[Min KSP: 1.12.2] Pathfinder - Space Camping & Geoscience

[Angelo Kerman]

2 hours ago, COL.R.Neville said:

yeah i like the science lab gui that is part of this.

anyway to tell if there is a functioning science lab on the network and send the data from other craft, eva kerbals etc to it for processing? 

That's an interesting question. Once KSP 1.2 is out, that is something I can investigate.

2 hours ago, Bombaatu said:

If the Doc Science lab can now run WBI experiments, can any of the Pathfinder modules act as a Botany Lab for the plant growth experiments?

The Botanical Research Experiment is exclusive to MOLE.

[DiceCaller]

Did the Spyglass ever get changed to count as a Cupola?  I just tried to build a base for a contract and neither the Buffalo ISRU <ISRU> nor the Spyglass <Cupola> worked towards fulfilling the contact.

[Angelo Kerman]

1 hour ago, DiceCaller said:

Did the Spyglass ever get changed to count as a Cupola?  I just tried to build a base for a contract and neither the Buffalo ISRU <ISRU> nor the Spyglass <Cupola> worked towards fulfilling the contact.

There is a MM_Contracts patch that in theory should make the Spyglass count. I'm not very good with contracts however, so if someone more experienced with them wants to take a look I'd appreciate it. :)

[DStaal]

I'm obviously doing a fairly heavy WildBlue playthrough at the moment.   Starting to get into real Pathfinder use, not just deployment.  Some notes on things that may bug me:

• I'm using USI-LS.  The Pigpen converts Mulch into Fertilizer.  This basically breaks the resource chain for USI-LS - Fertilizer is conceptually 'what's missing from Mulch to grow food' in the USI-LS system, and the official parts basically will convert Mulch+Fertilizer into an equivalent mass of Supplies.  (Which then turns into an equal mass of Mulch.)  Turning Mulch into Fertilizer means you're going to run out of food - no matter what.  UKS uses Gypsum to generate Fertilizer; if you don't want to add more resources, Ore wouldn't be a horrible choice.  Or just require it to be shipped in from home, like base USI-LS.
• Also with USI-LS: Mulch (like Supplies) is 80-90% water, by USI-LS lore.  Needing both Mulch and Water to grow food is somewhat redundant.
• It would be nice to have some sort of indicator on the greenhouses to know how far along the production cycle they are - if the next crop is in 15 days and I have 20 days of supplies, no problem.  If the next crop is in 40 days and I have 15 days of supplies I need to start planning a rescue mission.
• I had an issue where my Old Faithful nearly overheated when I switched to my base recently.  What it appears had happened is that the fusion plant was partially deactivated - it was producing heat but no electricity.  When I re-activated it, there was enough EC for heat rejection and things started to cool down again.  I'm not sure where the bug was and it hasn't recurred - but I thought I should mention it for troubleshooting purposes.
• Related to the above: What uses Coolant?  Old Faithful appears to use water in it's open-cycle mode (which saved it for me in the above...), and it was what I thought was using it.  I'm afraid I'm going to stumble into needing it at some point without having any. 
• The Doc Science lab surprised me by being less powerful than the MPL.  I'd expected it to be equal or better; inflated it's near the same size.  Not a major issue, just a moment of surprise.  What's your reasoning there?  Might there be a way to get a more powerful version?
• I've mentioned elsewhere that the CLS support is somewhat lacking at the moment.  In particular, the Mineshafts, Switchbacks, and Tunnel Extenders don't count as passable.  Since that's their primary purpose, it's a bit odd.    Switchbacks and Tunnel Extenders are an easy fix - I'm not sure how to get Mineshafts working.
• The pack could use a large solar array of some sort, or some small-scale generator.  At the moment it's hard to generate enough power for a base without going into a full fusion plant.  The Poncho looks nice, but it would take a lot of them to generate enough power to run even one of the modules.  Part of this for me may be that I'm using it with both USI-LS and UKS - the efficiency multipliers we discussed in the MOLE thread are in operation here as well, and USI-LS needs EC as well.  But at the moment I'm ignoring the Poncho as 'not worth the effort' - scaled up 5 or 10 times it might be.  An RTG or a fuel cell module would also be potentially interesting; something a bit less exotic than going full Fusion.  (Though I still haven't gotten the Powerpack on the Buffalo to work - I have no indication anywhere in-game that it has a generator besides the solar panel.)

Anyway - I’m having fun.    I like being able to re-config on the fly; I shipped up modules in a lot of different configs so I wouldn't have to, but inevitably I needed to redesign and it allowed me to do so.  Setting things up is easy, and I was able to get a working base together fairly quickly.  I'm a bit concerned long-term about the Supplies situation, but I'll be dealing with that as it comes up; I don't have USI-LS set on anything permanent.

I've retrieved my original four from Minmus, so next up is to get the orbital construction station operating - I have it in place, it just needs to be staffed and tested out, and I need to start getting a supply line running for it.  (Anyone have some good tools for planning intercepts to complicated for MechJeb?  Ideally I'd like to be able to launch directly from Minmus to the spacedock - but figuring transfer windows and the like isn't something I want to do by hand.)  I'll probably post pics here as I get it going.

[Angelo Kerman]

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

Some notes on things that may bug me:

• I'm using USI-LS.  The Pigpen converts Mulch into Fertilizer.  This basically breaks the resource chain for USI-LS - Fertilizer is conceptually 'what's missing from Mulch to grow food' in the USI-LS system, and the official parts basically will convert Mulch+Fertilizer into an equivalent mass of Supplies.  (Which then turns into an equal mass of Mulch.)  Turning Mulch into Fertilizer means you're going to run out of food - no matter what.  UKS uses Gypsum to generate Fertilizer; if you don't want to add more resources, Ore wouldn't be a horrible choice.  Or just require it to be shipped in from home, like base USI-LS.

I'm once again revisiting the recipies for this (sigh). I want variable crop yields, so I'm using a different formula than standard USI-LS. I'm leaning towards Dirt + Mulch+ Fertilizer = Supplies.

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

Also with USI-LS: Mulch (like Supplies) is 80-90% water, by USI-LS lore.  Needing both Mulch and Water to grow food is somewhat redundant.

Where in the wiki is this specifically stated?

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

• It would be nice to have some sort of indicator on the greenhouses to know how far along the production cycle they are - if the next crop is in 15 days and I have 20 days of supplies, no problem.  If the next crop is in 40 days and I have 15 days of supplies I need to start planning a rescue mission.

This is something I have planned for the next release. I'm waiting on KSP 1.2 at this point.

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

• I had an issue where my Old Faithful nearly overheated when I switched to my base recently.  What it appears had happened is that the fusion plant was partially deactivated - it was producing heat but no electricity.  When I re-activated it, there was enough EC for heat rejection and things started to cool down again.  I'm not sure where the bug was and it hasn't recurred - but I thought I should mention it for troubleshooting purposes.

This is a stock issue as near as I can tell. The game appears to "catch up" on heat production. See a few pages back.

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

• Related to the above: What uses Coolant?  Old Faithful appears to use water in it's open-cycle mode (which saved it for me in the above...), and it was what I thought was using it.  I'm afraid I'm going to stumble into needing it at some point without having any. 

Coolant is produced for DSEV's radiators. Next release you won't see the converter unless you have DSEV installed.

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

The Doc Science lab surprised me by being less powerful than the MPL.  I'd expected it to be equal or better; inflated it's near the same size.  Not a major issue, just a moment of surprise.  What's your reasoning there?  Might there be a way to get a more powerful version?

Before Squad buffed the stock MPL, the Doc was more powerful than the stock MPL while on the ground but less powerful than the MPL when in orbit. Next update will reflect that same philosophy, and of course the Doc can function as an experiment lab. I do have some geology experiments planned, but they'll be exclusively part of the Pathfinder Geology Lab.

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

• I've mentioned elsewhere that the CLS support is somewhat lacking at the moment.  In particular, the Mineshafts, Switchbacks, and Tunnel Extenders don't count as passable.  Since that's their primary purpose, it's a bit odd.    Switchbacks and Tunnel Extenders are an easy fix - I'm not sure how to get Mineshafts working.

Fixed, waiting on KSP 1.2.

15 hours ago, DStaal said:

• The pack could use a large solar array of some sort, or some small-scale generator.  At the moment it's hard to generate enough power for a base without going into a full fusion plant.  The Poncho looks nice, but it would take a lot of them to generate enough power to run even one of the modules.  Part of this for me may be that I'm using it with both USI-LS and UKS - the efficiency multipliers we discussed in the MOLE thread are in operation here as well, and USI-LS needs EC as well.  But at the moment I'm ignoring the Poncho as 'not worth the effort' - scaled up 5 or 10 times it might be.  An RTG or a fuel cell module would also be potentially interesting; something a bit less exotic than going full Fusion.  (Though I still haven't gotten the Powerpack on the Buffalo to work - I have no indication anywhere in-game that it has a generator besides the solar panel.)

There are power options at nearly every tier from Electrics to Specialized Electrics in the current version of Pathfinder:

Part/Config	Tech
Poncho	Electrics
Buckboard Generators	Advanced Exploration
Watney Fuel Cell	Advanced Electrics
Hot Springs	Large Electrics
Solar Flare	Specialized Electrics

You're not supposed to have enough power to fully operate your base in the beginning, you have to make choices about what you want to run. I might add a small nuclear reactor to the Nukeworks (you get that in Field Science, same tier as Large Electrics) to offset locations that don't have geothermal activity.

I also double-checked, I already removed the crew bonuses from Pathfinder's UKS MM patch.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Angel-125

[DStaal]

Thanks for the detailed reply. 

16 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

I'm once again revisiting the recipies for this (sigh). I want variable crop yields, so I'm using a different formula than standard USI-LS. I'm leaning towards Dirt + Water + Fertilizer (I see it as a solid not a liquid) = Supplies.

Fertilizer wouldn't be a liquid, as far as I know.  That sounds decent - 'Dirt' will mean something different between you and UKS, but it's a reasonable difference.  (UKS treats Dirt as a generic ore, that you can extract everything from.)

18 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Where in the wiki is this specifically stated?

I don't believe it's explicitly stated on the wiki, although it's been discussed several times in the UKS thread.  Should I add it to the wiki?  (I basically wrote the UKS compatibility page...)  RoverDude has repeatedly stated that Supplies is mostly water for washing and things like that, and Kerbals convert Supplies to Mulch at a 1:1 ratio.

19 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

This is something I have planned for the next release. I'm waiting on KSP 1.2 at this point.

This is a stock issue as near as I can tell. The game appears to "catch up" on heat production. See a few pages back.

Sounds good, and yeah, I think it may have been a stock issue.  I just wanted it listed so people can find it for troubleshooting.  The real problem wasn’t the heat catch up, but the fact that the reactor wasn't producing power, which I think is also a stock bug.  (If the reactor had been producing power, the Old Faithful's radiator would have worked and radiated the heat away.)

22 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Coolant is produced for DSEV's radiators. Next release you won't see the converter unless you have DSEV installed.

Sounds good.  I'll have to look at those parts.  I do have them installed as well, though I haven't unlocked all of them yet.

23 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Before Squad buffed the stock MPL, the Doc was more powerful than the stock MPL while on the ground but less powerful than the MPL when in orbit. Next update will reflect that same philosophy, and of course the Doc can function as an experiment lab. I do have some geology experiments planned, but they'll be exclusively part of the Pathfinder Geology Lab.

Fixed, waiting on KSP 1.2.

I thought that might have been the case with the Doc/MPL - I just wasn't sure if you'd noticed that it wasn't balanced as it was before.   And glad to hear you got the fix in - I mostly was re-mentioning it here because I was doing a combined report, so it should have all the issues I've noticed.   

25 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

There are power options at nearly every tier from Electrics to Specialized Electrics in the current version of Pathfinder:

Part/Config	Tech
Poncho	Electrics
Buckboard Generators	Advanced Exploration
Watney Fuel Cell	Advanced Electrics
Hot Springs	Large Electrics
Solar Flare	Specialized Electrics

You're not supposed to have enough power to fully operate your base in the beginning, you have to make choices about what you want to run. I might add a small nuclear reactor to the Nukeworks (you get that in Field Science, same tier as Large Electrics) to offset locations that don't have geothermal activity.

I also double-checked, I already removed the crew bonuses from Pathfinder's UKS MM patch.

Ah, so I'm just blind here.    I have those parts, I just hadn't noticed them.  (Well, the Hot Springs I noticed but forgot about because I don't have any geoenergy on Minmus.)  I'm going to blame Filter Extensions for not showing them in the right places.   Thanks - I figured you must want/have something in between, and it just bugged me because I couldn't find it.

Thanks again for your reply.  As I said - I'm enjoying this playthrough, and in general everything is working well.  My only real irritants so far have been power (which is largely a result of my own poor planning on this issue - I *really* miss Fusebox), and supplies - which is a semi-moving target from another mod anyway, and something that's designed to be a slight hassle to manage.

[Rafael acevedo]

Since we are at 1.0.0 congrats are in order as I imagine is pathfinder is no longer beta.

[Angelo Kerman]

1 hour ago, Rafael acevedo said:

Since we are at 1.0.0 congrats are in order as I imagine is pathfinder is no longer beta.

Thanks! I think Pathfinder is finally stable enough to be a 1.0 release, though obviously there are a few tweaks for USI-LS on the way. It has all the IVAs I want to make for it (the Homestead will be replaced), and all the basic functionality is there. I still have more to do of course...

[westamastaflash]

Did something change with the stock science lab in the new pathfinder? I no longer can get to the research lab via a button to transmit science.

[Angelo Kerman]

38 minutes ago, westamastaflash said:

Did something change with the stock science lab in the new pathfinder? I no longer can get to the research lab via a button to transmit science.

Not in the latest, no. Next version is doing away with adding the commercial science lab to non Pathfinder/MOLE labs though. It's causing too much trouble.

[SpaceBadger007]

Would it be a good idea to add in the skylab template from your mole mod to the inflatable hab? Or at a lesser state?

[Angelo Kerman]

6 hours ago, SpaceBadger007 said:

Would it be a good idea to add in the skylab template from your mole mod to the inflatable hab? Or at a lesser state?

It already is in a way. The Doc science lab is both an MPL and an experiment lab, just like the Skylab template.

[SpaceBadger007]

3 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

It already is in a way. The Doc science lab is both an MPL and an experiment lab, just like the Skylab template.

Sorry i ment the homestead, sorry for not being clear

[Angelo Kerman]

1 hour ago, SpaceBadger007 said:

Sorry i ment the homestead, sorry for not being clear

Ah. For now, I'm not doing any more development on the Homestead. I'd rather get rid of it in Pathfinder and have the mod focus on base building...

[DStaal]

On 9/6/2016 at 3:13 PM, Angel-125 said:

I'm once again revisiting the recipies for this (sigh). I want variable crop yields, so I'm using a different formula than standard USI-LS. I'm leaning towards Dirt + Mulch+ Fertilizer = Supplies.

One thing to check: In the UKS thread, someone just posted that they can't ship Dirt off the planet.  It gets auto-vented.  I'm not sure what does that (or if it's intended), but it makes sense in the UKS system, but it may not in your use here.  Another option would be Substrate, if that issue is confirmed.

[Bombaatu]

20 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

Ah. For now, I'm not doing any more development on the Homestead. I'd rather get rid of it in Pathfinder and have the mod focus on base building...

Yeah - I always thought the Homestead and Stockyard parts were a bit of an odd duck for Pathfinder. The Stockyard is duplicated by the MOLE dry-docks; moving Homestead to MOLE could be interesting to jump-start using the mod for latter-game stations as well as early-game.

[DStaal]

Anyway; to show off the discussed parts in-use; Here's my newly commissioned space station:

We're a long way from home, people:  (Though not out of Kerbin SOI.)

 

[TheSaint]

21 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

Ah. For now, I'm not doing any more development on the Homestead. I'd rather get rid of it in Pathfinder and have the mod focus on base building...

Wild Blue station parts pack? 

[Bombaatu]

5 minutes ago, TheSaint said:

Wild Blue station parts pack? 

That would be Mark One Laboratory Extensions...

[TheSaint]

24 minutes ago, Bombaatu said:

That would be Mark One Laboratory Extensions...

Advanced Wild Blue station parts pack? 

[Angelo Kerman]

33 minutes ago, DStaal said:

One thing to check: In the UKS thread, someone just posted that they can't ship Dirt off the planet.  It gets auto-vented.  I'm not sure what does that (or if it's intended), but it makes sense in the UKS system, but it may not in your use here.  Another option would be Substrate, if that issue is confirmed.

Nice space station! I don't know about UKS, but I know that Dirt is a resource in the CRP, and USI-LS doesn't auto-vent Dirt.

9 minutes ago, TheSaint said:

Wild Blue station parts pack? 

25 minutes ago, Bombaatu said:

Yeah - I always thought the Homestead and Stockyard parts were a bit of an odd duck for Pathfinder. The Stockyard is duplicated by the MOLE dry-docks; moving Homestead to MOLE could be interesting to jump-start using the mod for latter-game stations as well as early-game.

When I originally created Pathfinder, it was a direct descendant of Multipurpose Colony Modules, which had both base parts and station parts. As I worked on MOLE, I came to realize that it made more sense to keep base building and station building separate, and I didn't want to create a whole new set of station parts for Pathfinder that would essentially be duplicating parts in MOLE. Hence, MOLE gained the Bigby Orbital Workshop (my Skylab analog) to support Pathfinder's industrial arm, MOLE's Mark One Habitat supported the habitation arm, and originally, just the M.O.L.E. supported the science arm (the BOW can do that as well now).

There shouldn't be any drydock duplication at this point, if you have MOLE installed, Pathfinder's drydocks are hidden.

Since I need an inflatable module for DSEV, I'm probably going to create a Mk3 Homestead with the ability to land the module like Bigelow Aerospace intends to do:

That would give me the ability to create DSEV's upcoming NAUTILUS-X and a couple of stations I made before discovering KSP:

Spoiler

Of course DSEV would new a few 2.5m station parts, but still..

[DStaal]

10 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Nice space station! I don't know about UKS, but I know that Dirt is a resource in the CRP, and USI-LS doesn't auto-vent Dirt.

Thanks.  There'd be more WildBlue parts, but at the time I was building it I was having issues with the hex trusses - so I used Neartea's instead, except for the one small bit at the top.  Three launches to build what's shown - further expansion may happen at the top hub node, if needed.  The middle hub's nodes are designated for resource supply containers, and the bottom's are the designated crew load/unload zones.  Initial crew of 8 was just sent up.

UKS auto-vents Dirt, apparently when you get a positive periapsis.  I'm not sure if that's something someone should talk to RoverDude about (and make it more useful for others) - probably in the CRP thread - or if you don't care, or if this should be an issue you want to avoid in other ways.  (And I'm not sure if that's in any container, or if it's just in a Kontainer.) 

[Angelo Kerman]

1 hour ago, TheSaint said:

Advanced Wild Blue station parts pack? 

That would be DSEV.

[RedParadize]

That shuttle II on the right looks nice. The rabbit is really tempting as well.

[Angelo Kerman]

17 minutes ago, RedParadize said:

That shuttle II on the right looks nice. The rabbit is really tempting as well.

Thanks! Those pictures are from my Contact Lost universe, something I working on before Kerbal Space Program. Originally I created art in trueSpace, but that program was super buggy, and I eventually started learning 3DS MAX. Some of the names like Wild Blue Inudstries and Homestead are taken directly from Contact Lost, and the artwork was used as inspiration for some of @CobaltWolf's outstanding art pieces.

You might see an incarnation of the RABBIT in KSP as well; the Buffalo has most of the parts I need. Since I have to pay attention to physics, the KSP RABBIT would not look quite the same. For one, the RABBIT is powered by captured fire elementals that function like gas core nuclear reactors, but without the radiation. Anyway, RABBIT was my Space:1999 Eagle Transporter for Contact Lost.

Spoiler

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Angel-125