How much of a game is there really - given that it is not yet finished?

Being bummed out about KSP in its current state is like being bummed out by the fact that you can't yet really live in a house while it is being build. If you insist on living in it while it is being build, expect to be regularly inconvenienced.

Every minute of joy we can derive from KSP while it is in development is a bonus. Expecting a game experience that is as satisfying as it would be if the game would be finished, is unrealistic and a recipe for frustration.

[Captain Sierra]

yep, this explanation would be nice if the game would run stable with the said mods

How is that in any way a valid response? Its like what a conspiracy theorist would say, countering an argument with their main point which does not in any way actually counter the argument.

How do mods have ANY effect on the development decisions of Squad? Would it help cater to some people more? Yes, but what does that have to do with anything? PLENTY of people derive lots of enjoyment from the stock game, therefore not running stable with lots of mods doesn't affect a huge chunk of the playerbase. How does that argument carry any weight then?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Lol. Wait, you're not joking?

See no joke there.

Horribly balanced parts,

For Orbiter et al perhaps, or a game that consists only of Sandbox.

OP reaction wheels,

They're not magic anymore, use electricity, and allow you to spend less than ten minutes turning a rocket around. I see no problem.

no aerodynamics,

Half a point there, there are aerodynamics, they are just... er, "basic". And being worked on, by the way.

no re-entry,

Care to rephrase that? I can reenter just fine. No reentry heating is part of the aerodynamics mess. And probably being worked on too.

magic probes,

Er, elaborate? You mean instant unblockable comms? Sorry, I never tried using RemoteTech, but it sounds a bit too much like work to be present by default.

awful modeling,

Legacy parts are constantly being thrown out and improved, if you haven't noticed. Just because one talented guy can do a better job doesn't mean it's Squad's fault - that's the entire premise of "modding", y'know.

no art direction.

I admit I'm no connoisseur, but what do you mean? There's a fairly consistent style going on right now, some legacy parts excepted.

Sure, the stock game is greaaaaat!

Exclamation mark mine.

------------------------------------

NO

you can't just skip over this,

that is a serious issue

it's literally a game-breaking issue.

it is THE issue.

Once again proving the point that one man with talent, free time, and focus can do more than any given development team in the same time in one given area, there's a very good DDS Texture Loader developed in the Add-On boards, which cuts loading times significantly, and is reported to cause a massive improvement in memory usage when paired with forced OpenGL rendering. If memory usage is a problem for you, you may want to look into it. Squad has no need to look into it while they still have piles of other work to do.

[Tuareg]

...

one tipical like to keep his head in the sand and can find any (laughable) excuse for his little favorites. we all like this game thats why we play it, but it doesnt mean we will look over its faults and despite all the issues say its great when it isnt. keep entertaining yourself but dont want to convince others. for you probably a tetris has the same entertaining value

[skrit manfrat]

How is that in any way a valid response? Its like what a conspiracy theorist would say, countering an argument with their main point which does not in any way actually counter the argument.

How do mods have ANY effect on the development decisions of Squad? Would it help cater to some people more? Yes, but what does that have to do with anything? PLENTY of people derive lots of enjoyment from the stock game, therefore not running stable with lots of mods doesn't affect a huge chunk of the playerbase. How does that argument carry any weight then?

because there are features that were planned, and then removed because "there's already a mod for it"

for example, resources.

[sal_vager]

Nope, "resources" as originally envisioned was overcomplex and out of scope for what the devs want to do with KSP, but a more streamlined version of resources is being developed as we speak

[Commander Jebidiah]

I'm starting to wonder if any who bought the game actually read the terms of service.

"Squad is not under any obligation to release any updates, expansions or titles at any time. Each release may very well be the last one.

Squad is under no obligation to implement any given set of features prior to the final release for KSP or any future title. All posted lists of planned features are unofficial and do not imply a promise by Squad to deliver anything listed in them"

These say dont be disappointed by a lack of features and that Squad could just pack up and leave right now if they wanted to.

[Hyomoto]

Bugs? Bad. Squash. We agree. Some are the developer's fault whether due to lack of experience, future planning or simply providing a stopgap for progress while others are undeniably faults of Unity. But, like the editor which was just rewritten and the aerodynamic model which is being updated, to the expanded interest in space planes and multiplayer, the game has evolved to suit wider tastes and the developers simply didn't plan for every contingency. That doesn't mean there are no problems, but to push defense as mindless fandom is just as stupid as claiming they've purposefully ruined the game or refuse to improve it! The thing HAS improved, constantly and with every patch. The game is bigger, better and has more content. There are problems the developers want to address, a major one being the memory limitations, that you cannot write off just because it hasn't been done yet.

And yet, here people stand over empty plates complaining that their meal should be free because the steak was overcooked! Did you honestly begrudgingly force yourself to play, hour after hour? And now, hundreds of hours later, you have the audacity to say "I didn't enjoy myself at all, that was the worst ride I ever went on. I just had to ride it 6,243 times to make sure it was as bad as I thought!" Sorry, you cannot say "This game sucks, it's terrible, it's horrible. You think it's great, we think it's not." and have logged more hours than you did for multiple games put together. Does it have issues? Sure. Some more pressing than others, some are a matter of perspective but if you want to simply trash the developers because you are 'so fed up after having been entertained for longer than every movie you've ever watched combined', you can sit down now.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Hyomoto
spelling

[Dreamixpl]

Nope, "resources" as originally envisioned was overcomplex and out of scope for what the devs want to do with KSP

So Squad want KSP to be very easy, not complex, fun game? Or some players are (sorry for this) too stupid to do "complex" things like putting right parts in right places, and remembering that LFO is made out of O2 and H2? This could lead to good mechanics: "take uranium from eve, so you can research RTG's" or "finally make functional ground bases that have other purpose that to grind science".Why docking was added, many players have problem with it, it's so complex! KSP should be educational/simulator game, where orbital mechanics can be learn and never forgetted, but no, let's add autopilot and manevuer assistance.

These say dont be disappointed by a lack of features and that Squad could just pack up and leave right now if they wanted to.

So this means we can't have any complaints, because Squad can leave us? Why you are even posting this, KSP forum can be shut down every second. But really, don't tell we should praise and be thankfull to Squad for making KSP, we all just want it to be better.

"I didn't enjoy myself at all, that was the worst ride I ever went on. I just had to ride it 6,243 times to make sure it was as bad as I thought!"

I'm sure everyone who said anything about KSP in this thread want it to be better, and not have a refund or say its just bad. Everyone want KSP to be more enjoyable and to ride it the next 6,324 times, and say "KSP is so great now, but it had dark times, where it was bad".

[RAINCRAFTER]

Ya know what I think KSP haters should do? PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME, AND HAVE NO INVOLVEMENT IN THIS ONE. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. Mods, I want you to close the thread because of this. And haters, just stay away.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Everyone want KSP to be more enjoyable

Therein lies the problem. I've found that about 95% of "everyone" in any given scenario don't actually have "everyone" in mind when presenting their views on how a given thing "should be". This is where a good game developer - say, Squad - is different from "everyone". A good game developer knows that "everyone" can't be completely pleased, and the final shape of the game is always a balance between the 'wants' of "everyone", and the specific original vision the creators of the game intend to build the game to.

In this case? It means creating a base game just deep enough to engage just about everyone, and just shallow enough to let just about everyone test the waters without being scared off by the depths. Swaying it in either direction from there, catering to hardcore simulationists, crazy minecraftian designers, Angry Birds enthusiasts, or plain regular people that like the game exactly as it is and just want more of the same thing, is ultimately not a task they are required to, or quite possibly even capable of, undertaking. The best they can do is make a game that can do anything, and shows that it can do anything, and just let the modders take care of the rest.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Ya know what I think KSP haters should do? PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME, AND HAVE NO INVOLVEMENT IN THIS ONE. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. Mods, I want you to close the thread because of this. And haters, just stay away.

While you may not agree with someones opinion of the game (and personally, I don't agree with OP on a lot of issues), they have as much right to express their disappointment in the game as we do with our enjoyment of it (I'm sure that makes sense.. I can't brain today).