RocketBlam Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Topic of gender and gaming tends to send things into a downward spiral these days. I say we just step back and continue playing the game.This. I could not be more sick of these fake, manufactured controversies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moronwrocket Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 No, what I am saying is that the game should be appealing and inclusive to everyone who is predisposed to play it. Adding a flower garden or dinosaurs to KSP doesn't make it more appealing to anyone, it waters down the experience and tries to make it something it isn't. Adding female Kerbals is inclusive, paying homage to a history of women in science and spaceflight, while not watering down the experience. Some people are not scientifically inclined or interested in spaceflight and that's okay, they don't have to be nor does KSP have to appeal to them. This is what getting girls/women into STEM fields is about, removing traditional gender barriers and being inclusive, not making it "cutesy" trying to appeal to people who wouldn't really be interested the field in the first place.I think that the pool of players who would love to play KSP is larger than the pool who are predisposed to play it. I guess I am trying to go beyond inclusive to enticing, and you are against that. Fair enough. I gotta disagree with part of this point; If there were like, giant whales in Laythe's ocean you could follow around and study, or something in that vein, I don't see that as going against the whole 'spirit of discovery' thing KSP has as part of it's appeal. I do see what you mean, but I think there's often ways to fit such things into games that might seem at odds with the concept in such a way that it adds to the overall experience.THIS. Thanks for saying what I meant better than I could Captain Vlad.- - - Updated - - -In the US women statistically earn less then men. I have no doubt that there are still times women do not get hired, promoted, or as large a raise because of their gender.My wife and I are both computer engineers, no longer at the same company but we did start together. Years after we left, she was told by another woman engineer that the boss they had both worked for gave the women less raises than men "Because they already had an earner in their family." It's only now, after being in industry 18 years and working 5x as hard as me, that she's reached close to salary parity. She prefers playing Candy Crush Saga though to whatever my son and I are playing because she gets tired of our constant talking about it. Haven't been able to convince her that time playing KSP with us is family time yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOODY01 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 This. I could not be more sick of these fake, manufactured controversies.It is not a fake or manufactored. Ex: Gamersgate. A woman harassed by a gaming community because of her gender. Judging by some post this thread is not just about how many women play KSP for many people. But to why they may be reluctant to reveal themselves, reasons for the deviation, and equality in general. All relate to real issues that effect people in their day to day lives that exist.Your belief in that it is a manufactured issue leads me to believe one of two things:1. You do not judge people based on ... and it is hard for you imagine that others do.2. This is an non-issue to you because you do not care one way or the other and would rather just enjoy playing KSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LambertStrether Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) In the discussion on the 1.0 announcement I saw an educator with two daughters make a comment about how the lack of female kerbals turned his daughters and students away from the game. It makes a difference, and I think it's a great addition to the game, especially when you consider KSP's potential as an educational tool. It's also a step toward realism; since, you know, there are plenty of women who work for NASA. Edited January 30, 2015 by LambertStrether Clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGremlin Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 It is not a fake or manufactored. Ex: Gamersgate.I can't think of anything more fake or manufactured than the media narrative surrounding #gamergate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOODY01 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I can't think of anything more fake or manufactured than the media narrative surrounding #gamergate.So you are saying that there were not over a million tweets showing support and ones against ranging from just name calling to death threats? Website forums did not ban the topic and start closing threads?Anita Sakraseen did not recieve death and .... threats for her dicussing how woman or portrayed in video games or not included?Zoe Quinn and Brianna Woo did not recieve similar threats?These women did not have accounts hacked and personal information posted?These things happened and they happened because some gamers thought a game got an higher review then it should because the creator slept with one reviewer. It escalated because a woman decided to make a video discussing women and gaming around the same time.I am not sure what of the above is fake or manufactored. You may have some inside information and know what really happened. According to Police agencies and the FBI the threats and other harassment happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirrobert Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I can't think of anything more fake or manufactured than the media narrative surrounding #gamergate.It is still very much real for the people harrassed by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceGremlin Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 It is still very much real for the people harrassed by it.So gamergate supporters who have never harassed anyone have to eat the blame for every troll on twitter? Yet when gamergate supporters are doxxed and harassed there is deafening silence from the games media? Why are only the harassers signal boosted at every turn by journalists rather than the people in gamergate who actually want to have a discussion about journalistic integrity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Iron Crown Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Much as the discussion of ethics in gaming journalism is interesting, it's not one that's appropriate for the forum here. Please let the Gamergate topic drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GusTurbo Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Not going to talk about Gamergate. But to say that this "controversy" over whether female kerbals are an important addition is manufactured is pretty insulting to those who sincerely believe that it is important. It's not some sort of put-on meant to satisfy some idea of political correctness. Is it so hard to try to imagine why others would have different values? Edited January 31, 2015 by GusTurbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pthigrivi Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Man I really hope there are 3 new female orange suits. Given how long its taken really getting parity there would be a huge boost for almost no extra work. Has there been any word on this or is it just Valentina at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NecroBones Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Man I really hope there are 3 new female orange suits. Given how long its taken really getting parity there would be a huge boost for almost no extra work. Has there been any word on this or is it just Valentina at the moment?My guess is that they're adding female random kerbals with a female name-generator, and a Valentina character for KSC. I'd love to see a second set of orange suits, but I'm not holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norpo Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 My guess is that they're adding female random kerbals with a female name-generator, and a Valentina character for KSC. I'd love to see a second set of orange suits, but I'm not holding my breath. My guess is that Valentina Kerman will be another starting kerbal, my guess is a Pilot.There's no official SQUAD-made "Gene Kerman" account, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonfrog Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 simple way to do this without really changing anything int he game. Just add a variety of skins u can add to your rockets etc, doesn't change functionality. Then u ccould have pink unicorn coloured ships and components, so when engines fire, they poop out rainbows for thrust.Instead of parachutes a bubble is blown around the ship to slowly let it descend to the ground. Why don't we also add Santas reindeer as a propoulsion systme as a christmas special with a sleigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NecroBones Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 My guess is that Valentina Kerman will be another starting kerbal, my guess is a Pilot.Actually that's a good point. Valentina could be the new "orange suit". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen_Heart Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 simple way to do this without really changing anything int he game. Just add a variety of skins u can add to your rockets etc, doesn't change functionality. Then u ccould have pink unicorn coloured ships and components, so when engines fire, they poop out rainbows for thrust. Instead of parachutes a bubble is blown around the ship to slowly let it descend to the ground. Why don't we also add Santas reindeer as a propoulsion systme as a christmas special with a sleigh.I don't even have the words...Things don't have to be pink and covered in rainbows / unicorns to appeal to girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norpo Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I don't even have the words...I think he/she was being sarcastic.I hope. Edited January 31, 2015 by Norpo changed quote to have less chance of me being perceived as an @$$@*^&$ accidentally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOODY01 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 simple way to do this without really changing anything int he game. Just add a variety of skins u can add to your rockets etc, doesn't change functionality. Then u ccould have pink unicorn coloured ships and components, so when engines fire, they poop out rainbows for thrust.Instead of parachutes a bubble is blown around the ship to slowly let it descend to the ground. Why don't we also add Santas reindeer as a propoulsion systme as a christmas special with a sleigh.I am assuming this is satire. If not, I am curious what upsets you about the inclusion of female Kerbils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainKipard Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I don't get why this is even a question as it really doesn't matter.It only matters in a discussion about demographic targeting of games, but then the question occurs, why don't women enjoy this kind of stuff more. I'll never understand, probably because the answers are not forthcoming from anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Aramchek_ Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 It only matters in a discussion about demographic targeting of games, but then the question occurs, why don't women enjoy this kind of stuff more. I'll never understand, probably because the answers are not forthcoming from anywhere.I would however assume it's not because of the (current) lack of female character models, I don't believe that type of thing does make a huge difference for this type of game.There are genuine physiological differences between "male" and "female" in our species, I think the assumption that each gender should represent "50%" of any activity or game, or class, or whatever is, perhaps well intentioned, but likely not a realistic assumption.Equality is about choices, not being shoehorned in to any specific roles, so the assumption I have previously presented is actually stifling anyhow because it is simply yet another attempt to push people in to certain "roles". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhathron the Elf Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 It only matters in a discussion about demographic targeting of games, but then the question occurs, why don't women enjoy this kind of stuff more. I'll never understand, probably because the answers are not forthcoming from anywhere.To respond to this, a post I made earlier:It's offensive to assume there are no women playing KSP because of some irrational belief that they are just "not into science" or something like that. Of course there are women who play, maybe they just don't show up often or have better things to do. Although another certainly possible but horrible reason that there are few women on here is the simple fact that there are people in today's society trying to suppress women from doing things like being engineers and scientists and pilots (no pun intended), and try to drive them towards more "womanly" things, or rather, those things that society deems more suitable for women. Even when they are children, they may be expected to do things like that. For example, rather than working on some carpentry project, they might be encouraged to help out with cooking or cleaning. It's terrible, but it's sadly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Aramchek_ Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Although another certainly possible but horrible reason that there are few women on here is the simple fact that there are people in today's society trying to suppress women from doing things like being engineers and scientists and pilots (no pun intended), and try to drive them towards more "womanly" things, or rather, those things that society deems more suitable for women. Even when they are children, they may be expected to do things like that. For example, rather than working on some carpentry project, they might be encouraged to help out with cooking or cleaning. It's terrible, but it's sadly true.I do not actually believe this is true, there are a minority of people trying to do such things, but this whole "patriarchy" idea needs to die, it distracts from the real problems.There is no real, large scale conspiracy to suppress women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanamonde Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Let's not get into real world gender politics, please. That subject is far too big for our game forum, and is one of the things which seems to invariably result in rage posts, infractions, and threads getting locked. On-topic: so far, 20% of poll respondents have identified themselves as female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleshJeb Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 on-topic: So far, 20% of poll respondents have identified themselves as female.20/265 = 7.55% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GusTurbo Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) I do not actually believe this is true, there are a minority of people trying to do such things, but this whole "patriarchy" idea needs to die, it distracts from the real problems.There is no real, large scale conspiracy to suppress women.Sexism doesn't require an overt conspiracy to suppress women, only that peoples' choices, made consciously or unconsciously, in aggregate lead to women being disadvantaged. Anyway, I don't think adding female Kerbals will suddenly bring masses of girls to the game. But if just one young girl takes up the game, sees that spaceflight isn't just a boys' club, and gets into science as a result, I think it would be worth it. I think this game has great potential to show kids, boys and girls, how cool science can be. Edited February 1, 2015 by GusTurbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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