Should SQUAD post all KSP announcements on the official forum?

[basic.syntax]

On the 'treasure hunt' for information: Movies and TV are frequently promoted this way, with different clips, still photos, and writer/director/cast member quotes placed in different media. Some media outlets often get the exclusive right to host a particular thing 'first' for a short time. Some people may win a contest, and get flown to Hollywood, where they can ask questions of the creators.

A lot of kickstarter games these days offer direct communication with the developers, on their highest contribution tiers.

It may be irritating to completion-ists who want to get all the info in one convenient place, but marketing is done this way again and again, year after year. Fuel for the hype-train

[razark]

First of all I would like to ask you to keep things respectful...

Respect is like trust. Hard to earn, easy to lose, harder to regain.

...discovering a new piece of the 1.0 puzzle...

Puzzle? Why should informing people about your product be a puzzle?

Building on what Kasper said: Can anyone give me an example in which information was posted somewhere not on the forums and did not find it's way onto the forums within, say, 24 hours?

The delta-v thing was posted on SA three days before anyone quoted it here on the forum. This was prior to the twitter announcement.

[White Owl]

Building on what Kasper said: Can anyone give me an example in which information was posted somewhere not on the forums and did not find it's way onto the forums within, say, 24 hours?

How about the source of the present drama? At what point was this forum informed the devs wanted feedback on Reddit? Honest question; I don't know the answer.

[klgraham1013]

I'm not sure if this point has been made before, but the only way in which I've felt impacted by this is in that it made me wonder "are the devs actually reading any feedback on the forums, or are they going elsewhere for it? Is there any point posting any feedback here if it is going to be ignored?"

I've considering making a long post on my opinion of career mode, but there's a part of me that wonders whether the Suggestions and Development forum is even being considered. I think there may be evidence to support both sides of the argument, but the fact that I'm even asking it does not bod well.

How about the source of the present drama? At what point was this forum informed the devs wanted feedback on Reddit? Honest question; I don't know the answer.

Here's the thread TriggerAu made and here's the original Reddit post.

[Alizerin]

Here's what's really striking to me, a good illustration of just how wide is the gulf in attitude and understanding between this forum and those at Squad responsible for communication:

Consider that Squad not only saw no problem with seeking feedback from Reddit while simultaneously ignoring the identical feedback freely offered here, but Squad also evidently failed to anticipate that anybody here might be upset about it.

If the feedback is identical, what difference does it make?

It seems reasonable the developers could have read the feedback on the forums, cross-referenced stuff on Reddit and other areas, and fixed things that seemed to bubble up to the top over and over again. Maybe they gave Reddit credit because that's the last poll the ran, but really the forums had a big impact.

Is this really just about people getting angry about not getting an e-pat on the head?

[FlowerChild]

I've considering making a long post on my opinion of career mode, but there's a part of me that wonders whether the Suggestions and Development forum is even being considered. I think there may be evidence to support both sides of the argument, but the fact that I'm even asking it does not bod well.

Yup, other than living dangerously in even daring to speak poorly of 4Chan (yay for freedom!), that's the point I was trying to make with my previous post. The point at which Squad's official channel that they've setup for communication with the community becomes suspect as potentially being one of the worst places to actually do it, is also the point at which those channels of communication begin to break down.

If they're trying to avoid the massive traffic here, then this strategy may be ultimately self defeating, as people will tend to naturally flock to whatever means of communication stands the most chance of actually getting them heard. At that point, the well moderated channels they've setup here cease to be of any real purpose.

I'm honestly not sure what the solution would be as it's a complex system involving a fair amount of chaos given the number of individuals involved. With the small amount of experience I have dealing with mass internet communication, on a much smaller scale than Squad has to, the only thing I've found works decently is to delegate responsibility to a bunch of people to kick interesting posts up the chain of command to be brought to the attention of devs, as I strongly suspect the volume of traffic on these forums is too large for any individual to read, let alone consider appropriately.

[klgraham1013]

Is this really just about people getting angry about not getting an e-pat on the head?

...nope...

[FlowerChild]

If the feedback is identical, what difference does it make?

I think the important part is not the largely identical mass of popular opinion, but the individual voices of dissent that may be mixed in with it and still present a compelling argument to their point of view. Moving to a different medium is certainly no guarantee of different opinions, especially in cases where a medium may actually wind up discouraging the free exchange of ideas due to creating a threatening environment.

To quote one of my favorite NOFX songs:

Sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions.

Is this really just about people getting angry about not getting an e-pat on the head?

Given that being heard is almost the entire point of any form of communication (unless a person is fond of talking to themselves), I don't think the desire to know there's at least a chance that a message will actually reach the intended audience is symbolic of any form of ego. It's just indicative of a desire to know there's any point to your own actions.

Edited February 12, 2015 by FlowerChild

[White Owl]

I live in my house with my family. It's my job to cook dinner every day.

My good friends live a few houses over. I frequently invite them to my house for dinner with my family. It's a good time.

Then I started asking my good friends about what we should have for dinner, and didn't ask my family's opinion. My friends have good opinions, and the meal is still good... but my family living in my own house might wonder why I didn't talk to them about the meal. If I do it several times, they might start to resent it. If I tell my family to go talk to the neighbors to find out about the dinner plans... Well, that would be a pretty horrible way to treat my family.

No, it's not an "e-pat on the head."

Edited February 12, 2015 by White Owl
spelling/grammar

[Alizerin]

I think the important part is not the largely identical mass of popular opinion, but the individual voices of dissent that may be mixed in with it and still present a compelling argument to their point of view. Moving to a different medium is certainly no guarantee of different opinions, especially in cases where a medium may actually wind up discouraging the free exchange of ideas due to creating a threatening environment.

To be fair: you just explained the main problem with the forums right now, and gave a very compelling argument for why the Devs may be looking elsewhere. Looking at the two threads asking for feedback, the difference is startling. One is filled with lots of useful ideas and helpful feedback. The other is mostly filled with gripes, complaints about how KSP isn't ready for 1.0, individuals saying they haven't used the tutorials in a long time, and to be fair - a few possibly useful bits of feedback.

I feel these forums have probably turned into a threatening environment for the devs. Every day I see examples of people on this forum taking more and more antagonistic stances against Squad. And I don't get it.

Given that being heard is almost the entire point of any form of communication (unless a person is fond of talking to themselves), I don't think the desire to know there's at least a chance that a message will actually reach the intended audience is symbolic of any form of ego. It's just indicative of a desire to know there's any point to your own actions.

I agree totally. That might be what the Devs are thinking when they get positive responses on a Reddit post, and effective crickets (at best) and attacks (at worst) on the Forum post.

To be fair: I'm kind of new here. I don't post very often, but I lurk a lot. Maybe there's some nuance I'm missing, but I for one am getting kind of tired of the general attitude I read on the forums.

The main change should start with us, the community, and we can start by not caring how the Developers get information they are looking for, and instead try being happy with the results. Every bit on preview information we are given, be it by Tweet, Reddit post, Facebook message, blogpost, Twitch preview, etc. is a gift given to us by the Developers. We should say "thanks", and enjoy it. Yes, we can be critical, or bring up things we're worried about, but there's a difference between a critique and bitching and honestly it feels more like bitching lately.

KSP is successful because of the Developers interaction with the Kerbal community...we shouldn't make them regret it.

[FlowerChild]

To be fair: you just explained the main problem with the forums right now, and gave a very compelling argument for why the Devs may be looking elsewhere. Looking at the two threads asking for feedback, the difference is startling. One is filled with lots of useful ideas and helpful feedback. The other is mostly filled with gripes, complaints about how KSP isn't ready for 1.0, individuals saying they haven't used the tutorials in a long time, and to be fair - a few possibly useful bits of feedback.

Yup, and as I said myself about understanding why Squad may be seeking mediums of communication with less traffic, the signal to noise ratio may be a big part of that, so we agree on that point as well.

I think a big part of the increasing negative attitude you may be (quite correctly) perceiving on these forums may be directly related to this issue actually: the sensation that the community is being slowly cut out of the loop and becoming less relevant in how the game is developing. I think that's potentially amplified by the impending "release version" of KSP, as we're beginning to feel like there's now a clicking clock on how long we have to provide feedback and be heard.

Again, not certain if that sensation is accurate, but I do think it's present in a rather large volume as illustrated by this thread, and is at least implied in some of the more nasty comments I've seen directed at Squad. In fact, I think I've watched individuals essentially become more and more nasty as they seem to get more and more frustrated due to feeling they're not being heard, when they used to be rather reasonable individuals.

Community management, especially on this scale, certainly isn't easy.

The main change should start with us, the community

While I might even agree with you on principle on that point, I think trying to convince a mass of people to shift direction and behave in a different manner might be an overly idealistic approach to things

Edited February 12, 2015 by FlowerChild

[SpaceHips]

Yup, other than living dangerously in even daring to speak poorly of 4Chan...

We're having fun watching you talk about us, just so you know.

If you're interested in why we get information before other sources first, you might like to know that it's because many of us are friends with the team and speak to them directly.

Asking the right questions often gets you a good answer.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, how are things going back at the minecraft modding scene?

Are you still doing that, or is there too much drama these days?

Edited February 12, 2015 by Kerboa

[r_rolo1]

@ Alizerin

You are comparing apples to oranges. First of all there is a whole Suggestions subforum in here, that actually is filled with *gasp* threads with suggestions. More, even if it was just the two threads, the situations are far from equivalent: in one the devs of the game asked for suggestions, in the other someone made the gracious favour of pointing that the devs had gone elsewhere to ask for input ( that most likely they already had given liberally in the sugestions and development threads ). You can't really expect that the reactions would be the same ...

[basic.syntax]

Moving to a different medium is certainly no guarantee of different opinions....

but it can be. Reddit may contain a greater number of casual or non-players who've heard about KSP, than these forums. Here, people who have registered to post, have made a conscious choice to affiliate with a particular product. Squad made a choice to start an improve-the-tutorial research thread there. That says nothing about what reading they may have done on these forums before starting up the Reddit thing. But they do not count these forums out by any stretch, offering by far the best and most detailed info about the game's progress, to these forums.

[FlowerChild]

We're having fun watching you talk about us, just so you know.

Thanks for proving my point then, as that's not the least bit menacing.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, how are things going back at the minecraft modding scene?

Are you still doing that, or is there too much drama these days?

Or that.

Edited February 12, 2015 by FlowerChild

[Robotengineer]

I agree that it's a sensation of being cut out of the loop. Whether that is actually happening, I am unsure. It seems like over the past few months the CM hasn't been on to answer questions or address concerns and moderators seem to be always on the side of Squad and hardly criticize Squad. (With the exception of NathanKell and former mod stupid_chris). It seems Squad is turning against us, whether they are, or the KSP community has a high rate of paranoia, I do not know.

[hoojiwana]

Thanks for proving my point then, as that's not the least bit menacing.

Oooooh nooo the big bad bogyeman from 4chan is going to do bad things!

[FlowerChild]

Oooooh nooo the big bad bogyeman from 4chan is going to do bad things!

Considering that members of the extended 4Chan community have been behaving in ways as of late that are so extreme it's actually become news worthy, I don't think that's an unfounded fear, no.

[hoojiwana]

Considering that members of the extended 4Chan community have been behaving in ways as of late that are so extreme it's actually become news worthy, I don't think that's an unfounded fear, no.

That's fair enough I suppose, but there is still a lot of overreaction going on to a community that consists of maybe 40 people at the most.

[GusTurbo]

I've changed my mind. They should be more consistent about posting important things here, if only to avoid boring threads like this one cropping up.

[basic.syntax]

I agree that it's a sensation of being cut out of the loop.....It seems Squad is turning against us, whether they are, or the KSP community has a high rate of paranoia, I do not know.

I vote paranoia. Absence of Squad posts here can have explanations beyond that dark cloud. If Squad was "turning against," Kasper would have begun his postings in this critical thread much more harshly, if at all. They could decide that their time is better spent working on the product, than taking the time to write Devnote Tuesday - by far the most detailed, weekly publication about KSP. In the days before kickstarter and early access... games were simply... released - or not released, and ranted about afterward; no years of player feedback going on beforehand

[RobotsAndSpaceships]

Considering that members of the extended 4Chan community have been behaving in ways as of late that are so extreme it's actually become news worthy, I don't think that's an unfounded fear, no.

Thanks /b/ for making everyone on 4chan look bad. Not even half the site is as bad as people make it out to be. /b/s nonsense just blows it out of proportion.

[FlowerChild]

Thanks /b/ for making everyone on 4chan look bad. Not even half the site is as bad as people make it out to be. /b/s nonsense just blows it out of proportion.

I'm sure there are some very nice individuals on 4Chan. However at a certain point a symbol becomes so tainted by the actions of people that have displayed it in the past, that there's no separating the symbol from the historical associations.

I am not lying or exaggerating in saying that the previous "we are watching" post has made me physically afraid in a very real way due to my past interactions with that community, so I think it's a good time for me to step out of this conversation.

[PDCWolf]

I vote paranoia. Absence of Squad posts here can have explanations beyond that dark cloud. If Squad was "turning against," Kasper would have begun his postings in this critical thread much more harshly, if at all. They could decide that their time is better spent working on the product, than taking the time to write Devnote Tuesday - by far the most detailed, weekly publication about KSP. In the days before kickstarter and early access... games were simply... released - or not released, and ranted about afterward; no years of player feedback going on beforehand

As someone who joined the forums on april 2014, you should know the huge fight it was had to make the developers write those 1 to 3 paragraphs of info that still lack in detail and content. Originally they were only one to two sentences, and they went through multiple refining processes pointed out by this community (and some others), to be what they are now, and they still lack a lot.

Also, the fact that people speak badly of 4chan, yet they interact with members of the 4chan community without knowing it shows a high level of ignorance and prejudice.

Back on topic, I don't like the "I like to target certain playerbase so I'm going to survey THIS PLACE IN PARTICULAR", it speaks badly of the dev team, which seems to be thinking too low or too high about a community in particular (i.e. hurr durr we go 2 reddit because we want casuals) and it also makes it seems as if they want to be right all the time by getting answers from a group that has the answers they want to hear (even if not the case).

Edited February 12, 2015 by PDCWolf

[RobotsAndSpaceships]

I'm sure there are some very nice individuals on 4Chan. However at a certain point a symbol becomes so tainted by the actions of people that have displayed it in the past, that there's no separating the symbol from the historical associations.

I am not lying or exaggerating in saying that the previous "we are watching" post has made me physically afraid in a very real way due to my past interactions with that community, so I think it's a good time for me to step out of this conversation.

Dude, you're fine, he was referring to the affairs on the forums. Watching them, not you.