Tutorial Feedback for Maxmaps

[TriggerAu]

Maxmaps posted the below to reddit earlier today. For those who can help out, I thought I'd share it here (Heading links to reddit post):

Revamping our Tutorials: We need a hand.

Hi guys!

We're currently in the process of working on our tutorials to bring them to up to standard. We're, however, running into the issue of everyone in our Studio being familiar enough with KSP that finding issues with them becomes pretty hard.

We were wondering if the newer (and maybe not so new) among you who went through the tutorials had any specific issues with them in certain parts, found some tutorials lacking or areas in the game not properly explained.

Your feedback is incredibly valuable to us, so thanks in advance!

PS. If I shouldnt be crossposting, then Mods please feel free to nuke this thread

[Streetwind]

This may sound a little grumpy, but I'd be more willing to offer my input if Maxmaps could actually come to KSP's own official community forum with the request as well. I mean, I have nothing against reddit whatsoever (I even have an account), but sometimes it just feels like the official forums have become a bunch of customers that gets PR-sanctioned update blogs, while the actual developer interaction happens elsewhere.

That said, I do have in my chatlogs at home the confused questions of a total newbie that I introduced to KSP last fall. I'm gonna go through that when I get home and summarize the issues he raised.

[problemecium]

/me nukes the thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

I don't have a lot to say other than that the tutorials need to make sure they cover all the important KSP controls, such as quicksaving, how Science transmission works, etc.

[MGCJerry]

I would also like to echo what Streetwind says. I don't do reddit (i dont even have an account and have only read 1 or 2 threads there - ever), the interface is abysmal to my eyes and tolerance levels. I've played ksp for the last year and I'm still as dense as Kerbin and hugely incompetent but I'd like to try to help.

[TriggerAu]

I only recently made myself a reddit account to join in a conversation or two there. I do prefer the forum format, but different people have different preferences for how they communicate, learn, etc.

If you have some feedback on the tutorials, things that work, things that you find don't make sense or any ideas - and don't have a reddit account, or prefer to post em in here I'm happy to collate em and get em back to Max/Ted via reddit or other.

[Jonnyp]

I'm still as dense as Kerbin and hugely incompetent

Exactly the sort of player needed for tutorial feedback! Seasoned pro's are useless for this...

[Corw]

What's with this thing of posting everywhere except your own forums?

[Frank327]

Right now, the two must difficult parts of the early game of KSP are learning how to do a good gravity turn and how to land on the mun. But they are exactly the two subjects that don't have a tutorial. I understand why it is, it's more difficult to do a tutorial when the player's time to follow the instructions is naturally limited. Maybe for these two subjects it's an idea to let the game take over for a while and show the player how to do it. Just let them see what a gravity turn looks like and then let them practice it.

Also it might be an idea to have something like an encyclopedia in the science centre with these lessons explained again. We've got all these guides online about gravity turns, moon landings, basic aerodynamics, delta-v and the oberth effect. If these tutorials are accessible in the game then I think players would feel a lot more immersed.

Also a bonus gripe about the tutorials and especially the "to the mun part 2" tutorial. It would be nice to teach the players a stable and optimal way to fly. So when you let them fly from the mun to kerbin, teach them to get into an equatorial orbit first and then burn prograde at the right moment to launch themselves retrograde from the mun. Right now the tutorial teaches them to escape the mun in the most inefficient way.

[Red Iron Crown]

The question of why Squad posts what they do where they do is a bit off-topic here. Please give feedback about the tutorials or move along.

*removes moderator hat*

I really should try the tutorials again, haven't looked at them in ages.

[Louella]

I took a look at the asteroid redirection part 2 mission recently.

The spacecraft, has a large fuel tank, and four smaller fuel tanks, attached to the four engines that it has.

The four smaller tanks, although they have fuel lines running to the big tank, don't automatically refill for some reason.

That should probably be looked at, because it doesn't tell you about being able to pump fuel between tanks.

[kcs123]

One thing is nowhere explained in tutorials. How to determine engine efficiency ?

One thing is to calculate manualy TWR - engine weight/thrust ratio. But how much fuel it consumes. Is that engine better than other one ?

Answer is simple - higher ISP, more efficient engine is, found that accidentally searchin for something else on forums/wikipedia.

I think that noobs to game will have less trouble to figure out if that is explained somwhere trough tutorials.

There was some video on front page recently how to determine optimal speed over altitude for most fuel efficient way to reach orbit.

It will be good to be part of some tutorial too, along with ISP explain.

Space randevouz and docking is most difficult part to do for beginers. MechJeb mod provides a realy good help for beginers.

Although I have learned a lot playing KSP, I don't use much of autopiloting stuf from MJ, but some things are still mandatory for me.

I use MJ mostly for dV/TWR info while building craft in SPH/VAB and to help me in maneuvering node creation.

MJ don't perform well in atmosphere with FAR, so I don't use it for autopiloting and some of my crafts have misaligned thrust with CoM and MJ don't perform well with those crafts in space either. So, most of piloting stuff I do by keyboard

Still, MJ is mandatory for me to create maneuvering node for optimal hohman transfer for example. There should be good tutorial how to determine those nodes manualy.

Or even better, in one of future updates, if you have scientist as part of crew, you could ask him to do calculations for you instead of MJ.

And last thing that I can think of it on top of my head is how to determine right time and position for transfer to other planets.

I don't seek answers for those questions, but that was most troublesome parts of KSP for me when I started to play it.

[Wallygator]

So... Totally ready for 1.0. NOT.

Edit: credit for asking for help. But regardless it speaks volumes.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Wallygator

[Red Iron Crown]

So... Totally ready for 1.0. NOT.

Edit: credit for asking for help. But regardless it speaks volumes.

Speaks volumes that they think the tutorials need updating for 1.0? No one is saying it's currently ready for 1.0.

[tater]

Orbital rendezvous is clearly one of the more difficult aspects for noobs. That needs a tutorial for sure. The rocket building could use an explanation of where the CM should ideally be WRT the CP. If they add reentry shock heating (they should), they should do a reentry tutorial.

The Scenarios should be more fleshed out.

[Jouni]

I feel that tutorials shouldn't teach how to be efficient or give an impression that there's only one right way to do something. They should only convey the basic ideas, while leaving the player to experiment with the details.

[DanJourney]

Maybe it was just me, but the last time that I tested the tutorials, there were no maneuver nodes and a few other issues that made it completely unusable. I assume that the simulation for some reason reverted to a stage 0 career setup. I'm not sure if this was a one-time bug or specific to me, but I figure that a new player would be quite turned off by this.

[klgraham1013]

I'll gather my thoughts and post them on my Facebook.

[SpacedCowboy]

As so many others have said here, a good, basic tutorial for rendezvous and docking is sorely needed. I've been playing KSP for over a year now, and I still can't do it! I've watched dozens of videos on the subject and come away with dozens of different approaches and methods, so I just end up being confused. Without the ability to assemble a craft in orbit, you're not going anywhere, (interplanetary). With the exception of crash landing a probe on Eve and landing once on Duna, (and they're not coming back), I'm limited to going back and forth to the Mun and Minmus. So, yeah, rendezvous and docking should be a must.

[Kerano]

Orbital rendezvous is definitely one of the toughest things to do, because it requires so many steps. The basic requirements are as follows.

- Launch into an orbit roughly matching the plane of the target.

- Correct the orbit plane to match the target. (Or if target is around another body than Kerbin, bring apoapsis down just inside SOI for an elliptical orbit, and plane change at the highest altitude node.)

- Ensure your periapsis is just below the altitude of the target's orbit.

- Change your apoapsis to be just above the altitude of the target's orbit (~10%).

- Warp ahead, noting the change in distance to the target each time you hit periapsis. (It may be necessary to switch to the Tracking Station if the max warp level is too slow.)

- Stop the warp at periapsis when it looks like the target will be ahead of you at the next periapsis crossing.

- Bring your apoapsis down very slowly until one of the rendezvous markers gets below 0.2 km (ideally 0.0 km).

- Warp until just before the rendezvous marker.

- Change to target mode and find the retrograde position.

- The green marker indicating the target should now be directly behind you.

- Burn retrograde to the target when you are at your closest point (<200 m) until your relative velocity is <0.2 m/s.

There are many things that can go wrong along the way, including the game automatically switching out of orbital mode before you're ready to go to target mode - confusing the direction for burns.

Then if you want to dock you need careful advance planning:

- Both ships must have a docking port (or at least one must have a claw)

- Both ships should have a reaction wheel or command pod for sufficient torque.

- At least one ship should have a decent amount of monopropellant (ideally both ships).

- RCS thrusters should be placed with 4-way symmetry as close as possible to the center of mass on any ship with monopropellant.

If you're missing any of these ingredients, life is going to be a lot harder while trying to dock.

The process to dock following rendezvous is also tricky:

- Learn what the HNIJKL keys do when using RCS before you start. Also know that RCS is turned on/off by pressing R.

- Make sure your velocity relative to the target is <0.2 m/s and your distance is <200 m.

- Right click the docking port on your ship you want to use and select "Control from here".

- Right click the docking port on the other ship and select "Set as target".

- Make sure RCS is OFF, and use only torque (WASD keys) to turn both docking ports until they are facing one another. Switch between ships as many times as necessary using [].

- Turn on RCS (R key), and move forward (H key) towards the other docking port at 0.1 m/s for each 10 m of distance (e.g. 100 m = 1.0 m/s).

- The prograde marker and the target marker should be overlapping. If they are not, use sideways RCS (IJKL keys) to make them overlap. This may need repeating a few times as you approach the target.

- When you are getting close to your target (~10 m), use RCS to slow down (N key) to 0.1-0.2 m/s.

- When you are very close (~5 m), turn RCS off (R key) and use torque (WASD keys) to make sure you are pointing directly at the target docking port.

- If all goes well, the "magnetic" force from the other docking port will "catch" you and docking should follow.

- Note sometimes docking will not be completed until you toggle off SAS (T key) on both crafts.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Kerano

[numerobis]

There's tutorials?

I remember just flailing about until I got pointed to Scott Manley's videos by the same friends who told me about KSP.

[Amihan]

I can't recall which of the tutorials I played and how far I got, oops. There is one thing that stands out in my memory, though-- as a complete and utter newbie, the part where Gene nudges the controls and asks you to stabilize the rocket was really hard. To someone who isn't used to looking at the Navball, it's hard to tell if the button you're pressing is doing what you want it to when the thing is spinning all over the place and you're trying not to look at the rocket like you're instructed.

I'm not sure how it could have been done better. Maybe the rocket could be set spinning on one axis at a time that the player has to correct and then at the end Gene could nudge the controls? I think a note to push buttons gently might also be helpful.

I'll try to weasel my friends into trying the demo, and if I succeed I'll get back with something more useful, hopefully. I will say that the only other tutorial I've seen is Scott Manley's How To Minmus video and I have plenty of fun finding any other instruction online as I need it (spaceplanes!), so that was my stopping point for instruction, personally.

[Carsogen]

I tried the tutorials again recently after the NASA update and found quite a few technical issues, for example quick saving/loading freezes your ship in space. I'm not entirely sure if this is reproducable but I'll give it a go, and get a friend of mine to have their first go at KSP by doing the tutorials.

Off topic:

I agree with others who have wondered why the KSP team are seemingly neglecting to discuss things on the forum. I personally don't use Twitter or Reddit so it's frustrating to only get info from devs through the very kind people such as OP who make posts like this (Other than Devnote Tuesdays and general update announcements).

I know RIC already used the moderator hat to say that this isn't the topic of this thread but I just thought I'd try and emphasise to the devs that all of us here would love the chance to give feedback and suggestions, and all it would take is a copy-paste to include a huge group of basically free play-testers .

Hoping for the opportunity to help KSP reach its full potential,

Cas.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Carsogen