Do Weather RIGHT

[ZooNamedGames]

For a long time now, players have been requesting that Squad add clouds (and to a much lessor extent, weather) to the game. However I want to stand in and make a comment about making sure that it's done right. Clouds should be one part of a larger system of mechanics added. It should include wind, rain/snow/sleet/hail/etc. As well as science and contracts.

Now some will say it's an added layer of difficulty that's not needed, but as long as it's togglable, I say it's fair game, especially compared to reality. Someone also once mentioned that if they ever encountered bad weather, they would just warp through it, which is fine, unless your in career mode and you have a time limit to get your job done. Then you'll need to decide when the best time to launch is, and weigh the decision to launch during weather, or risk waiting and see if the weather gets better or worse.

Needless to say, weather has been a part of NASA since the very beginning. NASA has launched countless probes for NOAA, weather corporations, and also TV stations to predict, research and watch the weather. Without this, storm warning data would be significantly delayed in comparison to what it is today. This warranting the science and contract portion of the feature.

Not to mention, weather has made a huge impact on space launches and aircraft launches throughout history. Need I remind anyone of Apollo 12's 'SCE to AUX' moment which was caused by a strike of lightning to their Saturn V (which also traveled down their contrail and hit the Launchpad). Most rocket launches get delayed due to some form of wind, the best example being the first launch attempt of the Orion spacecraft on EFT-1 back on December 4th 2014 (I was down at Banana Creek Viewing Center for the first launch attempt... got there at 2am to go home with no launch) where the rocket was delayed multiple times due to excessive winds. Even Apollo 7 had this issue back when it was first being launched. Everyone was too worried that the winds were going to be too strong for the launch.

This could also lead to the beginning of seasons as well. Seeing as most Florida launches occur during the Fall, Winter and Spring. Most people might not know why, but to explain why this is; it's because launches during the summer in Florida are a nightmare. On top of coastal winds which as usual are always high, you get storms and with them come even more winds. As such it could lead to long term planning of launches. With additional satellite infrastructure providing more detailed information about what the weather will be like in the upcoming days.

Now having weather effects like lightning striking your rocket and throwing everything whacky might be too much. But vehicles launching in rain should have slight extra mass due to condensation and rain collecting on the sides of the rocket which decays as the rocket launches.

For those like me who play for the most part in sandbox and not career, then there should be an option for "Keep Weather Clear" so that there's never any actual weather aside from clouds (which would extend as an aesthetic).

 

These have just been my thoughts on the issue. Yeah it's a lot... and definitely a HUGE development if Squad ever took it up, but I just wanted to stand up for what 'clouds' should imply. Being a citizen of Florida, clouds are both a norm, and a sign of weather to come. Anyone who has lived here will tell you that weather in Florida starts 7am clear sky, 10am few clouds, 1pm scattered clouds, 2pm near overcast, 3pm storming. Sometimes that's day after day.

[Tex_NL]

Clouds stock and weather as a difficulty option? You've got my vote!

[Firemetal]

Yes this is like life support in a way that it would make the game a lot harder. I believe this and life support should be added in and default to hard difficulty. Yes very good idea! I second this but again, like life support, should be towards the harder preset difficulties.

Fire

[Superfluous J]

I've wanted most of this for quite some time, but for seasons you need axial tilt, and it also helps (or hurts depending on how you look at it) if your space center isn't on the equator.

I think we at LEAST need wind and clouds. And setting up weather satellites sounds like a cool idea.

[worir4]

I think this would be awesome to have in however i think it is unrealistic to expect it. 

I would be happy with clouds that don't actually do anything except look good.

I think weather would be good for the reasons you mentioned (weather satellite contracts, unknown weather on distant planets ect.) but as you say it would be a huge undertaking and would probably take up a whole update and then take a couple more updates to patch and to get it 'RIGHT'.

But hey, its nearly Christmas. We can ask right?

Edited December 11, 2016 by worir4

[HoloYolo]

Clouds+Weather+Axial Tilt=my dream. 

@SQUAD please get on this. Right now.

[rkarmark]

I love the idear of weather 

So i have the idear that storms an powerfull winds would never apper at the ksc because of the mouintian range behind ksc

This would fix the conserns of missing a launch window and would make ksc a even better place to land

Other plases like beikanur (ksc2) and other plases on kerbin would have storms and tyfons (could be a reason that ksc moved) 

The other planets would have their storms too 

[ZooNamedGames]

8 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I've wanted most of this for quite some time, but for seasons you need axial tilt, and it also helps (or hurts depending on how you look at it) if your space center isn't on the equator.

I think we at LEAST need wind and clouds. And setting up weather satellites sounds like a cool idea.

We're also on an absurdly high mass planet with a star that should've collapsed by now  . I think we can just add seasons without needing the realism of tilt. Just have the seasons based on where Kerbin is on it's solar orbit.

[HoloYolo]

Just now, ZooNamedGames said:

We're also on an absurdly high mass planet with a star that should've collapsed by now  . I think we can just add seasons without needing the realism of tilt. Just have the seasons based on where Kerbin is on it's solar orbit.

I could see that. But, would the seasons mechanic apply to all planets/moons with atmospheres, or just Kerbin?

[ZooNamedGames]

Just now, HoloYolo said:

I could see that. But, would the seasons mechanic apply to all planets/moons with atmospheres, or just Kerbin?

Good question... technically all planets, atmosphere or not, have seasons. A planet like Moho would have increased surface temperatures during it's "summers" and more "mild" temperatures for it's winter. but good point. I'd say impact all planets.

[rkarmark]

5 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

We're also on an absurdly high mass planet with a star that should've collapsed by now  . I think we can just add seasons without needing the realism of tilt. Just have the seasons based on where Kerbin is on it's solar orbit.

I don't like that idear kerbin being tiltet.  It would make it hard for alot of newbees (i still think inclanation changes are hard) 

Edited December 11, 2016 by rkarmark

[HoloYolo]

Just now, ZooNamedGames said:

Good question... technically all planets, atmosphere or not, have seasons. A planet like Moho would have increased surface temperatures during it's "summers" and more "mild" temperatures for it's winter. but good point. I'd say impact all planets.

Maybe if you take science at different places in the orbit the flavor text would change. Like in summer a Kerbin grasslands would say "The grass is the greenest. Maybe it was because of summer, or someone spilling the Mystery Goo". In winter the same place would say "The grass is dead, and it feels very cold. Can I go back to the ship now?".

[ZooNamedGames]

4 minutes ago, HoloYolo said:

Maybe if you take science at different places in the orbit the flavor text would change. Like in summer a Kerbin grasslands would say "The grass is the greenest. Maybe it was because of summer, or someone spilling the Mystery Goo". In winter the same place would say "The grass is dead, and it feels very cold. Can I go back to the ship now?".

Very interesting flavor text!

[Tex_NL]

2 hours ago, worir4 said:

I think this would be awesome to have in however i think it is unrealistic to expect it. 

I would be happy with clouds that don't actually do anything except look good.

Clouds are relatively easy. EVE already does a very nice job.
And wind does not need to be much harder. All wind basically is is a sideways force applied to your craft. Add an information layer that defines direction and force dependant on altitude and Bob's your uncle. Rotate this layer in conjunction to the cloud layer around Kerbin and you'll have a reasonable approximation of weather.

2 hours ago, rkarmark said:

I don't like that idear kerbin being tiltet.  It would make it hard for alot of newbees (i still think inclanation changes are hard)

No it doesn't. Launching from a tilted planet is EXACTLY the same as from a non tilted planet. What you're thinking of is the inclination of Mun and Minmus. If Mun and Minmus stay in the same inclination relative to the equator as they are now NOTHING will change within Kerbins SOI.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Tex_NL
Corrected rkarmark's quote in conjuction with his own edit.

[HoloYolo]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Very interesting flavor text!

Thanks, I tried. I think it could be better, but it isn't half bad.

 

[Superfluous J]

8 minutes ago, rkarmark said:

I like that idear kerbin being tiltet would make it hard for alot of newbees (i still think inclanation changes is hard) 

A great proposal was made years ago by I know not whom, to take the entire Kerbin-Mun-Minmus system and tilt it so Minmus was in the same plane as Kerbin orbits Sun. Then, going to Mun and Minmus would be exactly the same but ejecting to other planets, you would need to handle tilt. Too hard? No problem, just launch into an orbit tilted with Minmus and you're good to go. It doesn't *appreciably* add to the difficulty but it does add to the things you need to do, and it's more of a "pure" difficulty than things like "contracts pay 80% of maximum."

Each planet could have its own tilt, balanced so things get harder as you expand. And Gas Giant 2 should have like a 90 degree tilt or something, to make it super unique.

[ZooNamedGames]

11 minutes ago, Tex_NL said:

Clouds are relatively easy. EVE already does a very nice job.
And wind does not need to be much harder. All wind basically is is a sideways force applied to your craft. Add an information layer that defines direction and force dependant on altitude and Bob's your uncle. Rotate this layer in conjunction to the cloud layer around Kerbin and you'll have a reasonable approximation of weather.

No it doesn't. Launching from a tilted planet is EXACTLY the same as from a non tilted planet. What you're thinking of is the inclination of Mun and Minmus. If Mun and Minmus stay in the same inclination relative to the equator as they are now NOTHING will change within Kerbins SOI.

Ok fair enough. But all other planets have to be tilted to adjust for Kerbin's tilt. Again, easier to just have seasons based on where Kerbin is around Kerbol.

[rkarmark]

29 minutes ago, Tex_NL said:

No it doesn't. Launching from a tilted planet is EXACTLY the same as from a non tilted planet. What you're thinking of is the inclination of Mun and Minmus. If Mun and Minmus stay in the same inclination relative to the equator as they are now NOTHING will change within Kerbins SOI.

But getting to everywhere outside of kerbins soi gets alot harder espasialy for newbees

Edited December 11, 2016 by rkarmark

[Tex_NL]

27 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Ok fair enough. But all other planets have to be tilted to adjust for Kerbin's tilt. Again, easier to just have seasons based on where Kerbin is around Kerbol.

You're already changing orbits and tilting planets. Titling one planet or a dozen, it's just numbers. Once you've done one it should only take a few minutes to do them all.

14 minutes ago, rkarmark said:

But getting to everywhere outside of kerbins soi gets alot harder espasialy for newbees

No it doesn't. (Damn. I am starting to repeat myself.)
Launching into plane with Minmus is just a matter of launching at the right heading at the right moment. Lining up your parking orbit to go interplanetary would be just as easy. If you can do it for Minmus you can do it for Duna, Eve or whatever.

And besides that, unless you're many degrees of equatorial your initial parking orbit around Kerbin has very little effect on your orbit in interplanetary space.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Tex_NL

[ZooNamedGames]

Just now, Tex_NL said:

You're already changing orbits and tilting planets. Titling one planet or a dozen, it's just numbers. Once you've done one it should only take a few minutes to do them all.

No it doesn't. (Damn. I am starting to repeat myself.)
launching into plane with Minmus is just a matter of launching at the right heading at the right moment. Lining up your parking orbit to go interplanetary would be just as easy. If you can do it for Minmus you can do it for Duna, Eve or whatever.

Still easier to do the latter...

People who are new don't know to do that. Most just fly up up until they escape Kerbin. They don't know to "line up" the "equatorial plane". They just know point and burn.

[Superfluous J]

6 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Most just fly up up until they escape Kerbin. They don't know to "line up" the "equatorial plane". They just know point and burn.

Those people also burn to escape Kerbin's SOI, then do a second burn in Solar orbit to intercept the other planet. Not knowing about the tilt won't affect them.

And when they get to the point where it WILL affect them, they'll be (presumably) knowledgeable enough in orbital mechanics to know what's going on.

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, 5thHorseman said:

Those people also burn to escape Kerbin's SOI, then do a second burn in Solar orbit to intercept the other planet. Not knowing about the tilt won't affect them.

And when they get to the point where it WILL affect them, they'll be (presumably) knowledgeable enough in orbital mechanics to know what's going on.

Best not to assume in my experience. 

[Superfluous J]

Just now, ZooNamedGames said:

Best not to assume in my experience. 

That goes both way though. You assume they can't, I assume they can. Or at least, they can learn.

I won't go so far as to say anybody who plays KSP can learn it, but I'd be willing to say most everybody who can get to Duna can.

[ZooNamedGames]

4 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

That goes both way though. You assume they can't, I assume they can. Or at least, they can learn.

I won't go so far as to say anybody who plays KSP can learn it, but I'd be willing to say most everybody who can get to Duna can.

Most get there by flying straight. I can get to Duna without ever touching the W/S keys.

[Superfluous J]

2 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Most get there by flying straight. I can get to Duna without ever touching the W/S keys.

But if you did that, and it didn't work, would you be able to figure out why?

And when you figured out it was because you missed a devnote and they updated the game with axial tilt, would you think it was cool or would you lament losing your W/S-free Duna transfers?

Edited December 11, 2016 by 5thHorseman