Should SQUAD post all KSP announcements on the official forum?

[Nathair]

Why? Different sources are suited for different things.

What kind of information is the official forum just not suitable for? Please be specific.

The question is not "Why?" the question is if my only news source for KSP is the KSP forum (as it seems to be for a great many people) then specifically what kind of information should I intentionally not be provided with and why not?

[worir4]

I've always felt that anything SQUAD posts on Twitter are off-the-cuff musings that shouldn't be taken as gospel, so I'm not too concerned that they're posting more frequently there than on the forums.

The weekly devnotes are a decent place for them to post on things they're more certain about.

I agree. Most the stuff they post off forum just ends up in the Tuesday dev notes in more detail any way. I don't think you will miss out on any thing if you only read the forums except maybe Maxmaps' cat videos.

[SelectHalfling0]

I agree. Most the stuff they post off forum just ends up in the Tuesday dev notes in more detail any way. I don't think you will miss out on any thing if you only read the forums except maybe Maxmaps' cat videos.

Which is one of the most important parts of KSP!

[Robotengineer]

I agree. Most the stuff they post off forum just ends up in the Tuesday dev notes in more detail any way. I don't think you will miss out on any thing if you only read the forums except maybe Maxmaps' cat videos.

I certainly would not be grieved if Maxmap's cat vids don't get on the forum. The issue is that Max posted on Twitter about engineers calculating DV but didn't give enough info for people to actually critique it.

[dryer_lint]

Asking the forum users if they think SQUAD should post on the forums.

Well, I agree that they should, but we're a bit biased, aren't we?

[KasperVld]

I've always felt that anything SQUAD posts on Twitter are off-the-cuff musings that shouldn't be taken as gospel

In the tweet/fb post Alguien refers to that's certainly true. I thought it might be a cool thing to see a Daily Kerbal post during the weekend that talks about real world spaceflight (and judging by the response there's definitely going to be one this Saturday!) but it may also be a lot of time spent on something that just doesn't work. It turns out people really like the idea and the plan is to post one of these articles on Saturday, so I can then use my spot on the dev notes on Tuesday to ask for opinions about it. It will appear on the forums just like any other Daily Kerbal article, and I will of course get feedback from everywhere before I decide if this is worth doing, or worth doing every week.

[basic.syntax]

I certainly would not be grieved if Maxmap's cat vids don't get on the forum. The issue is that Max posted on Twitter about engineers calculating DV but didn't give enough info for people to actually critique it.

The engineer dV details weren't ironed out to the point they were ready for our comments. Max wrote in this post. The question must back up a step: should Squad leak any thought of a feature they seriously plan to implement, on any media, before the feature details are ready for our comments?

This is separate-but-related to the poll question, which asks that Squad-sourced news, leaks, comments, polls, research questions - in other media - be simultaneously posted to these forums.

[r_rolo1]

(snip for brevity)

Kasper, first of all don't take personally what I'm going to say next: i know you love the game, the forums, the twitch chats and all of Kerbal related things. And also, I understand the different targets you want to reach with the different social media. But ...

First, let's be honest, the question the OP posed was if the information that SQUAD posted elsewhere also gets here by SQUAD own hand, being this the official KSP forums and all. while there are some that the forums become the only real source of intel, that is not what the OP asked. He simply asked that whoever is responsible for the SQUAD intel posting also posts in here and that the questions SQUAD asks elsewhere also get asked here. This a quite old gripe the forumers have with the SQUAD communications area for a long time, so I'll not blame you, but expecting that a forumer does that job for the community manager and bring all that stuff from elsewhere to here is IMHO simply a unprofessional approach ( since it means that it is expected that a unpaid person to do the work someone else is paid for ), and more, it tosses behind all of those people around the world that don't want to or can't access those social media ( I can easily point out a handful of countries that block or censor the social media you mention that most likely don't block these forums ).

That said ,asking on twitter about forum stuff without asking also in the forums is downright bizarre :/

P.S. No hard feelings, right, Kasper ?

[Esme]

I wanted to address the issue of these forums versus Reddit, Twitter and other channels.

If I were to vote on the poll, my vote would go to: "No, it'll end up on the forums", and here's why: we maintain connections with different parts of the community in different ways. We have several 'official' channels aside from these forums: the website, the Steam forums, KSP-TV and our Twitter, Facebook and Tumblr accounts for example; and then there are the 'unofficial' (for lack of a better term) communities on which we also have a permanent presence, the largest of which is the Reddit community, which is comparable to some of our official channels in size and activity. It is important to note that none of these channels will reach everyone in the community, and therefore we take great care to ensure that important information is posted everywhere, or at the very least in places where one could expect to find it. That does not mean however that all information gets posted in full in every channel, since they don't compare very well:

With respect though, when I first heard of KSP, I went to look for the KSP website, bought it, saw there was a forum, and joined it, expecting that it would be the place to be kept well informed about KSP. Not unreasonable, I feel. Now, as for other channels of communication, like Twitter etc (a) I have no interst in them, and ( they're not the KSP forum on the KSP website so why should I be expecting to find the latest KSP news in those other places rather than here? I hadn't even heard of Reddit until recently! (no interest in 'social media' sites, don't forget)

Now, first of all, I am not one of those upset with Squad. But then, I had no idea that there might be somethig to be upset about until earlier today. Still not worried because I'm mature (well past my sell-by date!) and so far as I can tell I've still been adequately informed by Squad about what's happening with the game here. But I do question the logic of your reasoning, Kaspervid. Yes, given there are these other channels out there, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to spread the word and stoke the interest out there. I can even accept that different channels of communication might suit different situations better (right tool for the job, horses for courses, etc).

But still - this is THE channel of communication that one first learns about when visiting the KSP website. I'm astonished that anyone wouldn't think this to be the appropriate place to first publish news relating to the future of the game - bearing in mind that publishing it here first doesnt preclude publishing it anywhere else afterwards.

Anyway, I've said my piece,I'll say no more on it, I'm not upset, just startled, and once again, thank you SQUAD more than I can say for such great work on the best computer game I have played to date (and I started playing games on computers about 40 years ago). :-)

[DuoDex]

Dear god, this again.

Last I checked Twitter (a loooong time ago to be honest), they had embeddable HTML gadgets. Perhaps we should have one.

[cpast]

Also, I don't think the alternative to the current situation is Squad posting all their little tidbits and thoughts on the forums. The alternative would be not posting them at all. They do post a fair amount on the forums; if they didn't post tidbits (they aren't "announcements," they're off-the-cuff remarks) anywhere, they would still be providing quite enough info here, IMO. I don't see how it's in any way an issue for a developer doing plenty of communication on their forum to say other things elsewhere, whether because they just feel like it (personal tweets), or whether it's because they've decided another place is a more appropriate spot (the tutorial discussion), or whether it's because they're actually engaging with players outside of the official forums and something comes up in a discussion there that they think should have some info shared (e.g. SA). The in-depth stuff all goes here; so do weekly posts on what everyone's doing, and random comments from time to time. I don't see why it's some terrible thing that a bit of extra information is posted elsewhere.

[razark]

(snipped)

Well said!

[klgraham1013]

Really? REALLY? So they are asking twitter what they want to see here on the Forum instead of asking the Forum?

Haha. Stop proving us right, Squad. It's making you look bad.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

TIL about a lot of things. Because I don't browse Reddit/4Chan/9Gag/Imgur/ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE

I didn't notice anything on the twitters, or the reddits becasue I don't use them

Unfair to all, that is

[DuoDex]

Y'all should really calm down. It's not a big thing. People have already made their opinions amply clear and presented nearly every possible argument on either side. Rehashing it won't do much.

*readies rocket named "THE HAMMER OF THROR" ingame*

[KasperVld]

Haha. Stop proving us right, Squad. It's making you look bad.

First of all I would like to ask you to keep things respectful, you are after all still a guest on a forum we run. I've addressed the point of that Tweet and Facebook post already. linky.

First, let's be honest, the question the OP posed was if the information that SQUAD posted elsewhere also gets here by SQUAD own hand, being this the official KSP forums and all. while there are some that the forums become the only real source of intel, that is not what the OP asked. He simply asked that whoever is responsible for the SQUAD intel posting also posts in here and that the questions SQUAD asks elsewhere also get asked here. This a quite old gripe the forumers have with the SQUAD communications area for a long time, so I'll not blame you, but expecting that a forumer does that job for the community manager and bring all that stuff from elsewhere to here is IMHO simply a unprofessional approach ( since it means that it is expected that a unpaid person to do the work someone else is paid for ), and more, it tosses behind all of those people around the world that don't want to or can't access those social media ( I can easily point out a handful of countries that block or censor the social media you mention that most likely don't block these forums ).

(esme I hope I answer your question here as well)

I understand the point the OP is trying to make here, that all info should be posted to the forums. The counter-point that I'm trying to make is that the forums are not the only official channel we have. Facebook, Twitter, KSP-TV and other places are also official channels we maintain. The form and depth of information often lead us to certain channels we can use: Maxmaps' dV announcement for example was a very short "snippet" of information, by which I don't want to downplay its importance, but it was a very short update with no further detailed information. Twitter is perfect for this sort of thing, and like I pointed out earlier these snippets won't work well on the forums.

Could we also post this to the forums? Yes, there's nothing technically stopping us from doing that, but why would the forums get all the information where other official channels don't? Well, as many people argued a lot of the 'hard core' fanbase resides here, but is that really enough of a reason to refrain from posting information exclusively elsewhere? We have a great community and this sort of information always finds its way onto the forums, where someone gets to have their 15 minutes of fame for discovering a new piece of the 1.0 puzzle, and I think that in itself is a good argument not to post everything here. I know many of you will disagree with me here (and in the past I probably would have disagreed with myself on this point), but the hunt for small bits of information regarding development is a great part of a community.

@r_rolo no hard feelings, I do enjoy discussions regardless of whether we agree or not.

[White Owl]

Here's what's really striking to me, a good illustration of just how wide is the gulf in attitude and understanding between this forum and those at Squad responsible for communication:

Consider that Squad not only saw no problem with seeking feedback from Reddit while simultaneously ignoring the identical feedback freely offered here, but Squad also evidently failed to anticipate that anybody here might be upset about it.

[DuoDex]

Building on what Kasper said: Can anyone give me an example in which information was posted somewhere not on the forums and did not find it's way onto the forums within, say, 24 hours?

[KasperVld]

Here's what's really striking to me, a good illustration of just how wide is the gulf in attitude and understanding between this forum and those at Squad responsible for communication:

Consider that Squad not only saw no problem with seeking feedback from Reddit while simultaneously ignoring the identical feedback freely offered here, but Squad also evidently failed to anticipate that anybody here might be upset about it.

You're making an assumption that the feedback that was already on the forum was never included. Now, I wasn't involved in this particular instance so I won't claim the opposite, but I don't think it's fair to make that assumption either side of the scale.

[Nemrav]

Y'all should really calm down. It's not a big thing. People have already made their opinions amply clear and presented nearly every possible argument on either side. Rehashing it won't do much.

*readies rocket named "THE HAMMER OF THROR" ingame*

lol

But really, you guys are saying that they didn't post critical info on the forum such as delta V on the forum, even though it only got officially confirmed on the forum, how-so ? the twitter post was "rhymes with this" and then on dev note tuesdays Kasper stated that delta v was confirmed...

As for the forum article thing, wouldn't a logical thing to do be to simply ask on the instant reply media the opinion, and then if it passes that stage, progress with the plan... How many people look at the twitch and video updates in the daily ? yet imagine if they took those down, people would be in a uproar.... would people skip "Rocket report Saturday" ?

edit: note to Kasper.... why are you bothering with this thread anymore ?

edit2: ted is online... so much for not paying attention to forums... again..

Edited February 12, 2015 by Nemrav

[klgraham1013]

First of all I would like to ask you to keep things respectful, you are after all still a guest on a forum we run. I've addressed the point of that Tweet and Facebook post already. linky..

I appreciate the effort you've been putting in. Don't get me wrong.

...but asking your audience whether they would like a new Daily Kerbal would be best done through all your official outlets. This includes Facebook, Reddit, and the official forum. Especially since the official forum has a poll function and the said Daily Kerbal would be posted on the official forum.

Asking your audience their opinion should include as much of your audience as possible. That's my opinion though. I don't work in marketing or analysis or anything related to polling.

edit: You are right to one extant. I need to take a break from this conversation. It's getting under my skin way more than it should.

Edited February 11, 2015 by klgraham1013

[White Owl]

In this one particular case, I believe it is perfectly fair. The devnotes stated feedback was sought from Reddit, and did not mention these forums. It looks very clear to me. If that perception is in error, the error began either with the program to collect feedback or with the communication in that devnote. Either way, it needs fixed.

Concerning the point of hunting for information being fun, and good for a community... I couldn't possibly disagree more, and I'll leave it at that. Maybe that attitude is part of how people can tolerate looking at the godawful mess that is Reddit, and I simply am incapable of relating.

[m4v]

I don't think Maxmap or a dev saying something in twitter should be taken as an announcement, is their damn twitter account, if they feel more comfortable talking users in twitter then so be it. All the official announcements and content with substance (like Harv's articles) are in the forums, so I don't why some forum users are making such a big deal out of it. Because you know how it goes, if the forums make such an uproar every time a Squad member makes a tweet then he will just shut up rather than post in the forums.

[r_rolo1]

I understand the point the OP is trying to make here, that all info should be posted to the forums. The counter-point that I'm trying to make is that the forums are not the only official channel we have. Facebook, Twitter, KSP-TV and other places are also official channels we maintain. The form and depth of information often lead us to certain channels we can use: Maxmaps' dV announcement for example was a very short "snippet" of information, by which I don't want to downplay its importance, but it was a very short update with no further detailed information. Twitter is perfect for this sort of thing, and like I pointed out earlier these snippets won't work well on the forums.

Ok, you see all of those as official channels. From that point of view, your position is defensible and actually makes sense. That does not mean that I agree with if things are or should be that way, but I digress ...

Could we also post this to the forums? Yes, there's nothing technically stopping us from doing that, but why would the forums get all the information where other official channels don't? Well, as many people argued a lot of the 'hard core' fanbase resides here, but is that really enough of a reason to refrain from posting information exclusively elsewhere? We have a great community and this sort of information always finds its way onto the forums, where someone gets to have their 15 minutes of fame for discovering a new piece of the 1.0 puzzle, and I think that in itself is a good argument not to post everything here. I know many of you will disagree with me here (and in the past I probably would have disagreed with myself on this point), but the hunt for small bits of information regarding development is a great part of a community.

Oh, the discovery mini-game theory. Been there, done that ( some people here might know me from moderating in a very different game forums a long long time ago ). It only works as long as you keep putting new people in the forums, since the others that stay get tired of that fast. Also, it can produce some "rage against the machine" by the forum members that will ( not may, will ) sooner or later consider that they are being gamed by the company marketing departement with possible nasty results in terms of bad rep ... all in all , it is a discussible marketing strategy with not so good overall results in my experience.

@r_rolo no hard feelings, I do enjoy discussions regardless of whether we agree or not.

Well as I posted above, while I've never been in a marketing positiong like you are, I've been in a mod position in some forums very much alike these ones ... and I've seen this kind of thread happening more than once. In my experience it meant bad things in terms of the game rep in a couple of months later ( because the "hard core" forumers simply refused to endorse ( and actually discouraged people of buying ) the newest installment they were hyped with that exact discovery mini-game ( the fact that the game ended being subpar at release surely helped, but it was not the only factor ). I just don't want to see that soap opera again, one time is enough thank you very much

Building on what Kasper said: Can anyone give me an example in which information was posted somewhere not on the forums and did not find it's way onto the forums within, say, 24 hours?

Building on what you said, if the info is going to get here in 24h anyway, why not just post it in here anyway ?

[FlowerChild]

I'm not sure if this point has been made before, but the only way in which I've felt impacted by this is in that it made me wonder "are the devs actually reading any feedback on the forums, or are they going elsewhere for it? Is there any point posting any feedback here if it is going to be ignored?"

I don't know the answer to that, but I think that question being asked can be rather damaging, and it might be one of the causes behind people getting frustrated here. I think that a lot of the community revolves around the impression that player feedback matters to Squad, and the implication that what many of us thought to be the primary means of communicating that feedback, here on these forums, may actually be one of the worst places to do it, is a tough pill to swallow. Perhaps some of us then feel frustrated that the times we made the effort to provide well thought out feedback about the game, we may have been directing it straight to the circular file, especially when the more effective means of communicating seem to involve frequenting places like 4Chan that many of us likely don't want to have anything to do with.

We have a nice safe moderated forum that Squad has setup for us here, where a certain amount of civility is guaranteed, but going to an environment that seems to operate on the principle of "we support totally free and open unmoderated communication, but you may have to endure death threats if you don't agree with the popular point of view", seems to be the preferable method to actually be heard.

I can also see Squad's side of this in that I think it likely that there's so much traffic here on the forums that they may find it impossible to sort through the static and get to the actual signal. As a result, they may have a fairly natural tendency to move to other means of communication where the volume of traffic is more manageable.

Edited February 12, 2015 by FlowerChild