[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[ModZero]

That's called MKS

Fair enough. Anyway, I like the idea from the start, and I like it more the more I think about it. Right now, a single large can of food is pretty much enough to send a Kerbal to infinity and beyond. That's not fun from the gameplay perspective (it kinda verges on making life support irrelevant), and "real life" perspective (MREs get tossed after five years even if unopened, for example, and even deep frozen food has it's best-by date). A mission to places beyond Mars would pretty much have either a very energy-intensive trajectory or a way of replenishing the supplies, OKS style, with dedicated people whose job is to hold the wave of entropy.

You got quite a bit of negative feedback in the beginning, so I'd like to make note that some people love the idea and think you should make it stock. Also add the "longing for Kerbin" face expression to the Kerbals. Maybe a terminal opened on a "sorry, can't wait for you for five decades" email in the stock cabin ;-)

EDIT: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA195871 interestink.

Edited August 25, 2015 by ModZero

[shynung]

I just looked at Kerbal Planetary Base System. They have a special greenhouse part containing algae that converts mulch and ore into fertilizer. I'm working on a part config that adds a new part, borrowing the small greenhouse texture, that does just that.

EDIT: Here's the thing I saw. Looks pretty neat.

Edited August 29, 2015 by shynung

[Bloody_looser]

Played around a bit more with the mod.

LS timer on an empty ship out of supplies resets when going on EVA.

While kerbal's timer goes on and he is actually starving.

Is it a bug or a feature? Or I screwed something up?

[monstah]

RoverDude, great mod in it's simplicity I must say!

I was wondering about something which I haven't manually read though all those pages of this thread.

Crewed command parts all have internal models textured showing 'supplies/O2/snacks/etc'.

From a stock roleplay perspective, can we assume that the crewed command parts weight already accounts for having X amount of basic supplies included in their weight?

If so, how much would the min supply nr per Kerbal be, if one would make a MM cfg adding supply/mulch resource and adjusting part weight accordingly??

I'm working one one myself. I'll share it here when it's properly balanced.

Thanks for these numbers! I ran some quick tests and got "close enought for my purposes to 1 per day" as results, these are definetely better.

Not "properly balanced" yet, but here's what I've been using this far:

//----------------------------------------------------------------
//Supplies to pods

@PART[*]:HAS[!RESOURCE[Supplies],#CrewCapacity[>0]]:BEFORE[USILifeSupport]
{
	supplyMult = #$/CrewCapacity$
	baseSupplyAmount = 1.08
	baseMulchAmount = 0.216
}

@PART[*]:HAS[#supplyMult[*],@MODULE[ModuleCommand],#vesselType[Ship]]:BEFORE[USILifeSupport]
{
	@supplyMult != 2
	@supplyMult *= 10 
}
@PART[*]:HAS[#supplyMult[*],@MODULE[ModuleCommand],#vesselType[Lander]]:BEFORE[USILifeSupport]
{
	@supplyMult != 2
	@supplyMult *= 2 
}
@PART[*]:HAS[#supplyMult[*],@MODULE[ModuleCommand],#vesselType[Rover]]:BEFORE[USILifeSupport] //in stock, that's the external seat
{
	@supplyMult != 2
	@supplyMult *= 1
}
@PART[*]:HAS[#supplyMult[*],!MODULE[ModuleCommand]]:BEFORE[USILifeSupport]
{
	@supplyMult != 1
	@supplyMult *= 35
}

@PART[*]:HAS[#supplyMult[*],!RESOURCE[Supplies]]:FOR[USILifeSupport]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Supplies
		amount = #$/supplyMult$
		maxAmount = #$/supplyMult$
		@amount *= #$/baseSupplyAmount$
		@maxAmount *= #$/baseSupplyAmount$
	}
}
@PART[*]:HAS[#supplyMult[*],!RESOURCE[Mulch]]:FOR[USILifeSupport]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Mulch
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = #$/supplyMult$
		@maxAmount *= #$/baseMulchAmount$
	}
}

@PART[*]:HAS[#supplyMult[*]]:FINAL
{
	!supplyMult = DELETE
	!baseSupplyAmount = DELETE
	!baseMulchAmount = DELETE
}

I worked on the premise that duration intended for missions scaled on crew size, which then multiplied by crew size to determine total amounts, with the power varying on part type.

[shynung]

Here's what I made. It's a part config for the fertilizer greenhouse. I sent an earlier version to RoverDude via PM, but apparently he never read it. Ah well.

//Cultivator part config by shynung, models by RoverDude
//MIT License

PART:NEEDS[USILifeSupport]
{
	name = USILS_OrganicCultivator
	module = Part
	author = RoverDude, shynung
	rescaleFactor = 1
	node_attach = 0,-.15,0,0,-1,0
	node_stack_bottom = 0,-.25,0,0,-1,0
	TechRequired = survivability
	entryCost = 1000
	cost = 150
	category = Utility
	subcategory = 0
	title = AutoFertol Organic Cultivator	
	manufacturer = ShyTech Engineering
	description = Using specially-prepared vegetables genetically-engineered to thrive in every type of soil, the AutoFertol Organic Cultivator is capable of converting a mixture of mulch and ore into a highly-effective fertilizer compatible for use in greenhouses. WARNING: Plantations included are NOT designed to be edible. Consume at your own risk.
	attachRules = 1,1,0,0,0
	mass = 1.5
	dragModelType = default
	maximum_drag = 0.25
	minimum_drag = 0.25
	angularDrag = .5
	crashTolerance = 45
	breakingForce = 280
	breakingTorque = 280
	maxTemp = 1700
	bulkheadProfiles = size1,srf

	MODEL
	{
		model = UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport/Parts/Greenhouse
	}

	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Mulch
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 100
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Fertilizer
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 100
	}

		MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleResourceConverter
		ConverterName = OrganicCultivator
		tag = OrganicCultivator
		StartActionName = Start Cultivation
		StopActionName = Stop Cultivation

		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Mulch
			Ratio =  0.00005
		}
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Ore
			Ratio =  0.000005
		}
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = ElectricCharge
			Ratio = 3
		}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = Fertilizer
			Ratio =  0.000075
			DumpExcess = False
		}
	}
}

If my calculations are correct, it should convert Mulch and Ore into Fertilizer at a 2:2:3 mass ratio, respectively. Models are borrowed from the small greenhouse (Nom-o-Matic 5000).

If you want it, just save it as a .cfg file in the GameData folder. It should appear in the Utilities tab.

[RoverDude]

Heya It's not that I did not read your PM.

The reason I do not have a fertilizer converter is that it's meant to be hauled in in the case of out of the box USI-LS, and would be one of the really large converters in the case of MKS/OKS (for some serious balance reasons). i.e. the mass tax for something the size of a 1.5m tank that takes in Ore would be vastly superior to the cultivators in UKS.

[mhoram]

Is there a reason why fertilizer is much cheaper than supplies?

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Supplies
   unitCost = 15
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Fertilizer
   unitCost = 5
}

Since it provides a much longer life-support, I would have expected that it is also more expensive than regular supplies.

[shynung]

Heya It's not that I did not read your PM.

The reason I do not have a fertilizer converter is that it's meant to be hauled in in the case of out of the box USI-LS, and would be one of the really large converters in the case of MKS/OKS (for some serious balance reasons). i.e. the mass tax for something the size of a 1.5m tank that takes in Ore would be vastly superior to the cultivators in UKS.

Oh, sorry. Message read notification did not work as intended. Still seemed to be unread from my end.

Anyway, if that's the case, may I suggest some way to turn Ore straight to Mulch? I could simply write an MM config to make the stock ISRU converter do that, if that's preferable.

[RoverDude]

Oh, sorry. Message read notification did not work as intended. Still seemed to be unread from my end.

Anyway, if that's the case, may I suggest some way to turn Ore straight to Mulch? I could simply write an MM config to make the stock ISRU converter do that, if that's preferable.

At that point you might as well just crank up the conversion rate

100% self sufficiency is incredibly hard (and downright impossible in space), we cover this in UKS via resource overlap (and water is usually a bear) and complex/heavy parts. I would not want that as part of the basic USI-LS mod (at this time).

Is there a reason why fertilizer is much cheaper than supplies?

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Supplies
   unitCost = 15
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Fertilizer
   unitCost = 5
}

Since it provides a much longer life-support, I would have expected that it is also more expensive than regular supplies.

It's also a catalyst and still requires those original supplies to be purchased.

A sack of plant food is significantly cheaper than a sack of compact, nutritious food.

[cantab]

The reason I do not have a fertilizer converter is that it's meant to be hauled in in the case of out of the box USI-LS

Have you thought about adding bigger fertilizer tanks? At the moment if I want a station or base that can be occupied for a long time I'll have to spam minipaks, not good for the part count.

[RoverDude]

Have you thought about adding bigger fertilizer tanks? At the moment if I want a station or base that can be occupied for a long time I'll have to spam minipaks, not good for the part count.

MKS has some pretty massive ones, and the Kontainers folder can be used stand-alone.

[goldenpsp]

Anyway, if that's the case, may I suggest some way to turn Ore straight to Mulch? I could simply write an MM config to make the stock ISRU converter do that, if that's preferable.

So go make a mod. USI-LS works fine as is, and is well balanced with Roverdudes MKS mod, which has the IRSU --> mulch parts. If you don't want to use that you are free to make your own USI-LS add on mod, just as people have done for TAC-LS.

[shynung]

At that point you might as well just crank up the conversion rate

100% self sufficiency is incredibly hard (and downright impossible in space), we cover this in UKS via resource overlap (and water is usually a bear) and complex/heavy parts. I would not want that as part of the basic USI-LS mod (at this time).

Alright then.

So go make a mod. USI-LS works fine as is, and is well balanced with Roverdudes MKS mod, which has the IRSU --> mulch parts. If you don't want to use that you are free to make your own USI-LS add on mod, just as people have done for TAC-LS.

Already did. Posted the config for all to copy-paste.

Edited August 31, 2015 by shynung

[RoverDude]

As noted, nothing personal at all, just that there's a really specific balance I have in mind for this. And (more importantly for me, likely for other folks as well), this is meant to properly balance with and dovetail straight into MKS. Or of course it can be used stand alone.

Granted, you're more than welcome to distribute alternate parts, alternate configs, and what have you. But I would not consider adding them into the core mod if they are going to unbalance or break other bits in the constellation that I maintain.

[shynung]

As noted, nothing personal at all, just that there's a really specific balance I have in mind for this. And (more importantly for me, likely for other folks as well), this is meant to properly balance with and dovetail straight into MKS. Or of course it can be used stand alone.

No offense taken. If you wish to keep your mod balances, I won't push it too much, other than offering an alternative.

To be honest, I'm intrigued with the idea of self-sufficient space missions, but the MKS/OKS is a tad too complicated for me to handle. This is just something I made to fill-in-the-blank on mission sustainability.

I appreciate your permission to redistribute anything I tweaked off your mod, but I haven't had much other than configs to show off. Maybe if I had more assets, then I'll release something much better than a simple config.

I'll just leave the config file here, as it was meant to work with USI-LS. Feel free to hide it, show it off, or just simply linking it. I won't be working on that anymore for the time being.

In other news, I'm making a mod! Check my sig.

[RoverDude]

No offense taken. If you wish to keep your mod balances, I won't push it too much, other than offering an alternative.

To be honest, I'm intrigued with the idea of self-sufficient space missions, but the MKS/OKS is a tad too complicated for me to handle. This is just something I made to fill-in-the-blank on mission sustainability.

I appreciate your permission to redistribute anything I tweaked off your mod, but I haven't had much other than configs to show off. Maybe if I had more assets, then I'll release something much better than a simple config.

I'll just leave the config file here, as it was meant to work with USI-LS. Feel free to hide it, show it off, or just simply linking it. I won't be working on that anymore for the time being.

In other news, I'm making a mod! Check my sig.

I'm always curious when folks say MKS is complicated... given it got seriously pruned in 1.0.

Which bits do you find complicated?

[shynung]

I'm always curious when folks say MKS is complicated... given it got seriously pruned in 1.0.

Which bits do you find complicated?

The parts system. Or, more specifically, the fact that the MKS/OKS parts lose efficiency as they lose Machinery, while the stock parts literally last forever. And the Machinery ISRU system, which is a must for long term habitation, requires multiple resource converters that are housed inside different parts, which are, to me, difficult to track.

I'm actually favoring a much simpler LS system like USI-LS, but which also allow me to run indefinitely-long missions with the minimal number of parts necessary. So no need for large workshops and fabrication modules, just a simple LS system with minimal resource types and a small assortment of parts to carry these resources and harvest them from already-available resources like the humble Ore.

[RoverDude]

The parts system. Or, more specifically, the fact that the MKS/OKS parts lose efficiency as they lose Machinery, while the stock parts literally last forever. And the Machinery ISRU system, which is a must for long term habitation, requires multiple resource converters that are housed inside different parts, which are, to me, difficult to track.

I'm actually favoring a much simpler LS system like USI-LS, but which also allow me to run indefinitely-long missions with the minimal number of parts necessary. So no need for large workshops and fabrication modules, just a simple LS system with minimal resource types and a small assortment of parts to carry these resources and harvest them from already-available resources like the humble Ore.

I think you're a bit off on MKS - there was a pretty drastic part reduction a while back. So now, to go from harvesting all the way to machinery can be done in six parts... and two of those are drills, and two are tanks. Or if you're clever, you can do recycling and cut this down to just two tanks and one part.

Resource count wise, you add two. Two, because one is scarce and one is uncommon, and base site selection matters.

Also there's a pretty significant difference between simple in terms of complexity (less moving parts, less resources), and simple in terms of overpowering gameplay (I can, with only a few tons, turn that tin of vanilla wafers into infinite supplies).

I like the former, but I'll always put my money on avoiding the latter.

- - - Updated - - -

Unrelated note.

Changes are afoot!

I'm wrapping up some USI-LS updates, and wanted to toss out some preview info.

First - there's a whole host of new 'fail' options (five in total, including death, despawn, mutiny, grumpiness, and just wandering back to the KSC). These can be individually configured for your orange/vets and your default astronauts - for both supply shortage and for habitation issues (see below).

Habitation is now a thing. A single default crew capacity gives you one Kerbal-month of space. Hitchhikers significantly increase this. So no more stuffing Kerbals in lander cans for ten years. Note that the default is for these to be OFF, so your existing saves are not borked. And of course you can configure this independently for vets/non-vets, and this setting is independent of what happens when supplies are exhausted.

There's a partmodule included that lets you set the habitation space of parts (and an MM for the hitchhiker is included). Use with reckless abandon.

Habitation works based on a 'rest' state. So whenever your Kerbal is in a ship, his rest is bumped based on that hab's remaining lifespan (based on it's capacity as well as kerbals in the vessel). This also opens the door to add emergency inflatable habs to your ship so your Kerbals not only have enough noms, but also a place to rest while they await rescue.

Lastly, resource scavenging is being added. If a vessel is short on supplies, it will attempt to automatically pull supplies in from any nearby craft (note that this is basically the same code I use in MKS, minus the MKS requirement).

(edit)

Oh! And you can customize your vet names too

Edited August 31, 2015 by RoverDude

[shynung]

I think you're a bit off on MKS - there was a pretty drastic part reduction a while back. So now, to go from harvesting all the way to machinery can be done in six parts... and two of those are drills, and two are tanks. Or if you're clever, you can do recycling and cut this down to just two tanks and one part.

Resource count wise, you add two. Two, because one is scarce and one is uncommon, and base site selection matters.

Hmm. Maybe I'll give it another shot. I might have been dazed by the amounts of parts in one mod, and their interconnections with one another.

On another note, I'm schmelling a new update.

[Grumman]

First - there's a whole host of new 'fail' options (five in total, including death, despawn, mutiny, grumpiness, and just wandering back to the KSC). These can be individually configured for your orange/vets and your default astronauts - for both supply shortage and for habitation issues (see below).

Could you define these results? I assume "mutiny" is the current "turn into Tourists" result, but what does "grumpiness" do.

Habitation is now a thing. A single default crew capacity gives you one Kerbal-month of space. Hitchhikers significantly increase this. So no more stuffing Kerbals in lander cans for ten years. Note that the default is for these to be OFF, so your existing saves are not borked. And of course you can configure this independently for vets/non-vets, and this setting is independent of what happens when supplies are exhausted.

There's a partmodule included that lets you set the habitation space of parts (and an MM for the hitchhiker is included). Use with reckless abandon.

Habitation works based on a 'rest' state. So whenever your Kerbal is in a ship, his rest is bumped based on that hab's remaining lifespan (based on it's capacity as well as kerbals in the vessel). This also opens the door to add emergency inflatable habs to your ship so your Kerbals not only have enough noms, but also a place to rest while they await rescue.

Does this new system allow for indefinite duration? If so, how much stuff would you need per Kerbal to do so?

[Bloody_looser]

Wow, RoverDude, incoming changes are impressive!

First - there's a whole host of new 'fail' options (five in total, including death, despawn, mutiny, grumpiness, and just wandering back to the KSC).

What'd be the difference between death and despawn?

Habitation is now a thing.

Will be some possibility to restore this 'habitation'? Or we'll have to change modules on stations and bases from time to time?

Lastly, resource scavenging is being added. If a vessel is short on supplies, it will attempt to automatically pull supplies in from any nearby craft (note that this is basically the same code I use in MKS, minus the MKS requirement).

That's really nice.

[mhoram]

A sack of plant food is significantly cheaper than a sack of compact, nutritious food.

Thanks for the explanation.

There's a partmodule included that lets you set the habitation space of parts (and an MM for the hitchhiker is included). Use with reckless abandon.

Will you also provide default MM's for the other stock habitation modules besides the hitchhiker?

Looking forward to see the changes! Thanks for the work you put into the mods.

[ModZero]

Does this new system allow for indefinite duration?

Sheesh, what's up with you people and "indefinite duration"? I mean, if you just wants your ships to be heavier, there's a bunch of ballast-mods, use those. Also, it's openly stated it's optional.

As far as I'm concerned, even MKS shouldn't let "indefinite" that happen, b/c to be plausible you'd need full scale industrial operations.

[RoverDude]

Could you define these results? I assume "mutiny" is the current "turn into Tourists" result, but what does "grumpiness" do.

Does this new system allow for indefinite duration? If so, how much stuff would you need per Kerbal to do so?

Grumpy = tourist. Mutiny = tourist plus a case of random part decoupling. Hilarity may ensue.

RE the hab function, It's less a case of 'stuff' and more a case of how said stuff is configured.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, RoverDude, incoming changes are impressive!

What'd be the difference between death and despawn?

Will be some possibility to restore this 'habitation'? Or we'll have to change modules on stations and bases from time to time?

That's really nice.

No habitation restoration at this time. Despawn = 'Missing' vs 'Lost'.

Thanks for the explanation.

Will you also provide default MM's for the other stock habitation modules besides the hitchhiker?

Looking forward to see the changes! Thanks for the work you put into the mods.

Sure, I can do some alternate configs for those.

[Gfurst]

Hey there Roverdude, planned feature seems awesome.... I'm imagining that extra slot spaces on the habitation modules will extra time kerbals can drift through space... May I ask how tracking going to be done on this, an extra resource or what?