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[1.9-1.10] Throttle Controlled Avionics


allista

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3 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

@allista check OP in SpaceDock thread:

 

Oh, hell, the oakhead of mine! The email was in spam. It was sooo long since anything useful got there that I totally forgot to check. Thanks for the advice, it helped, though in a non trivial way :rolleyes:

5 minutes ago, Buster Charlie said:

Mine came right away but got put in my gmail spam folder

Bingo! =]

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TCA3 BETA v38 2016.02.20

This is a Release build, meaning there's no color debug lines protruding from each vessel and much less spam in logs.

Quote

v38
* Fixed problem with airbreathing engines being stuck in flameout state after game reloading  when landed.
* Removed redundand "slow acceleration" routine from PointNavigator. Current VSC+HSC cope with aerodynamic problems.
* Anchor takes into account SlowTorque using TorqueResponseTime as distance modifier.
* Improved landing by decreasing downward velocity when drifting horizontally. This prevents rolling over, ensuring that there's almost no lateral drift when
the ship finally lands.

 

Edited by allista
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Woah! Squadron commands?

I was poking at this and was *almost* getting some good results with a pair of KAX helicopters, but warping made the following craft vanish! Yikes :D

This is an utterly cool feature set.

Some of the meanings of the buttons and controls seem unclear to me, but I'll re-read the OP for some clarification, and look forward to the release of v3 :)

 

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6 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

Woah! Squadron commands?

I was poking at this and was *almost* getting some good results with a pair of KAX helicopters, but warping made the following craft vanish! Yikes :D

This is an utterly cool feature set.

Some of the meanings of the buttons and controls seem unclear to me, but I'll re-read the OP for some clarification, and look forward to the release of v3 :)

 

If you're going to try the beta, there's an in-game manual available. It is not complete yet, but already has plenty of information.

As for squadron commands, right now they are limited to flying in formation: pack-and-unload KSP mechanics prevents automation away from the active vessel. You may, e.g. set flight altitude or velocity, order the squadron to follow or land, that sort of thing.

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6 hours ago, smjjames said:

"* Fixed problem with airbreathing engines being stuck in flameout state after game reloading  when landed."

I thought that was a stock bug, but good that a workaround was found.

What I do when an engine is in a flameout: at the start of the physical frame set thrust limit to 10% and main throttle to 100%. If there's enough air intake, the engine starts.

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9 hours ago, allista said:

If you're going to try the beta, there's an in-game manual available. It is not complete yet, but already has plenty of information.

As for squadron commands, right now they are limited to flying in formation: pack-and-unload KSP mechanics prevents automation away from the active vessel. You may, e.g. set flight altitude or velocity, order the squadron to follow or land, that sort of thing.

Thank you -- I had to roll my eyes at myself when I realized what the TCA "MAN" button indicated (hint: not "manual control"). Thank you for assembling that!

Any notion of why my 2nd craft would have vanished upon hitting 4x warp? Just KSP thing?

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On 1/3/2016 at 6:55 AM, kcs123 said:

Also, experimetnig with KAX Huey Heli rotor. It works well to some degree if you have at least 2 rotors. With only one, does not work well enough.
Again, problem with low thrust response as with jet engines. I think those rotors should be more responsive compared to jets, because thrust is not controled by RPM of engines, it is controled trough angle of attack of rotor blades instead while RPM remain more/less constant. But that is topic for KAX mod, not this one.

After looking at your post, I had to try a similar craft--it turns out that design is quite a blast to fly around. I like KAX's compromise for lack of cyclical controls, etc. by simply putting torque controls in the prop part itself (is that even new? I can't remember if the original firespitter props had this). I wound up creating a flotilla of them and touring around the KSC with my buddies in-tow. Sudden inspirations for air-lift operations are coming to mind.

After a few variations, I tried making a single-rotor craft, but TCA seems confused by it. I'm probably missing something obvious.

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TCA do miracles with multiple engines, but it seems that it does not handle properly craft with only one vertical thrust engine.
That was a reason for me to finally learn a bit more about kOS. It was on my "to do in KSP" list for quite long time.

Anyway, I ended up with nice kOS script that handle hovering well enough, although it still lack features from TCA like kill horizontal speed, maintain stable pitch/yaw/roll and such. It is next thing on my "to do in KSP" list, although I'm short on time to play KSP lately, so I don't know when I will be able to improve it.

But even in this state can help with helicopter craft designs. You can find more about it in link in my signature and in KAX thread as well.

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Any idea why the TCA button is not showing up? I have the TCA kontext menu entries (Main engine, etc) and i can make the button "visible" in Blizzys toolbar configuration but neither in stock nor in blizzys the actual buttons shows up - so there is no gui to use and configure. Just installed via CKAN but the install is quite mod heavy so it may be a conflict. Looking for some advice where to start looking :)

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4 minutes ago, Darkstar One said:

Any idea why the TCA button is not showing up? I have the TCA kontext menu entries (Main engine, etc) and i can make the button "visible" in Blizzys toolbar configuration but neither in stock nor in blizzys the actual buttons shows up - so there is no gui to use and configure. Just installed via CKAN but the install is quite mod heavy so it may be a conflict. Looking for some advice where to start looking :)

It's a known problem with the Toolbar. Heavens know why, but sometimes its data file becomes corrupted which results in such behaviour.

You need to either delete/rename the GameData/toolbar-settings.dat file, or you may set the UseStockAppLauncher option to true in the GameData/ThrottleControlledAvionics/Plugins/PluginData/ThrottleControlledAvionics/TCA.glob file.

Edited by allista
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4 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

Thank you -- I had to roll my eyes at myself when I realized what the TCA "MAN" button indicated (hint: not "manual control"). Thank you for assembling that!

Any notion of why my 2nd craft would have vanished upon hitting 4x warp? Just KSP thing?

Sorry, but I couldn't come up with a better icon; not an artist :rolleyes:

If it was lagging behind, it was probably packed for orbit at some point and then was destroyed by the game as being "in orbit while in atmosphere".

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4 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

After a few variations, I tried making a single-rotor craft, but TCA seems confused by it. I'm probably missing something obvious.

 

4 hours ago, kcs123 said:

TCA do miracles with multiple engines, but it seems that it does not handle properly craft with only one vertical thrust engine.

Well, after all TCA is about engine balancing, and you can't balance a single thing :wink:

But my tests with a single-rocket-engine ships (think of a classic rocket) were good: altitude and attitude, controlled landing, navigation -- all worked well.

Could you may be make a demonstration video of the problems you're referring to?

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9 minutes ago, allista said:

Sorry, but I couldn't come up with a better icon; not an artist :rolleyes:

If it was lagging behind, it was probably packed for orbit at some point and then was destroyed by the game as being "in orbit while in atmosphere".

Ha! No worries -- it was totally clear what it was, once I realized why the normal TCA features weren't showing up (I made a craft that didn't have a cockpit or probe core on it--one of Lack's deluxe command chair cockpits).

The other craft was past the far end of the runway (+2.5km?), so a good ways off. Sounds indeed like what happened. I'll try TT NeverUnload and see if I can keep my sheep from vanishing into the void.

 

2 minutes ago, allista said:

Well, after all TCA is about engine balancing, and you can't balance a single thing :wink:

But my tests with a single-rocket-engine ships (think of a classic rocket) were good: altitude and attitude, controlled landing, navigation -- all worked well.

Could you may be make a demonstration video of the problems you're referring to?

That's an extremely fair point, and one that I had considered a good-enough answer to the helicopter question (Diazo's Vertical Velocity mod might be a good substitute), but even attempting to combine it with the tail rotor facing down produced weird results--I *did* make sure it was thrusting in the correct direction. ;) 

I'll post some pictures if I can try again and get the same lack-of-behavior.

Edited by Beetlecat
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For the last week and a half I have been working on the new modular framework inside TCA that allows for TCA components to be optional and be linked to pseudoparts in the tech tree. 

The framework and tech tree configuration are almost finished. But the changes that had to be made are profound, and there bound to be bugs in the previously working functionality.

So when it's finally operational I'll ask you to put your effort into testing. Without this framework I obviously cannot release TCA3, as adding it later will produce all kinds of confusion and complaints.

Edited by allista
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Same link for craft files as in one of previous posts. There you can find simple KAX-kOS Heli.

qPwkYO3.jpg

 

Mod required are KAX, kOS and FAR(due to wing weight changes by FAR for balancing purposes). I don't have time to create craft without kOS part it is only required to load craft properly.

I have used latest TAC link for beta available on dropbox. For some reason TAC don't change thrust on main rotor at all. I have tried with settings on engine for main engine and for balanced thrust. Also checked in options that main rotor engine have "On" settings for TCA.

It could be issue only for KAX parts, but it seems that TCA does not set thrust for engines at all. Neither change main thrust throtlle or change thrust limiter on engine. Sorry, I didn't have time for complete reinstall on my end to ensure that some other mod didn't brake something. Many of mods have published new versions, some still haven't changed link from KerbalStuff to SpaceDock or some other hosting site. It is kind of difficult to track down all possible changes and recheck everything with manual installs.

I will try TCA beta release with some other crafts, but currently my time for KSP is very limited, so I can't promisse proper feedback, but I will try it ASAP.

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5 hours ago, kcs123 said:

qPwkYO3.jpg

--when the craft is/was working--

Do you find the tail rotor does a bit of good? There's no active torque from the main rotor to fight (unless you add some trim to fake it). Roverdude's ducted fans can provide thrust in either direction based on control in put, but the KAX tail rotor is simply a smaller engine, and doesn't automatically reverse. Maybe it can be converted to behave like the ducted fan...

--

My own attempts at getting my single-rotor helicopter wound up pretty successful with TCA upon my further experiments. I completely removed the tail rotor, so maybe it created less confusion over thrust angles, etc. Balancing it with RCS Build Aid makes a HUGE difference for creating a controllable ship. I might not have even *needed* TCA, at that point. ;)

Edited by Beetlecat
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@Beetlecat. I put tail rotor for aesthetic purposes mostly. It have thrust limit set to zero, but also to have some meaning to put it there I sometimes put yaw reaction wheel on that engine and reduce yaw reaction wheel torque on main rotor. You may found those MM setings buried somewhere in KAX thread. Besides zero thrust, tail rotor is set to "off" for TCA, so it should not be used for calculations at all. Perhaps some strange kraken interaction is going on between TCA and KAX engines :).

Not exactly scientific to use reaction wheels, but it serve well enough for game purpose, since it is not easy to create proper code that will actualy calculate and change AoA on propeller blades for changing directions and thrust.

Yep, RCS Build Aid is one of my favorite tool in craft design process, that heli is built with it, so it is possible to fly without TCA, although you need to adjust throttle carefully, so you not exceed vertical velocity. Otherwise you might flip over craft very easy.

Good thing with not working TCA on my craft is that I ended up with learning kOS and creating my own custom hovering scripts. Not only for helicopters, but for powered landing on Mun too :)

But regardless, TCA have found place in my KSP game, just need to design crafts in different way. Sometimes it is quicker and less complicated for VTOL purposes than kOS scripts, but both are equaly fun to use.

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First attempt to distribute TCA Modules along the TechTree

All the nodes are just the stock TechTree nodes. Black arrows are, again, stock TechTree connections. Green nodes contain TCA Modules.

But mind the red arrows: they represent explicit module dependencies. So that, for example, LandingAutopilot--->Anchor means that for LandingAutopilot to work, Anchor should be already purchased. Note, that these dependencies are not imaginary, but arise from the way TCA works. So consider them to be an invariant.

Unfortunately, the stock TechTree is not very well suited for autopilot-like functionality.

Any comments or suggestions?

w5A7A2W.png

 

To add to the chaos, here's also the graph of TCA Module Dependencies themselves. The mirror of those red arrows.

FrdQZuc.png

Edited by allista
Added Module Dependencies graph
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It's kind of confusing as far as what depends on what and it looks like a few of the dependencies loop around each other. Also, in order to enforce the dependencies without running into problems, you'd have to rearrange the stock tree.

I'd say simplify it and perhaps use the similar path that mechjeb uses. The landing nodes seem like a good spot for some of the landing features, but the dependencies are still all over the place and it seems like you'd just run into problems.

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28 minutes ago, smjjames said:

It's kind of confusing as far as what depends on what and it looks like a few of the dependencies loop around each other. Also, in order to enforce the dependencies without running into problems, you'd have to rearrange the stock tree.

I'd say simplify it and perhaps use the similar path that mechjeb uses. The landing nodes seem like a good spot for some of the landing features, but the dependencies are still all over the place and it seems like you'd just run into problems.

Well, you wouldn't believe how much simplified it already is! :confused:

What depends on what is simple: black arrows are just the TechTree as it is. And red arrows work like this: LandingAutopilot--->Anchor means that for LandingAutopilot to work, Anchor should be already purchased. As for problems, there shouldn't be any, for the framework checks all the dependencies automatically. And if the part is purchased, its function(s) will become available if and only if all its dependencies are also purchased.

And what is the "path that mechjeb uses"?

Edited by allista
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1 hour ago, allista said:

First attempt to distribute TCA Modules along the TechTree

Mind the red arrows: they represent explicit module dependencies. The stock TechTree is not very well suited for autopilot-like functionality.

Any comments or suggestions?

w5A7A2W.png

 

I like it: The basic features are fairly accessible, and appropriate to their node. It is good to have features that unlock as they may be needed. Some other mods fall into the trap of unlocking the (whatever) far past when it would be useful to have.  (RT in particular locks away the built in low range omni antenna so deep in the tree without ever stating it anywhere such that it becomes very frustrating to contend with. (Although if frustration is to be avoided, RT probably isn't the mod to run! :P ))

The tech tree as stock leaves a lot to be desired, unfortunately,  as previously noted, but I think this is entirely reasonable as far as a progression goes.

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TCA3 BETA v39 2016.02.27

This is a Release build, meaning there's no color debug lines protruding from each vessel and much less spam in logs.

Also, this is the first release of the full career-mode integration.

As I said before, it is a big change in TCA internals, so there bound to be some nasty bugs.

Quote

v39
* Added full career-mode integration with various TCA Modules distributed along the TechTree as dummy parts.
* Added automatic CareerPart name generation.
* Added python framework to automatically generate dummy TechTree parts.
* Added TCA Parts Info to advanced pane in the TCA GUI.
* Added simple model for TCA Modules in TechTree.
* Improved CruiseControl: NeededVelocity may now be set with MaxNavSpeed slider
and with pitch-yaw controls; which themselves do not cause vessels rotation
directly anymore.
* Added FormationUpdateTimer that forces recompilation of the Formation each 60 seconds.
* Corrected HSC ManualTranslation logic. Fixed regular translation usage.
* Converted VTOLAssist and FlightStabilizer toggles to optional ButtonSwitches.
* Made "Follow Terrain" a button switch instead of the toggle.
* Fixed prograde/retrograde orientation in AttitudeController; activation of T-SAS automatically dewarps.
* Improved DewarpTime calculation. Added automatic dewarping on SOI change.
* Fixed TimeToBurn (aka Estimated Burn Time) calculation.
* Fixed MaxMassFlow calculation.
* Increased maximum navigation speed to 500m/s.
* Using maximum torque instead of prev.frame torque to compute TorqueResponseTime.
* Filtered out some noise from AttitudeControl circuitry.

 

Edited by allista
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