[1.6.X] Surface Experiment Pack - Deployable science for KIS/KAS! (v2.7 - 13/Jan/19)

[Phelan]

On 4/1/2019 at 4:12 AM, Brigadier said:

I don't know your mod situation but you know that almost all mods that work in 1.4.x will work in 1.6.1?  Have you tried it on a clean 1.6.1 install?

Hm, no, I'll give it a try I think...

[Phelan]

On 4/1/2019 at 4:12 AM, Brigadier said:

I don't know your mod situation but you know that almost all mods that work in 1.4.x will work in 1.6.1?  Have you tried it on a clean 1.6.1 install?

Heh, it's working nicely, though I did need to switch "Unmanned Before Manned", which seems to have a messed up tech tree in 1.6.1 (got the Mk1 pod at the start and no probe core), for "Unkerballed Start". Well, exploring a different tech tree can be fun

[Brigadier]

11 hours ago, Phelan said:

Heh, it's working nicely, though I did need to switch "Unmanned Before Manned", which seems to have a messed up tech tree in 1.6.1 (got the Mk1 pod at the start and no probe core), for "Unkerballed Start". Well, exploring a different tech tree can be fun

Great to hear.  I had run into the problem of the SEP parts leaping off the surface, on both Kerbin and the Mun, when I returned to them after deployment but I haven't confirmed this behaviour under KSP v1.6.1 and GPP+GEP.

[Friznit]

That happens a lot if your ground textures are on any setting other than High.  Try pushing them to the max and it might improve things.

[Brigadier]

7 minutes ago, Friznit said:

That happens a lot if your ground textures are on any setting other than High.  Try pushing them to the max and it might improve things.

I'm always high on textures

[Nistenf]

Hi.

With SEP 2.7.1 and KAS 1.2 (all from CKAN) I can confirm the bug regarding the lack of a "link" option in the context menu for the AKI plug. I can also confirm that adding the old KAS.dll from the LEGACY folder from KAS 1.1 makes it appear again. I did a quick test with one station and one experiment, linked them together and the experiment both calibrated and started. But a lot of other KAS errors showed up while doing this so it's not a real fix. I looked around the config files and found some KAS compatibility patches that seem to replace the KASModuleStrut module used by the plug to something else, for example from KAS/Patches/COMP-LegacyParts.cfg

		MODULE
		{
			name = KASModuleStrut
			action = Drop
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = KASLinkTargetBase
			action = Add
		}

I'm not familiar with what those actions do though. I can also see that no new parts in KAS use the KASModuleStrut, and that the removed LEGACY parts did, so maybe they removed those modules completely? My log file seems to support this:

[LOG 23:05:55.508] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'SurfaceExperimentPackage/Parts/SEP_plug/SEP_plug'
[ERR 23:05:55.523] Cannot find a PartModule of typename 'KASModulePort'

[ERR 23:05:55.523] Cannot find a PartModule of typename 'KASModuleStrut'

And the old KAS.dll at least references the module:

$ grep -R KASModuleStrut *
Binary file KAS/LEGACY/Plugins/KAS.dll matches

Please let me know if I can provide any more info!

Edited April 10, 2019 by Nistenf
missed a 'not'

[KSPanier]

On 4/10/2019 at 4:31 AM, Nistenf said:

Hi.

With SEP 2.7.1 and KAS 1.2 (all from CKAN) I can confirm the bug regarding the lack of a "link" option in the context menu for the AKI plug. I can also confirm that adding the old KAS.dll from the LEGACY folder from KAS 1.1 makes it appear again. I did a quick test with one station and one experiment, linked them together and the experiment both calibrated and started. But a lot of other KAS errors showed up while doing this so it's not a real fix. I looked around the config files and found some KAS compatibility patches that seem to replace the KASModuleStrut module used by the plug to something else, for example from KAS/Patches/COMP-LegacyParts.cfg

		MODULE
		{
			name = KASModuleStrut
			action = Drop
		}
		MODULE
		{
			name = KASLinkTargetBase
			action = Add
		}

I'm not familiar with what those actions do though. I can also see that no new parts in KAS use the KASModuleStrut, and that the removed LEGACY parts did, so maybe they removed those modules completely? My log file seems to support this:

[LOG 23:05:55.508] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'SurfaceExperimentPackage/Parts/SEP_plug/SEP_plug'
[ERR 23:05:55.523] Cannot find a PartModule of typename 'KASModulePort'

[ERR 23:05:55.523] Cannot find a PartModule of typename 'KASModuleStrut'

And the old KAS.dll at least references the module:

$ grep -R KASModuleStrut *
Binary file KAS/LEGACY/Plugins/KAS.dll matches

Please let me know if I can provide any more info!

So replacing the .dll makes the menu dialogue reappear, but all ground-attached parts (including flags) seem to no-longer be able to "land", but are always registered as "suborbital" by the .sfs save file. So timewarp instantly kills your SEP setup. You CAN bypass this by quick saving and savegame editing after leaving the physics range of your landing zone, but it's not how it's supposed to work.

 

Is there already a known way, how to consistently fix this bug?

[CobaltWolf]

So, trying to catch up - are y'all saying KAS removed the 'link' option with no way of replacing it..?

[KSPanier]

9 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

So, trying to catch up - are y'all saying KAS removed the 'link' option with no way of replacing it..?

That's atleast what I observed yesterday. I'll further investigate the behaviour of the SEP parts today (especially this weird suborbital glitch, maybe some other mod is also acting up), but for now it seems mostly disfunctional.

[CobaltWolf]

6 minutes ago, KSPanier said:

That's atleast what I observed yesterday. I'll further investigate the behaviour of the SEP parts today (especially this weird suborbital glitch, maybe some other mod is also acting up), but for now it seems mostly disfunctional.

Yeah, it sounds like for the time being people should revert their KAS version if they can until this shakes out. I can't tell if something got broken in the current release or if it's meant to be something new that just didn't get properly implemented.

[DStaal]

16 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

So, trying to catch up - are y'all saying KAS removed the 'link' option with no way of replacing it..?

Yes, and no.  The port-to-port link option is gone, although there's talk of something replacing it in the future.  The closest current replacement requires a spool of some sort on one end - the point being that the author of KAS didn't like the 'magical' cables appearing between ports - so the cable has to be someplace.  (You could probably put a cable on each experiment I think...)

This is all months old at this point - the older ports (with the links) were marked as legacy and depreciated.  The most recent just dropped the legacy parts.

[Nistenf]

So I did some messing around and managed to get this working with the new KAS modules. I only modified the SEP.plug part: I removed both deprecated KAS modules (KASModulePort and KASModuleStrut) and replaced them with the new modules, by trying to replicate the KAS parts. The plug now has a KASLinkTargetBase module which allows cables to be connected to it, and KASLinkSourceInteractive, KASRendererPipe, KASJointCableBase which allow it to create cables to connect to other plugs. I set this connection as AlwaysCoupled so there's no need to use the GUI after connecting for the experiments to register as connected to the station. This allows the experiments to be calibrated and run, with EC being correctly drained from the station. Both warping and saving/loading seem to work. I also tested having a power station between the central station and the experiment and nothing broke.

Now this is not perfect (at all): since plugs are both a LinkTarget and a LinkSource, it's possible to have two connections for each plug (one as a connection starter, the other as a receiver). This is probably not the way the plugs are supposed to work. Also, since I had to add a new node and had no idea how its coordinates work, the connections are not very pleasing to the eyes (look at the pic). Or maybe it's not about the node but some of the joint configurations, no idea.

Anyway, here's the config for the plug:

PART
{
	name = SEP_plug
	module = Part
	author = AlbertKermin and CobaltWolf
	MODEL
	{
		model = SurfaceExperimentPackage/Parts/SEP_plug
	}
	rescaleFactor = 1.0
	node_stack_top = 0.0, 0.0319243, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0
	node_stack_bottom = 0.0, 0.0319243, 0.0, 0.0, -1.0, 0.0, 0
	node_attach = 0.0, 0.0319243, 0.0, 0.0, -1.0, 0.0, 0
	
	TechRequired = basicScience
	entryCost = 1800
	cost = 100
	category = Electrical
	subcategory = 0
	title = #LOC_SurfaceExperimentPack_plug_title //= AKI Power Transfer Conduit
	manufacturer = #LOC_SurfaceExperimentPack_mfg //= Albert Kermin Industries
	description = #LOC_SurfaceExperimentPack_plug_desc //= This plug is one end of an AKI Power Transfer Conduit. Use it to connect your various Surface Experiment Package components back to the Central Station. Attach one to each end of where you need the conduit, then link them using the right click menu.
	attachRules = 1,0,1,0,1
	mass = 0.002
	dragModelType = default
	maximum_drag = 0.2
	minimum_drag = 0.2
	angularDrag = 1
	crashTolerance = 30
	breakingForce = 2000
	breakingTorque = 2000
	maxTemp = 2000
	bulkheadProfiles = srf
	
	tags = #LOC_SurfaceExperimentPack_plug_tags //= cck-eva-items sep kis kas surface experiment inventory attachment eva plug port power energy (elect cord connector
	
		MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleKISItem
		volumeOverride = 5
		stackable = true
		allowStaticAttach = 1
		staticAttachBreakForce = 2000
	}

	MODULE
	{
		name = KASLinkTargetBase

		// AbstractLinkPeer
		linkType = SEPCable
		linkTypeDisplayName = this is a test
		attachNodeName = top
		allowCoupling = true
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = KASLinkSourceInteractive

		// AbstractLinkPeer
		linkType = SEPCable
		linkTypeDisplayName = this is a test
		attachNodeName = kasSrcAuto0
		attachNodeDef = 0.0, 0.1191, 0.0,  0.0, 1.0, 0.0,  0
		allowCoupling = true

		// KASLinkSourceBase
		jointName = cableJoint
		linkRendererName = cableRenderer
		coupleMode = AlwaysCoupled

		// KASLinkSourceInteractive
		sndPathPlug = KAS/Sounds/grappleAttachEva
		sndPathUnplug = KAS/Sounds/grappleDetach
		sndPathBroke = KAS/Sounds/broke
		startLinkMenu = Link
		breakLinkMenu = Unlink
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = KASRendererPipe

		// KASRendererPipe
		rendererName = cableRenderer
		pipeDiameter = 0.04
		pipeTexturePath = SurfaceExperimentPackage/Parts/pipe
		pipeNormalsTexturePath = KAS/Textures/ProceduralSteelCableNRM
		pipeTextureSamplesPerMeter = 40
		sourceJoint
		{
		}
		targetJoint
		{
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = KASJointCableBase

		// AbstractJoint
		jointName = cableJoint
		anchorAtSource = 0, 0, 0
		anchorAtTarget = 0, 0, 0.0422
		minLinkLength = 0
		maxLinkLength = 5
		linkBreakForce = 100

		// KASJointCableBase
		cableSpringForce = 1000
		cableSpringDamper = 1
	}
}

And here's Bill after plugging the things didn't blow up the whole universe:

Now PLEASE do not use this config in an important save for the following reasons: 1) I have no idea what I'm doing. 2) I've only done limited testing. 3) There's hardcoded text in there 4) There's surely ways to break this and make everything explode violently. 5) I still have no idea what I'm doing.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Nistenf
replaced image so it shows the experiment running

[KSPanier]

Update on my testing:

I fully reverted to KAS 1.1 (I previously only copied extracts from 1.1 to 1.2) and the explosions are mostly gone. They can occur occasionally, but with enough quick saving you can manage to avoid them.

 

Update: The exploding SEP-setup seems to be a stock behaviour and is linked to errors in terrain calculations. It also happens with flags and only occurs after reloading within physics distance of a ground-attached object.

Edited April 16, 2019 by KSPanier

[Friznit]

7 hours ago, Nistenf said:

So I did some messing around...

That's awesome work!  I was just about to embark on this very mission today and you beat me to it.  To be fair I have even less idea what I'm doing but I'm sure with a little help from the magicians this can get fixed up nicely.

[Ruedii]

So is this working with the current KIS/KAS versions yet or does it still need to be upgraded for the link-type system?

Edited April 13, 2019 by Ruedii

[Friznit]

Uhhh, read up two posts?

[phraggers]

For any clueless chumps like me who use CKAN and want a quick fix, just select Kerbal Attachment System in CKAN, click the versions tab on the right and double-click version 1.1 to downgrade from 1.2. Everything seems to work fine after that. Until SEP gets an update I'll stick with KAS 1.1 rather than try any hacky fix!

[techgamer16]

When I right click on the AKI Power Transfer Conduit, no options are available for linking to other conduits, therefore meaning I can't use these experiments.

[Stone Blue]

@techgamer16 try reading back, from this post, on ...

 

[zer0Kerbal]

15 hours ago, techgamer16 said:

When I right click on the AKI Power Transfer Conduit, no options are available for linking to other conduits, therefore meaning I can't use these experiments.

don't you have to attach a plug first?

[captinjoehenry]

Does this work at all with 1.7?

[zer0Kerbal]

3 hours ago, captinjoehenry said:

Does this work at all with 1.7?

Yes, it does for me. /ymmv/

 

//***************************************************************************

Thank you for the mod!

One issue - [AKI GolfClub], well there is a space in the part title.

I know it is both trivial and save breaking, but would you in the next update remove the space in the part title?

The space makes it difficult to auto add the GolfClub to firstseat or everyseat in KIS.

I am working on a MM patch to hide the original part and add a replacement without a space in the part title. I will post here once I get it working.

Edited May 5, 2019 by zer0Kerbal

[CobaltWolf]

So, I suppose there's no easy way to say this, so I just will... but SEP v2.7 (released this past January) will be the last update for SEP, for a number of reasons:

• I checked when I found out about the legacy KAS stuff breaking, I believe I've lost the source files for the parts in the several years since they were originally made, so they would have to get remade from scratch.
• I already wanted to remake the parts for this mod from scratch before I added anything else, but the parts aren't that enjoyable for me to make.
• In general, working on SEP quickly stopped being enjoyable following the initial release, because making and testing these parts is miserable and time consuming. (Testing a fix for SEP can take hours rather than minutes)
• I actively make a much bigger (if less popular) mod, which takes up pretty much all my free time and focus.
• Some things I had planned for SEP (an expansion on hand tools for enhanced soil and rock samples) seem outside the scope of possibility in the current implementation of KSP.
• There are a number of breaking bugs, such as wonkiness with terrain colliders and some quirks of KIS/KAS, that have persisted through the lifetime of the mod and can't be fixed.
• DMagic generally feels the same way as myself on these points. Albert, the author of the original MSEP, does not play KSP anymore and has been in contact with me only once in the last two years.

tl;dr SEP is not an enjoyable way for me to spend my free time.

I'm sorry for not being more active on this thread over the last ~three years. I understand the deafening silence, especially in the face of mod breaking bugs, especially when the bugs are the kind that are within my control, is not fair to our users. It took me a while to get up the nerve to say this, but the changes to KAS and the amount of effort that would be required to make the mod work properly with them, is more effort than I'm willing to put into keeping this mod around.

With all that said, I'm glad that people seem to generally have enjoyed using SEP over the years. Perhaps my longest standing issue with KSP has always been a lack of interesting stuff to do once you build rockets and get to your destination. Though it doesn't approach stuff like Pathfinder or USI, I'm glad to have done a small part with making the surface more interesting.

For the time being, if there is a combination of legacy patches that keep the mod working, I suggest you all keep using that - if there are community fixes, that's great, but me and DMagic would prefer that SEP does not get adopted. And, if you're sad about this mod passing into the ether, don't worry...

-CW

Edited May 5, 2019 by CobaltWolf

[jost]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

tl;dr SEP is not an enjoyable way for me to spend my free time.

For the time being, if there is a combination of legacy patches that keep the mod working, I suggest you all keep using that - if there are community fixes, that's great, but me and DMagic would prefer that SEP does not get adopted. And, if you're sad about this mod passing into the ether, don't worry...

-CW

Thanks that your effort although it wasn't enjoyable at the end. 

I understand, that it's your right to do whatever your want, but can you explain why you prefer that SEP doesn't get adopted, please?

I just would like to understand, and I guess I'm not alone. 

 

Again: Thanks to you and DMagic for  your work!

 

Regards, jost

[Brigadier]

4 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

So, I suppose there's no easy way to say this, so I just will... but SEP v2.7 (released this past January) will be the last update for SEP, for a number of reasons:

<snip>

SEP is not an enjoyable way for me to spend my free time.

<snip>

For the time being, if there is a combination of legacy patches that keep the mod working, I suggest you all keep using that - if there are community fixes, that's great, but me and DMagic would prefer that SEP does not get adopted. And, if you're sad about this mod passing into the ether, don't worry...

-CW

Sorry to hear but your primary reason for not continuing is completely justified and you have my full support.  You've got to enjoy what you're doing with your free time.

I'm also sorry to hear that you've agonized over revealing this decision, but may I say a) kudos to you for making it, b) thanks for letting your users know, and c) well done for doing what was right for you.  I would like to suggest your nervousness was unjustified but it also implies that you were concerned enough with the impact on users' enjoyment of the game.

Thanks for all the work you've put in.