allista

[1.7] Throttle Controlled Avionics

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I'm also having RedParadise's issue in 1.02. The "main central engine" in some of my craft chills out while the radials or wing-mounted engines keep rockin'. It happened a few times in .90, but I assumed it was simply the craft balancing to optimize the vector. Not sure if it's a bug really? I mean, it seems proper, but not ideal. I didn't know you could switch of TCA per-engine though, so that solves the problem on my end if I can map it to a hotkey or action group. I honestly just assumed that my craft sucked and that TCA was trying to balance out my assembly idiocies!

Great mod though, I've used it to successfully launch hundreds of craft that were otherwise a bit iffy, even with MechJeb!

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Quiztech aero pack engines freak out when i raise the altitude with tca

I myself really love the Quiztech parts as well and TCA is amazing for VTOL, so my (cheaty) solution was just to go into the parts files for the qt engines and reduce/remove their spooling time so they acted just like normal engines and can easily be controlled by TCA. Otherwise, it's gonna be hard to build good VTOLs based on air-breathing jet engines.

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i found a solution for this problem, i just gotta add Tons of the intakeair rcs hidden on the craft nose :P

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TCA tool bar button has disappeared. When zero addon buttons are selected to show, the tic, tac, tow pattern appears, but if TCA is the only addon selected to show on the tool bar, then nothing shows on the tool bar.

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Now I see. That is indeed a useful option. Do you have an idea of how this should be implemented in terms of user interface? I mean, we only have one Main Throttle. Of course, if I add the Pitch->altitude control, we may use the MT for the linear thrusters group, but if a user wants to use MT for altitude, then what? Add a separate slider and control this groups' thrust with a mouse?

perhaps you could keep the main throttle but add an ability to designate engines as vertical and horizontal, or maybe lift and propulsion. propulsion/horizontal engines could attempt to max out thrust to the maximum of their ability or rather act like main engines do now where they go as fast as the main throttle will let them. vertical/lift engines could only work while they could provide lift to the craft, so while pointing the nose up those engines would not be active as they would be providing a non-upward propulsion, however, while the nose of the craft is facing forward horizontally the vertical/lift engines would be maintaining altitude based on the current altitude control slider.

The pitch based altitude control could be a toggle switch that uses the space of the current altitude control, because while in that mode the normal altitude control would not be necessary. what I mean is the user could switch between types of altitude control. I don't think both at the same time would be useful, or even possible.

the toggle button could be located by the altitude control slider

you could have max/min angle sliders in the window to control the pitch based altitude control, also a max/min thrust in the same space.

i don't know how exactly you would like your layout though, these last lines are just opinions :D

Thanks for your response again. Sorry i did not reply sooner

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I am having a lot of fun with Umbra Space Industries Honeybadger VTOL solutions and this mod. Thanks for the effort :)

As far as I am concerned this should be packaged with the Honeybadger just to make it flyable...for that matter this TCA should be stock.

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As far as I am concerned this should be packaged with the Honeybadger just to make it flyable...for that matter this TCA should be stock.

OMG totally. I just put up a vid of me landing a honeybadger VTOL on Minmus and it would not have been possible without TCA

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OMG totally. I just put up a vid of me landing a honeybadger VTOL on Minmus and it would not have been possible without TCA

Link or it did not happen :)

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Link or it did not happen :)

My video making is almost as bad as my landings. I decided last minute to hit record. And it's long, but easy to skip around.

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Would it be possible to make this mod auto-trim itself? There are 3 "parts" which I would like to trim: the vertical speed (so that the set point is the speed it is actually going), the horizontal velocity autopilot (so that the craft doesn't rock back and forth) and the engines (so that it would take into account the time that jet engines etc. take to change throttle, stopping it from moving up and down). My idea for the vertical speed is that it would compare the set point and the actual speed then either change the set point it is using in its calculations or increase/decrease the speed as required. For the other 2 it would work out how long the craft takes to react to input and use that to decide when and how much to change the throttle/pitch/yaw/roll. I don't know whether this is possible or easy to code but it is something that I would like to see in all autopilot type things.

Edited by volcanicshrimp

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TCA tool bar button has disappeared. When zero addon buttons are selected to show, the tic, tac, tow pattern appears, but if TCA is the only addon selected to show on the tool bar, then nothing shows on the tool bar.

Im having this same issue.

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Im having this same issue.

Please note, in my sandbox games I do get the TCA button. Just not in career.

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Somehow I missed the 0.24 feelings of this mod where you can just use it right away without any part or tech node. I'm not sure I was looking in a right place for config file. I don't think they exist in the first place.

If this is not too much to ask, How can I tweak it so it doesn't require any part or tech?

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For those that say the TCA button is missing in career, if you read the OP, it states you need to unlock it. It resides in the "Specialized Control" branch of the tech tree. That being said, if you want to have it from the start, just edit the TechTree.cfg file in the TCA directory. Look for the entry "TechRequired = specializedControl" and change "specializedControl" to "start"

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My ideal controls for a VTOL:

Translational controls affect target velocity in each axis. Rotational controls affect target orientation for SAS. Throttle changes override vertical axis control, changing it to a target vertical height instead. Or perhaps a hotkey instead to swap between vertical speed mode and vertical height mode.

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just edit the TechTree.cfg file in the TCA directory

Oh jeez, my bad. I though I need to put something on my vessel to enable TCA. I don't mind the tech tree though.

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I also don't get the TCA button... and I only play sandbox :P Now what?

I do get the option in the toolbar to add the button. And I see the icon there. Then I check it to add the TCA button to the toolbar. But it doesn't appear. So I can't configure it. So I thought TCA had become a fully automated thing where you just fly and it balances engines for you. Nothing. I press Y, T, nothing happens to the engines. The only thing changing my angle is reaction wheels.

Thoughts?

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I also don't get the TCA button... and I only play sandbox :P Now what?

I do get the option in the toolbar to add the button. And I see the icon there. Then I check it to add the TCA button to the toolbar. But it doesn't appear. So I can't configure it. So I thought TCA had become a fully automated thing where you just fly and it balances engines for you. Nothing. I press Y, T, nothing happens to the engines. The only thing changing my angle is reaction wheels.

Thoughts?

To all the people that were have this issue think I have found a fix. At-least it worked for me.

Deleted - TCA and toolbar from gametdata and then reinstalled

Now it works, tested on two different copies and working now on both. (do not install over the top it does not work)

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I can't change engine modes not in flight nor in editor. :(

When I rightclick on detail there is no such option at all. :(

But TCA works fine and all engines work as 'Main' as I can see.

Version 1.0.2, TCA 2.2.1 is the only plugin installed.

What could be gone wrong? (sorry for my english, btw :) )

Don't know if you have already had help with this, but my first guess is: the ModuleManager is missing. It is necessary for engine modes to work (it adds corresponding module to engine parts).

- - - Updated - - -

This thing gets rave reviews, but so far no matter how I play with the sliders even the most basic 4 poster craft riding rockets offering near instantaneous throttle response leaves the craft wobbling like a quarter nearing the end of its spin on a table. I can get it to stop while not using Kill Horizontal Velocity and turning off any steering authority, but this basically guts functionality. Even adding little rockets to maneuvering groups leaves the mains trying to do the steering themselves meaning the problem still rears it's ugly head.

Edit: Also this thing seems to be killing SAS as soon as I enable it. Is this normal behavior?

Can't tell you anything without a .craft file or a screenshot at least. What you describe looks like engine-response-time problem, but you tell the response is quick. I need to see the vessel.

SAS is turned off automatically when Kill Hor Speed is enabled, for obvious reasons.

- - - Updated - - -

TCA tool bar button has disappeared. When zero addon buttons are selected to show, the tic, tac, tow pattern appears, but if TCA is the only addon selected to show on the tool bar, then nothing shows on the tool bar.

First, the obvious:

TCA button appears only in-flight, only for vessels that have engines, and in career mode only after you purchase the TCA upgrade in the TechTree.

Otherwise, folks here have reported that deleting the Toolbar config (GameData/toolbar-settings.dat) helps with the missing button.

As an option, you may force TCA to use the stock AppLauncher instead of the Toolbar: change the UseStockAppLauncher = false to true in GameData/ThrottleControlledAvionics/Plugins/PluginData/ThrottleControlledAvionics/TCA.glob.

- - - Updated - - -

I myself really love the Quiztech parts as well and TCA is amazing for VTOL, so my (cheaty) solution was just to go into the parts files for the qt engines and reduce/remove their spooling time so they acted just like normal engines and can easily be controlled by TCA. Otherwise, it's gonna be hard to build good VTOLs based on air-breathing jet engines.
i found a solution for this problem, i just gotta add Tons of the intakeair rcs hidden on the craft nose :P

FatherLawrence is right: airbreathing engines (at least jets) have too large throttle response time to be usable with TCA.

- - - Updated - - -

I myself really love the Quiztech parts as well and TCA is amazing for VTOL, so my (cheaty) solution was just to go into the parts files for the qt engines and reduce/remove their spooling time so they acted just like normal engines and can easily be controlled by TCA. Otherwise, it's gonna be hard to build good VTOLs based on air-breathing jet engines.
Would it be possible to make this mod auto-trim itself? There are 3 "parts" which I would like to trim: the vertical speed (so that the set point is the speed it is actually going), the horizontal velocity autopilot (so that the craft doesn't rock back and forth) and the engines (so that it would take into account the time that jet engines etc. take to change throttle, stopping it from moving up and down). My idea for the vertical speed is that it would compare the set point and the actual speed then either change the set point it is using in its calculations or increase/decrease the speed as required. For the other 2 it would work out how long the craft takes to react to input and use that to decide when and how much to change the throttle/pitch/yaw/roll. I don't know whether this is possible or easy to code but it is something that I would like to see in all autopilot type things.

1) it is possible with the proper PID controller on the vertical velocity instead of my black-magic controller I compiled with trial, error and some statistics. But, that would mean constant oscillations about the set-point, no way around it (just like with the horizontal speed where a PID controller is implemented). I've done many tests with different setups of current and PID controllers for V-speed, and I reasoned it is preferable for engines and the whole vessel to have constant V-thrust and asymptotic velocity rather than constant velocity with jittering thrust and tremors all over the ship. Think about poor kerbals :wink:

*also I could show you the figures and graphs some other time

2) Well, I guess I've just explained this too. If you want a constant speed (zero in this case), you have to oscillate; I'm not as good with physics as to compute the critical oscillation mode with so much variables and floating point errors.

3) It's a long standing problem which I don't know how to approach yet. All current calculations are instantaneous: each frame I have a working solution for the current engines' thrusts and current user/SAS input. With inertial engines like jets I get unsolvable system half the time...

- - - Updated - - -

Please note, in my sandbox games I do get the TCA button. Just not in career.
Somehow I missed the 0.24 feelings of this mod where you can just use it right away without any part or tech node. I'm not sure I was looking in a right place for config file. I don't think they exist in the first place.

If this is not too much to ask, How can I tweak it so it doesn't require any part or tech?

For those that say the TCA button is missing in career, if you read the OP, it states you need to unlock it. It resides in the "Specialized Control" branch of the tech tree. That being said, if you want to have it from the start, just edit the TechTree.cfg file in the TCA directory. Look for the entry "TechRequired = specializedControl" and change "specializedControl" to "start"
Oh jeez, my bad. I though I need to put something on my vessel to enable TCA. I don't mind the tech tree though.

1) Please, read the OP, it explains how to obtain TCA functionality in career mode (partless TechTree upgrade in Specialized Control). Unless you have it, you won't be getting TCA button and funcs.

2) For those of you who would like to have TCA right away even in career: there's no need to edit TechTree.cfg. In TCA Globals (GameData/ThrottleControlledAvionics/Plugins/PluginData/ThrottleControlledAvionics/TCA.glob) there's an option just for that: IntegrateIntoCareer = true. Change it to false.

Edited by allista

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I can confirm the bug is related to having the Engine as the root part.

Edit: In fact, its not that, If I switch control wiht "command form here " to a docking port, then it work.

Strangely enough, I was unable to confirm it with the quick test I performed: made a copy of a stock engine and added ModuleCommand to it.

Probably, the issue is in the Endeavour Lander itself. I'll try to look at the config.

Here's the video:

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I had a question for you... is there a chance that Throttle Controlled Avionics ct. will be able to effect multiple crafts at the same time in the future? I was having the effects turn off when I switched vessels. It presents quite a problem when trying to drive across two floating objects... XD

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I had a question for you... is there a chance that Throttle Controlled Avionics ct. will be able to effect multiple crafts at the same time in the future? I was having the effects turn off when I switched vessels. It presents quite a problem when trying to drive across two floating objects... XD

Yep, I have that planned as a next-major-release feature. But I won't be able to work on it until autumn, I'm afraid.

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Apparently, we need a fourth engine mode in TCA: Balance Only -- group of engines that is optimized to always provide zero torque. That's not easy with the current calculation scheme, but I have the general idea of how to do it.

I dunno if you remember, but I made a request for something similar a while back, but I think I explained myself rather badly.

If I am reading the above right, you are thinking of allowing the user to configure some of the engines such that they generate thrust, whilst not generating any change in pitch / roll (Angular velocity).

Surely, this would also be of use in solving the issue of jet engines on their own not being much use with TCA (Because they cannot change thrust quickly enough)?

ie if you set your jet engines to this "Balance Only" mode, they would generate most of the force required to hover the craft (say 90%) and would not need to vary thrust levels so quickly.

This could then be supplemented by some fast-reacting rocket engines to provide the other 10% of the lifting force, plus handle all of the steering forces.

viola! most of the thrust handled by (cheap, weight-wise) jet engines which sit at a relatively constant thrust level, with some tiny rocket engines (or even vernor thrusters?) left to handle the small but quickly-changing thrust component.

Apologies if I am totally gettting the wrong end of the stick (again).

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I dunno if you remember, but I made a request for something similar a while back, but I think I explained myself rather badly.

If I am reading the above right, you are thinking of allowing the user to configure some of the engines such that they generate thrust, whilst not generating any change in pitch / roll (Angular velocity).

Surely, this would also be of use in solving the issue of jet engines on their own not being much use with TCA (Because they cannot change thrust quickly enough)?

ie if you set your jet engines to this "Balance Only" mode, they would generate most of the force required to hover the craft (say 90%) and would not need to vary thrust levels so quickly.

This could then be supplemented by some fast-reacting rocket engines to provide the other 10% of the lifting force, plus handle all of the steering forces.

viola! most of the thrust handled by (cheap, weight-wise) jet engines which sit at a relatively constant thrust level, with some tiny rocket engines (or even vernor thrusters?) left to handle the small but quickly-changing thrust component.

Apologies if I am totally gettting the wrong end of the stick (again).

No, you are getting it totally right. That's what I have in mind and will implement in the next release. Not soon, though :(

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