Science for MPL in career

[Bobe]

Every time I start a new career something I neglect to plan for is the Mobile Processing Lab to maximise long term science generation. However, in terms of career progression, I don't understand how it can be used effectively. To be able to build it in the first place you need quite a bit of science, pretty much all of which will come from LKO and maybe Munar experiments. So when it comes time to put a station with a science lab up there as part of a contract, you might as well use it to generate more science, but to generate science it requires experiments, all of which you've exhausted researching the thing.

Am I to believe they expect us at that stage to bring back experiments from Minmus and beyond and deposit them at the station?

Personally I think it would be nice to get contracts to send experiments to the station that add to the science generation. After all, we wouldn't send a rover to Mars, send back a sample somehow (assume we didn't have in situ analysis) only to have it rendezvous with the ISS.

[Juicy]

You can do experiments again to fill up your MPL. So even if you already turned in your crew report from launchpad long before you had your MPL, you can still do it again to fill up your MPL. It won't give you direct science anymore, but the MPL still gets the data to investigate.

[Bobe]

You can do experiments again to fill up your MPL. So even if you already turned in your crew report from launchpad long before you had your MPL, you can still do it again to fill up your MPL. It won't give you direct science anymore, but the MPL still gets the data to investigate.

Oh so it just needs data, not specifically science value?

[Evanitis]

to build it in the first place you need quite a bit of science

That's relative. It's much when you just got that high on the tree, but the last couple of tech-nodes cost 600-1000 science each, so the MPL will help much in getting everything researched.

Oh so it just needs data, not specifically science value?

Indeed.

[Juicy]

Oh so it just needs data, not specifically science value?

Nope, just the data. The amount of data the MPL gets varies a lot as well. There doesn't seem to be any relation between the amount of science data the MPL gets, the amount of science points you'd get directly from an experiment, or even the datasize of the experiment itself (atmoscans have a huge amount of data to transmit, but generate an amount of points for the MPL similar to the materials bay). As long as an MPL hasn't seen the results of a particular experiment in a specific biome/zone, it can be added.

[KerbMav]

Before launching my space station crew lab with this new funktionality I rovered around KSC and packed up all available experiments which I then put into the lab for processing in orbit. (Do it in orbit, not on the surface of Kerbin, there is a hefty penalty involved!) It gave it something to do until my repeated Mun and Minmus missions to different biomes/contract locations returned and docked to the station.

All processed experiments were later brought back to Kerbin for the return value of science.

How you ask? I glewed a pod to one of the launch clamps, put the experiments in there and moved them into the lab with the help of ship manifest.

I could have built a complicated ladder system instead of course.

Nope, just the data. The amount of data the MPL gets varies a lot as well. There doesn't seem to be any relation between the amount of science data the MPL gets, the amount of science points you'd get directly from an experiment, or even the datasize of the experiment itself (atmoscans have a huge amount of data to transmit, but generate an amount of points for the MPL similar to the materials bay). As long as an MPL hasn't seen the results of a particular experiment in a specific biome/zone, it can be added.

Actually the data value for the lab of any experiment is the same as its science value - only that some mali/boni apply:

In 1.0.2 - did not check if these changed in 1.0.4

-90% on Kerbins surface

+10% while landed

+25% while in the same SOI the experiment was taken

Yes, both the first and the second apply for Kerbin simultaneously.

Edited June 26, 2015 by KerbMav

[Nich]

Ya I loved the Idea of the MPL at first but really you need 1-2 Mun landings to unlock it if it is the first thing you go for and buy then the Mun and Minimus are on farm. Not to mention by the time I got the Mun and Minimus fully explored my 3 MPLs with 10 scientist only made a little over 100 science. Now most of the tech tree is unlocked and a Duna Mission (where the MPL would really shine) because of the LONG transfer wont need any of the science as it should finish the tech tree.

Even in hard mode the MPL is pretty worthless because you need most the science on Kerbin to open up stuff you need to land on the Mun/Minimus. If you go down the MPL path you really handicap your self

[Juicy]

Not wanting to turn this into a suggestion thread, but it could use a small overhaul. Like, a lower datacap, but faster science generation at the same data:science ratio.

Alternatively, I'd suggest adding a small version of the MPL, while giving the current version (which IS called the "large" version) the perk of being able to recover science. So adding it to the large version would add to the MPLs data and count as recovery, while the small version would only be able to process the data (with only a single Kerbal on board) and the data would still have to be either transmitted or physically sent to Kerbin.

The large processing lab could then stay in its current location on the tech tree, or even move to tier 6, while the "smaller" version could be placed on tier 4, keeping both purposeful.

[Captain H@dock]

Ya I loved the Idea of the MPL at first but really you need 1-2 Mun landings to unlock it if it is the first thing you go for and buy then the Mun and Minimus are on farm. Not to mention by the time I got the Mun and Minimus fully explored my 3 MPLs with 10 scientist only made a little over 100 science. Now most of the tech tree is unlocked and a Duna Mission (where the MPL would really shine) because of the LONG transfer wont need any of the science as it should finish the tech tree.

Even in hard mode the MPL is pretty worthless because you need most the science on Kerbin to open up stuff you need to land on the Mun/Minimus. If you go down the MPL path you really handicap your self

I agree. The MPL is just not time effective enough to be helping. In a polar orbit of the mun I can land on a biome every second orbit (one to land, one to take off and RDV with the fuel/science station).

By the time I'm done doing all mun biome, I might have 50 or 60 science in the lab... Compared to half a dozen thousand science from farming the mun for science, that's really pointless.

[Nich]

I agree. The MPL is just not time effective enough to be helping. In a polar orbit of the mun I can land on a biome every second orbit (one to land, one to take off and RDV with the fuel/science station).

By the time I'm done doing all mun biome, I might have 50 or 60 science in the lab... Compared to half a dozen thousand science from farming the mun for science, that's really pointless.

I have to disagree here it doesn't mater how fast you can launch it takes 2 days to fully explore the Mun. 4 if you want every landing to be on the Sunny side. Add in the 5 day return flight and your looking at under 30 science.

Minimus is even worse After a 9 day journey I think I manged to explore all of minimus in less then a day (5 biomes the first landing) Three soil samples filled the MPL

[KerbMav]

The lab was meant to run alongside your expeditions and provide science after all (attainable, depending on the player's abilities and interest) science has been collected, to keep strategies going that turn science into x.

If the lab contributed as much as most here seem to ask for it would not be long for others to raise their voice because the lab unlocked the whole tech tree after only orbiting Minmus and not even arriving at Duna.

[Terwin]

I have a science lab on my mission to Duna.

On the launch pad I re-did all my experiments and manually loaded them into the lab for later study, just after launch I flicked the bay doors open long enough to hit the 'all research' hot-key and processed all of those during ascent so I could do it again just before leaving the atmosphere.

In orbit I manually collected the high atmosphere and low orbit data then went off to Minmus for refuel and to load up on ore, but also collected lots of science data while there as well.

Currently in solar orbit and roughly 200 days to Duna(I did not use a window), but with over 1000 science sitting in the lab waiting to be processed, I do not expect to run out before getting home.

Admittendly I have already researched the stock science tree, but the community science tree still has lots of nodes for me to purchase(even if most of them are empty)

Also, it seems that while in 1.0.2 the resarch/day was actually data consumed/day(giving 5x research), in 1.0.4 that number was perhaps doubled but now refers to science, not data(cutting the rate of conversion by ~2.5)

I do not think that the MPL is intended for Kerbin SOI missions, more for permanent space stations and interplanetary missions.(most of my base contracts these days do not have anyone operating the lab if one is present)

Perhaps they intend to expand the tech tree at some point or want to be sure you can complete even the most extensive custom tech trees with enough time and effort.

[Johnny Wishbone]

The lab was meant to run alongside your expeditions and provide science after all (attainable, depending on the player's abilities and interest) science has been collected, to keep strategies going that turn science into x.

If the lab contributed as much as most here seem to ask for it would not be long for others to raise their voice because the lab unlocked the whole tech tree after only orbiting Minmus and not even arriving at Duna.

Yeah, it seems to me that the best use of the MPL is as a revenue generator later in the game when you don't need science anymore and you've fired up a strategy to convert science points to funds. That way, you still have a need to do science on your various missions because they convert to funds to help fund future missions.

Of course, this is kinda moot if you've also figured out and taken advantage of the various ways to exploit the funds system. I have several career games where I've had billions of funds by the time I get to exploring Jool, so it was never an issue to waste a couple hundred grand launching some ostentatious construction into LKO as a pet project.

[Nich]

I would like a cross between the old method and new method.

reduce the conversion rate from 5-1 to 2-1 (i.e. 1 science for every 2 data)

Make it much faster 10x or even 100x

make it consume 5 elect/sec per scientist

does not consume the experiments

can use experiments even if no value left on there return

Keep SOI bonus

triple landed bonus or give triple processing rate (dealing with a landed MPL is not worth the effort I have found)

Move it to hitchiker tech node or lower.

as it is now it is like giving someone a Kredit printing machine after they have upgraded all of KSC

They way I see a hard game play now

You need the science at KSC to get to suborbital

You need the funds from suborbital to get a new launch pad

You need the science from Kerbin to get orbital

You need funds from orbital to get EVAs

You need EVA around Kerbin to get temp and pressure probes

You need Temp and pressure around kerbin for tech to fly by the Mun

You need flyby the Mun unlock tech to land on the Mun/Minimus

YOU HAVE FINALLY UNLOCKED MPL

You need Mun/Minimus to fund tracking/flight planning/Soil samples/fuel transfer/245 parts

With tracking/flight planning/Soil samples/fuel transfer/255 parts you can reach Duna with Mun landing tech but while doing all this we have already unlocked enough tech for just about anything.

[Captain H@dock]

I have to disagree here it doesn't mater how fast you can launch it takes 2 days to fully explore the Mun. 4 if you want every landing to be on the Sunny side. Add in the 5 day return flight and your looking at under 30 science.

Minimus is even worse After a 9 day journey I think I manged to explore all of minimus in less then a day (5 biomes the first landing) Three soil samples filled the MPL

I'm fairly sure we're saying the same thing... LAB is slow (a handful of science an hour), landing is fast (200+ science per landing, which shouldn't take more than 2h).

If the lab contributed as much as most here seem to ask for it would not be long for others to raise their voice because the lab unlocked the whole tech tree after only orbiting Minmus and not even arriving at Duna.

I'm not asking for the LAB to contribute more than it currently does. I'm just surprised because 1.0.0 brought dozens of threads on how over powered the lab was. Being in a slow career, it's only recenlty that's I've reach the MPL node. My conclusion was that it really doesn't make sense to call it OP since you can probably complete the tree in Kerbin SOI without the LAB, in under 50 Kerbin days. It would probably take years to lab-timewarp to the required 15.000ish science points.

[Evanitis]

Many in this thread seems to forget that science-gain has a difficulty-slider. Add a multiplier and the whole tree becomes irrelevant in a few Mun missions. Take it low enough and you'll be glad for the MPL working as it does while you set up multiple labs in different SoIs at every possible launch window.

I found the MPL really useful when I started to visit other planets. Started my Duna mission, gathered science, left the MPL there and started an EVE mission. By the time my EVE lab arrived, I could harvest the Duna installation twice. That 1000 science transmited was helpful, but not too much to make further research moot. So MPLs are cool when doing multiple interplanetary missions, or when I'm interested in one enough to timewarp there instead of doing other stuff while an expedition arrives.

Of course one can just do excessive timewarping to unlock the tree and make funds from sci, but at this point it's easier to just play sandbox.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Evanitis

[KerbMav]

Many in this thread seems to forget that science-gain has a difficulty-slider.

That is also true.

But I agree that the MLP might come a little bit late in the tech tree.

[Aragosnat]

I do agree that the lab does come a bit late as well as used as a Fund generator so one does not have to accept to many contracts that make no sense to do. Heck. Even though I can use it. I see no point to it yet as I can still get enough science from Mun and Minmus to finish the tect tree off. Dispite using a good amount of it to bail my cash funds out. Due to 8 dead Kerbals at Kerbin.

[Joonatan1998]

What changes did they do to the lab in 1.0.3?

They said they removed exploits but I can't do tests with it now.

[Nich]

Only thing I have notice is it only counts scientist in the MPL rather then on the station or base. This limits you to 2 scientist. They did however booster the science per pay per scientist. break even point is about 5 scientist. if you have 50 on a station will will get a lot less if you had 2 you will get a lot more.