Include Shock Heating in the aerodynamic overhaul

[Whirligig Girl]

A huge consideration for spacecraft flying in atmospheres is that of shock heating, though most KSP players know it as Deadly Re-Entry. You have to consider the flight path to an extent to make sure it's not too steep, and you have to make sure you've got proper heat protection of the spacecraft. So it's pretty clear that this is something the stock game needs to have. But the thing is, it's not a "new system." Shock heating is part of the aerodynamic effects of travelling at high mach numbers. I think this is grounds to implement it along with the other aerodynamic changes. They're the same thing, just manifest on different speeds. They're not different, as the separate mods Ferram Aerospace Research and Deadly Re-Entry might seem to suggest by their nonunification.

And here's a little video I found that adds some color to this post. No other reason. Pretty much irrelevant.

EDIT: Oh wait, no it wasn't. There's some pretty particles there that would be great for when things start to ablate/melt/vaporize.

[asmi]

They're the same thing, just manifest on different speeds. They're not different, as the separate mods Ferram Aerospace Research and Deadly Re-Entry might seem to suggest by their nonunification.

They are different because they target different subsystems of simulation, one of them (applying physical forces to parts) is realistic (well as realistic as PhysX is), another (heat transfer/management) being placeholder-to-the-point-of-being-almost-useless.

[Whirligig Girl]

They are different because they target different subsystems of simulation, one of them (applying physical forces to parts) is realistic (well as realistic as PhysX is), another (heat transfer/management) being placeholder-to-the-point-of-being-almost-useless.

I just meant in real life.

[asmi]

I just meant in real life.

I know - I've tried to explain why they are implemented by different mods. There's WIP mod RealHeat though which aims to implement proper thermodynamics, and ferram is consulting developer (who himself works for NASA/ISS and knows what he is doing). So hopefully it will cover that area.

[klgraham1013]

We'll see if it's in line with Squad's idea of "fun".

I surely hope so.

[Frozen_Heart]

I'm hoping for a modest form of re-entry. Dangerous if you come in stupid but fun designs can still work if you're careful about your re-entry path.

[Joonatan1998]

I think re-entry doesn't need to be very hard in stock, I think being able to re-enter without heatshield from low orbit (if you do it correctly) but requiring heatshields for mun/mimus return and interplanetary aerobraking would be fair.

Most new players expect it to exist, and may be disapointed by that it doesn't.

Re-entry having visual effects but not actually doing anything is just confusing.

[cicatrix]

What?! (mock shock) I won't be able to enter the atmosphere at 90 degree at 18 km/s anymore?

[Darnok]

Yes, please add this one... for people that thinks it may be too hard add option to disable heating.

[r4pt0r]

How can they not, they took the time to give parts heat tolerances already lol. Finish the job and make those values matter.

[Whirligig Girl]

Considering how "placeholder-to-the-point-of-being-almost-useless" the current heat system is, that could be something to overhaul as well.

[tater]

It should of course be added such that a part like a mk 2 lander can reenter,“but don't expect it to survive atmospheric entry or even a sneeze. â€Â

[Torquemadus]

We know that part of the change in aerodynamics is supposed to make nosecones, cargo bays, and fairings(?) relevant. They will now be used to "protect" un-aerodynamic parts of the spacecraft by keeping them hidden inside or behind aerodynamic parts.

Will such parts also serve to protect vulnerable parts from the super heated air encountered during re-entry?

What would be utterly illogical would be for Squad to redesign the aerodynamic model now, only to have to revisit it again later to figure out how to implement re-entry heating.

[Motokid600]

Maybe make those thermometers actually work while there at it...

[NERVAfan]

I'm hoping for a modest form of re-entry. Dangerous if you come in stupid but fun designs can still work if you're careful about your re-entry path.

It should be pretty forgiving anyway, given that orbital velocities are at least 3x lower which means 1/9 the kinetic energy.

[Frozen_Heart]

It should be pretty forgiving anyway, given that orbital velocities are at least 3x lower which means 1/9 the kinetic energy.

That kind of speed is still pretty dangerous to unprotected objects...

[prophet_01]

Although the regular DER is already pretty foregiving, it's still rather easy to do it wrong. I'm basically a big fan of it but for new players it's too much to ask for imo. Many people struggle to do a moon landing. Pulling one off and burning up on reentry would rly suck. I pretty much don't notice DRE until I start missions to the mun.

That's why I think it should be very forgiving if implemented, and maybe even adjustable

[Jouni]

Although the regular DER is already pretty foregiving, it's still rather easy to do it wrong. I'm basically a big fan of it but for new players it's too much to ask for imo. Many people struggle to do a moon landing. Pulling one off and burning up on reentry would rly suck. I pretty much don't notice DRE until I start missions to the mun.

New players expect that DRE is already there. It takes an intermediate player to realize that no matter how impressive flames you see, they never harm the craft.

[lajoswinkler]

Deadly Reentry is one of the mods that should definitively become stock. I've seen lots of bickering hatred towards that mod, which is all unsubstantiated.

I've been playing with DRE for a long time now, tested it to its extremes, and I honestly don't understand where all that hatred comes from. Ignorance? Even on hard mode, you have to do some pretty stupid moves to disintegrate. To say it requires lots of thought is a blatant lie.

You can see what I've did with DRE at hard mode here.

There are few mods that should become a stock staple feature just for the sake of realism (Distant Object Enhancement, FAR, Planet Shine - all of which are just light plugins which barely impact the processing resources of a computer), but Deadly Reentry is perhaps the most important one because it adds the unique sense of realism, forcing you to think about speeds way over hypersonic ones encountered in the fastest atmospheric vessels. It forces you to avoid careless returning home by smacking straight into the planet.

New players expect reentry heating, and by the time they reach the level of capability to cause damage by it, a good deal of them will have no problems with adjusting their periapsis. (yeah, that's all it takes, with a heatshield to go along)

Because all of this I highly support this suggestion.

p.s.

Reentry glow is supposed to be white with a tinge of blue/green at its highest intensity as it's caused by rammed air glowing. Lower speeds - less energy, colder color.

Edited January 15, 2015 by lajoswinkler

[Capt Snuggler]

with clear visual indicators and audio indicators, shock heating would be no harder to understand than any other aspect of KSP.

Also having heat shields in the VAB parts list from the beginning would be a pretty clear tip that something is going to happen when you reenter the atmosphere. maybe have a tool tip system called "space - for dummies".

Make the MK1 command pod have a built in ablative heat shield as well if you like. then your first few flights will be more forgiving.

klaxon alarms, flashing warning lights, visually show the ablative effect and finally if that still doesn't get the message across - boom! unscheduled vaporization.

I still believe, people saying that new players wont be able to figure this out are just being condescending.

Newbies are newbies, not morons.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Capt Snuggler

[Majorjim!]

I fear that re-entry heat isn't going to happen.

It will limit craft design. The latest aero news has confirmed this. IMO there will be no stock farings either. For two reasons.

One, squad won't implement procedural parts, and conversely non procedural farings will limit craft design.

Mark my words, no stock re-entry heat, no stock farings.

In fact, I'm so confident they won't happen that I would bet real money to the fact.

[tater]

Although the regular DER is already pretty foregiving, it's still rather easy to do it wrong. I'm basically a big fan of it but for new players it's too much to ask for imo. Many people struggle to do a moon landing. Pulling one off and burning up on reentry would rly suck. I pretty much don't notice DRE until I start missions to the mun.

That's why I think it should be very forgiving if implemented, and maybe even adjustable

New players expect that DRE is already there. It takes an intermediate player to realize that no matter how impressive flames you see, they never harm the craft.

What Jouni said. I carefully plotted reentry until I realized that the flames were just for looks. I read the lander can descriptions and assumed that reentry mattered.

It's odd, people will say that explosions are very kerbal, that it's funny you can blow up the VAB, etc. They'll do it on purpose. That darn Jeb. Meanwhile, it's "scary" and "hard" if hitting the atmosphere at 10km/s is actually made a bad thing? Huh?

[klgraham1013]

It's amusing. I've shown, maybe, ten people KSP. Every time I show a re-entry, they ask about the flames. I have to tell them heat isn't implemented yet. People know what those flames mean. People know that things burn up on re-entry. I'd imagine people who just bought the game, people who don't go on these forums, re-enter expecting heat damage. It probably takes them awhile before they even realize there's no real danger in the slightest.

[Capt Snuggler]

I fear that re-entry heat isn't going to happen.

It will limit craft design. The latest aero news has confirmed this. IMO there will be no stock farings either. For two reasons.

One, squad won't implement procedural parts, and conversely non procedural farings will limit craft design.

Mark my words, no stock re-entry heat, no stock farings.

In fact, I'm so confident they won't happen that I would bet real money to the fact.

BOOO HISS!! AWAY! AWAY WITH YOU! BE GONE!

"It will limit craft design." - I completely disagree with this. it just means that the "SS Waktomatron" will need heat shields installed if you want to do a direct steep descent. a design challenge, yes, but not the end of the world.

Yes maybe some current designs will not survive the update, but as I've said before. you have to break some eggs to make an omelet.

"no stock farings." ALSO "majorjim", if that is your real name

Stock fairings doesn't mean procedural fairings. I don't believe stock fairings wouldn't limit designs ether. just another tool in the tool box.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Capt Snuggler

[Louella]

Yesterday, I took my jet surveyor aircraft, and swapped the basic jet engine on it, for a turbojet, because I was having trouble reaching 18km altitude for some survey contracts.

The plane, a single engine one, is now fast enough to get the flame visual effects on it. It now does in the order of 1.1km/sec sustainable at high altitude, and up to 1.9km/sec in a shallow descent from the highest altitude I reached with it, which was 45km.

No mods of consequence installed. Mark 1 cockpits.

With shock heating and re-entry heat being a thing, would that aeroplane still be able to do that ? with that single engine, and with Mk 1. parts ?