Unity 5?

[Blondai]

Howdy Kerbals

I've heard a lot of talk about the unity 5 update for some time now, but I don't know what it really means. I play KSP on a Dell Inspiron, so the game gets quite jumpy if I look at any planets at the best of times, though I am hoping to get a decent gaming desktop soon. So I'm wondering if someone can explain to me what this unity 5 upgrade really is, is it game engine? will it make the game run smoother? or will it improve graphics but require more gaming power? Someone please explain.

Thank You

Dai

[OddFunction]

Forget everything you know about the situation, and answer the following question.

Do you have more than 4 gigs of RAM?

If yes, Unity 5 MAY lead to 64bit, which means you will be able to run as many mods as you want without crashing. The current limit is around 3.6-3.9gigs of memory (RAM) used before a crash.

If no, don't worry about it, unity 5 will probably not do much.*

* = Unity 5 is said to boost performance for all systems, including low spec ones. I would just not rely on it for a major FPS boost because you never know exactly what you will get. (Especially in your case, underpowered hardware just never really gets better, even with heavy, heavy tweaks).

I do not believe Unity 5 will require any more advanced hardware; in fact I believe it makes it run smoother.

And yes, Unity 5 is a game engine, a very common one used by a huge number of popular games.

Edited May 20, 2015 by OddFunction

[KatzOhki]

Unity 5 is an update to the game engine. This means a few things for performance. Number 1 is that we expect a 64-bit version to be released which should allow KSP to use more RAM. The physics engine will be updated as well, which would hopefully (this hasn't been confirmed yet) allow for much better performance on multi-core processors. Graphics are expected to change slightly. I don't think you should have to spend too much to play KSP well.

[Beale]

which means you will be able to run as many mods as you want without crashing.

Until you hit the physical amount of memory in your computer

Time for me to upgrade if this becomes a reality...

[magnemoe]

Until you hit the physical amount of memory in your computer

Time for me to upgrade if this becomes a reality...

At this time game will get longer loading times as it uses virtual memory (your harddrive)

Most modern gaming computers can be updated to 32 GB.

Some intel 2011 socket motherboard support 128 GB ram, mine only support 64 GB.

[Renegrade]

If yes, Unity 5 MAY lead to 64bit, which means you will be able to run as many mods as you want without crashing. The current limit is around 3.6-3.9gigs of memory (RAM) used before a crash.

you mean 'without running out of memory'. If a mod is broken and you add it, well, let's just say that running out of memory isn't the ONLY way to crash :/

Until you hit the physical amount of memory in your computer

You shouldn't even crash then (again with the caveat that running out of memory isn't the only way to crash) - just become horribly, horribly slow as you start paging into swap.... you'd only hit a hard crashy wall if you then ran out of swap~

Unity 5 is an update to the game engine. This means a few things for performance. Number 1 is that we expect a 64-bit version to be released which should allow KSP to use more RAM. The physics engine will be updated as well, which would hopefully (this hasn't been confirmed yet) allow for much better performance on multi-core processors. Graphics are expected to change slightly. I don't think you should have to spend too much to play KSP well.

Correction: somewhat better performance on SMP systems. (multicore chips are basically just SMP-on-a-chip)

My rule of thumb for "might be improved by multiprocessor multithreading" is a 2.5x increase with lots of warning stickers that say "maximum possible with >= 4 CPUs, probably less, possibly significantly less".

(aside from a few, narrow tasks, all this new age 'multi-' stuff is basically snake oil)

Some intel 2011 socket motherboard support 128 GB ram, mine only support 64 GB.

Ditto - woot socket 2011 club

[Eric S]

The physics engine will be updated as well, which would hopefully (this hasn't been confirmed yet) allow for much better performance on multi-core processors.

Depends on your definition of "much better." As I understand it, Even the latest PhysX can't use more than a single thread for a single craft, which means that a multi-core processor isn't going to help the case of having a single, complex craft. On the other hand, docking two craft of similar complexity should be quite a bit better. Also, the latest PhysX is quite a bit more optimized than the one that Unity 4 uses, with some of the simulation features that KSP uses running up to 50% faster. I don't think we'll see 50% faster overall from a single thread, but anything is good.

[KatzOhki]

I guess it depends on what your definition of "big" improvement is. Since the physics engine (physx, not sure the version numbers) is one of the big users of CPU time in KSP you can expect porting that to multiple threads to help. Somewhere I heard that physx can use the GPU for physics processing, but I really have no idea whether that's true or not.

Edit: I got ninja'd. OK so, from what I have seen being discussed the newer version of physx in Unity 5 does support multithreading. All I could find was this: http://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/content/gameworkslibrary/physx/guide/Manual/API.html#multithreading

Edit again: http://blogs.unity3d.com/2014/07/08/high-performance-physics-in-unity-5/

*shrug* Here's hoping

Edited May 20, 2015 by KatzOhki

[Alshain]

One of the big changes I'm looking forward to for Unity 5 is it has a new overhauled shader engine and real-time global illumination. I think thesecould do wonders for KSP, so we might get better water reflections and overall appearance and we might see clouds finally make an appearance (I hope). Shadows would be improved as a result as well, and light sources will probably have better collision detection.

You can view the new stuff here (graphics is the second little "dot", click there then use the down arrow to scroll).

http://unity3d.com/5?gclid=Cj0KEQjw4fCqBRDM1ZKhk5jfo6IBEiQAZQ97OMw7XyPZ2hubrM6KYpJ8S4sPTP6XuR4zKbpcDveuTpMaAq6_8P8HAQ

One thing the EVERYONE needs to be aware of is that the first patch to bring us Unity 5 may just be the port. What that means is you will see almost NOTHING from an end user perspective, but it will open doors later for the developers to do more in subsequent patches that you will notice from the end user perspective. It really depends on how much Squad wants to try and cram into a single patch, but let this serve as a warning, don't be disappointed if the next patch changes little in the game, it is just stepping stone.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "big" improvement is. Since the physics engine (physx, not sure the version numbers) is one of the big users of CPU time in KSP you can expect porting that to multiple threads to help. Somewhere I heard that physx can use the GPU for physics processing, but I really have no idea whether that's true or not.

Edit: I got ninja'd. OK so, from what I have seen being discussed the newer version of physx in Unity 5 does support multithreading. All I could find was this: http://docs.nvidia.com/gameworks/content/gameworkslibrary/physx/guide/Manual/API.html#multithreading

Edit again: http://blogs.unity3d.com/2014/07/08/high-performance-physics-in-unity-5/

*shrug* Here's hoping

It does indeed support multi-threading which should drastically help with part count based lag.

I believe it also supports PhysX GPU acceleration, which in the past hasn't shown a whole lot of improvement in other games. I mean, there was more trash on the floors in the Arkham games.... really, that is what it did in Arkham Asylum... it put more trash on the floor and allowed paper to fly through the air like a sheet of paper would. Still, depending on how easy it is for Squad to implement, I have a Nvidia 8800GT in my system dedicated for PhysX and I would love to be able to use it... but if it were a long drawn out process to do, I'd tell Squad to spend their time doing something else.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Alshain

[Linear]

You'll notice the difference in performance, but it will not be that big. Also, the MT boost is not massive either, a few percent better comparatively.

Please note, all of the 'physx' talk going on in here, remember we're talking about PhysX, not APhysX - KSP will not use GPU based Physx, it will be on the CPU only.

[d4rksh4de]

I really don't know where comes the impression that Unity 5 fixes all KSP x64 bugs/crashes. Fact is, that in software development, if these bugs are not reported and fixed then they do not magically vanish in the next version. I've heard that Unity 5 has better support for the x64 Unity editor, but this has nothing to do with the KSP x64 related bugs. So, if any of the x64 related crashes are fixed in Unity 5, then it is just a pure luck.

[montyben101]

This will take squad a VERY VERY long time to do as I'm sure massive amounts of work need to be done to get it working.

underpowered hardware just never really gets better, even with heavy, heavy tweaks)

*cough*consoles*cough*

[Red Iron Crown]

One of the big changes I'm looking forward to for Unity 5 is it has a new overhauled shader engine and real-time global illumination. I think thesecould do wonders for KSP, so we might get better water reflections and overall appearance and we might see clouds finally make an appearance (I hope). Shadows would be improved as a result as well, and light sources will probably have better collision detection.

I'm crossing my fingers that this will enable celestial bodies to cast shadows on each other.

[regex]

I'm crossing my fingers that this will enable celestial bodies to cast shadows on each other.

~axial tilt~ *swoon*

[Ninjahgoblin]

Solid question with solid response. I came for the input myself. I have 4gb Gddr5 on my GPU. And 16gb Main board. Cannot wait to take advantage of it.

[phatm0n]

I'm crossing my fingers that this will enable celestial bodies to cast shadows on each other.

Oh man, now I'm really excited. It's always bugged me that, even if the sun is behind Jool, it will still be daylight on Laythe. Munar eclipses would be pretty darn cool, too.

Even if this update doesn't really bring any new parts or gameplay mechanics, the foundation it is laying for future improvements is interesting.

[KatzOhki]

I really don't know where comes the impression that Unity 5 fixes all KSP x64 bugs/crashes. Fact is, that in software development, if these bugs are not reported and fixed then they do not magically vanish in the next version. I've heard that Unity 5 has better support for the x64 Unity editor, but this has nothing to do with the KSP x64 related bugs. So, if any of the x64 related crashes are fixed in Unity 5, then it is just a pure luck.

Well, yeah Unity 5 is not going to magically make KSP x64 work, but having a x64 editor is going to really help things in terms of developing for KSP x64. (I think Harvester stated as much in the last dev notes).

[OddFunction]

I really don't know where comes the impression that Unity 5 fixes all KSP x64 bugs/crashes. Fact is, that in software development, if these bugs are not reported and fixed then they do not magically vanish in the next version. I've heard that Unity 5 has better support for the x64 Unity editor, but this has nothing to do with the KSP x64 related bugs. So, if any of the x64 related crashes are fixed in Unity 5, then it is just a pure luck.

If I am wrong please feel free to correct me, but I believe that this isn't true. I remember reading that the issue with 64bit KSP was that the crashes and errors they were getting were not being output into a log file (because of how Unity works) so they literally could not diagnose what was going on. With Unity 5 they will have this functionality again which will lead to bugfixes that were previously impossible.

This should (but not guaranteed to) massively improve the stability of the 64bit build.

[Alshain]

You'll notice the difference in performance, but it will not be that big. Also, the MT boost is not massive either, a few percent better comparatively.

Please note, all of the 'physx' talk going on in here, remember we're talking about PhysX, not APhysX - KSP will not use GPU based Physx, it will be on the CPU only.

So you are working for Squad now? You are a developer? How else could you possibly know that? I don't claim to know everything about Unity 5, but if the technology is built into the game's engine now, it may not take much more than telling Unity to turn it on (with a configuration option of course, for those who don't have the technology).

I really don't know where comes the impression that Unity 5 fixes all KSP x64 bugs/crashes. Fact is, that in software development, if these bugs are not reported and fixed then they do not magically vanish in the next version. I've heard that Unity 5 has better support for the x64 Unity editor, but this has nothing to do with the KSP x64 related bugs. So, if any of the x64 related crashes are fixed in Unity 5, then it is just a pure luck.

Unity 5 provides a x64 suite for developing. It is hard to find bugs if you don't have a good compiler to point them out to you. The last DevNotes kind of mentioned that. Now Unity's suite can run in 64 bit mode for testing while running debuggers. It is much more likely to see an x64 working version now.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Alshain

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Just to be clear:

Unity5 is not going to run KSP on more than one CPU-Core, right?

[OddFunction]

Just to be clear:

Unity5 is not going to run KSP on more than one CPU-Core, right?

From my understanding it will run on more than one core yes, but it will not be the performance godsend everybody thinks it is. It will be more like a few percentage performance boost/and or smoothing.

My understanding could be flawed of course.

[KatzOhki]

There seems to be no consensus on whether the improvement will be "big" or not. I think it is safe to say that there will be "some" improvement, but as to exactly how much we will have to wait and see. My personal agenda is to strongly hope that it's a big deal since I have a 6-core CPU. As it is KSP runs well on my computer anyway, but hopefully it will improve performance for a lot of people.

(I didn't build my computer specifically for KSP).

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

From my understanding it will run on more than one core yes, but it will not be the performance godsend everybody thinks it is. It will be more like a few percentage performance boost/and or smoothing.

My understanding could be flawed of course.

From the devnote

Harvester:

Speaking of performance, Unity 5 now uses the much improved PhysX 3.5, compared to the really outdated 2.8 version we had until now. The new PhysX is optimized for multiple threads, is more accurate and more stable, and is generally better in every measurable way. However, it’s not without its own set of changes that are (you guessed it) also backward-incompatible. Wheel colliders for one are completely changed, which means we have to update our own… That should be hopefully straightforward.

Got it

[Alshain]

From my understanding it will run on more than one core yes, but it will not be the performance godsend everybody thinks it is. It will be more like a few percentage performance boost/and or smoothing.

My understanding could be flawed of course.

It should show a significant improvement. It depends on your CPU of course. Dual core doesn't mean twice the power, that is the misconception people have, but never the less running KSP on 4 or 6 cores is going to show some noticeable improvement over running on one core. The specific areas of improvement will be areas where calculations are time constrained. A CPU core can only process one thing at a time and everything must wait its turn to be processed, with 4 cores you can calculate 4 things at a time. Time constraints usually result in either lag, such as part count lag (caused by the computer attempting to calculate physics on everything in the vicinity and not being able to get it done fast enough) or bugs, which developers call "Race conditions" because two process are racing to finish first and when noticeable it is because the wrong process won. An example of this is the one where time warp moves faster than the game can calculate physics resulting in messing up your trajectory as you cross sphere of influence (which was fixed by other means in 1.0 btw).

In either case, you should notice some improvement. Just don't think it is going to stop all lag and be the perfect solution to everything ever.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Alshain

[waterlubber]

Shouldn't people who previously played KSP one a quad core (who presumably got 1/4 the performance?) get 4x (or even 2) the performance now? Or did it work differently?