I am making a Modpack Website!

[ForumUser]

This website will allow new members of KSP to email me (I will implement a Upload feature later this year).

I will release the site in May and continue development from there, I will link their forum username (if they provided it to me) and a download link (will be it's website's own download mirror) if modpacks get updated I will specify on the mudpack.

See this as like a spacedock for modpacks (but heavily underdeveloped)

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

Hi I know that you are aware of this thread.

 AS you've replied there !

I gather from this post that you don't care what's being decided there?  you don't care that SpaceDock already provides facilities for wannabe modders to make up modpacks ?. Or that a large part of the current KSP modding community are strongly opposed to the idea ?

Why on earth would anyone upload to an site that the owner states will be undeveloped?  That given your tone and attitude in previous comments, will be an outlet for substandard content and ignoring mod creators wishes . 

If you want to be involved in mod making  , hundreds probably thousands by now have learned how to make mods for KSP,  and aside from motivation and a propensity for hijacking others work,  there is no reason that you, can't, just  like everybody else, start with fuel tanks and rocket pods, without doubt one of the easiest mods to create of all time,

Of all the ways of putting your own parts in a game, Unity and KSP are about the easiest way you'll find anywhere in any game.

 

.

 

[ForumUser]

4 hours ago, SpannerMonkey(smce) said:

Hi I know that you are aware of this thread.

 AS you've replied there !

I gather from this post that you don't care what's being decided there?  you don't care that SpaceDock already provides facilities for wannabe modders to make up modpacks ?. Or that a large part of the current KSP modding community are strongly opposed to the idea ?

Why on earth would anyone upload to an site that the owner states will be undeveloped?  That given your tone and attitude in previous comments, will be an outlet for substandard content and ignoring mod creators wishes . 

If you want to be involved in mod making  , hundreds probably thousands by now have learned how to make mods for KSP,  and aside from motivation and a propensity for hijacking others work,  there is no reason that you, can't, just  like everybody else, start with fuel tanks and rocket pods, without doubt one of the easiest mods to create of all time,

Of all the ways of putting your own parts in a game, Unity and KSP are about the easiest way you'll find anywhere in any game.

 

.

 

All I wanted is to help people. I don't understand why games like KSP should ban Modpacks. We are here to enjoy the games, not censor modpack creators just because some developer was crying about his mod getting famous from modpacks, not the mod itself. I am continuing development of the website, being banned or not.

[HebaruSan]

13 minutes ago, ForumUser said:

All I wanted is to help people. I don't understand why games like KSP should ban Modpacks. We are here to enjoy the games, not censor modpack creators just because some developer was crying about his mod getting famous from modpacks, not the mod itself. I am continuing development of the website, being banned or not.

I don't think you've understood the point of that thread very well. It was not started by a modder, but rather by sal_vager, a SQUAD staff member. The motivation was nothing to do with fame (though it was brought up later by others); rather, he's concerned about the workload that modpacks impose on forum moderators. He says they sometimes have to download, unpack, and inspect large archives by hand, as well as look up the original threads for various mods, to check that the terms and conditions are being followed, just to decide whether to allow a given thread to be posted. He hopes that a blanket ban of modpacks would lighten this load because such threads could simply be deleted without all of that investigation.

If you really want to help people, maybe try acting as a responsible representative of modpack creators. Try to understand the actual concerns that are being raised, acknowledge their validity, and propose constructive compromises. You will have to deal with those concerns in order to convince people who care about them. Repeating this line about a mod author who is supposedly jealous of you does not address sal_vager's concerns about moderation workload.

[linuxgurugamer]

Who said anything about banning you?

You seem to feel that only your opinion counts.  Maybe in your world, but not here.  

I'm speaking as a fairly well known mod author and maintainer.  You have no idea what happens when someone download a modpack which has old versions and then looks for help.

Frankly, I'm seriously thinking of adding version checking into all my mods, so that a mod won't run on an incompatible version of the game.  And it because of modpacks.  More work for me, and frustrated players down the road

Edited March 6, 2017 by linuxgurugamer

[linuxgurugamer]

2 hours ago, ForumUser said:

All I wanted is to help people. I don't understand why games like KSP should ban Modpacks. We are here to enjoy the games, not censor modpack creators just because some developer was crying about his mod getting famous from modpacks, not the mod itself. I am continuing development of the website, being banned or not.

Your idea of "help" is interesting, to say the least.  Do you consider the players who download these modpacks, and then get frustrated because they don't work?

Are you willing to invest the time to investigate every modpack uploaded, play through complete games with each to be sure the players are getting a quality pack?

[Galileo]

Well, this is the kind of thing that has me teetering on the edge of taking my mods down completely until this kind of thing is dealt with.  

Your complete disregard for how much work mod developers put into their mods is astounding and you can't even respect their wishes to not have their mods included in a mod pack. Extremely disrespectful. Modders do this on there free time and have every right to say no to mod packs. For you to ignore that fact is a slap in the face and I hope your site is met with all the resistance this community can muster up.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Galileo

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, Galileo said:

Well, this is the kind of thing that has me teetering on the edge of taking my mods down completely until this kind of thing is dealt with.  

Please don't do that.  That would end up punishing everyone for the bad actions of a single person.

Instead, do what I do:  all of my mods now write the mod version to the log file.  When someone asks for help, I can immediately see what version of the mod they are running, and, if not current, I just tell them to update before reporting bugs.  PM me if you want details on how I do that.

Edited March 6, 2017 by linuxgurugamer

[DoctorDavinci]

9 hours ago, ForumUser said:

This website will allow new members of KSP to email me (I will implement a Upload feature later this year).

I will release the site in May and continue development from there, I will link their forum username (if they provided it to me) and a download link (will be it's website's own download mirror) if modpacks get updated I will specify on the mudpack.

See this as like a spacedock for modpacks (but heavily underdeveloped)

Please don't ... Taking something that someone else has created, wrapping it up and putting it out on the web as your own is theft, plain and simple

Do not pass go ... do not collect $200

[Deddly]

Well it's not actually theft if the license allows it, @DoctorDavinci. But that's the big issue here, isn't it? @ForumUser, these mods are not public domain. Do you understand how complicated licensing is, even for free material? Please read this page. 

Ok, now, after reading that page, are you willing and able to make sure that all mod packs that are added to your site comply with that complicated web of mixed-licensing rules? If you are not willing to check through each and every mod pack manually to compare conflicting licenses and enforce it on your web site, are you prepared for actual legal action and defending yourself in court with the possibility of facing a fine or even a prison term, if some of the mod creators were to sue you?

If you're not willing to do any of the above, then it really isn't a good idea to set up that web site, and then perhaps you can understand why so many people are against the idea.

[Nansuchao]

There's a better idea you can pursue. You can test and group some mods that works very well together, that are for plane lovers or rocket nerds, or both, present said project on your website and provide a download link for any requested mod. That way you will help the noob users and respect the modder's work.

[Shadow Wolf56]

What you could do is make special mod packs, for example, get some mods that make the kerbol system beautiful. 

Also nansuchao's idea is good too

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Shadow Wolf56

[ForumUser]

9 minutes ago, Nansuchao said:

There's a better idea you can pursue. You can test and group some mods that works very well together, that are for plane lovers or rocket nerds, or both, present said project on your website and provide a download link for any requested mod. That way you will help the noob users and respect the modder's work.

It would be like that.

 

1 hour ago, Deddly said:

Well it's not actually theft if the license allows it, @DoctorDavinci. But that's the big issue here, isn't it? @ForumUser, these mods are not public domain. Do you understand how complicated licensing is, even for free material? Please read this page. 

Ok, now, after reading that page, are you willing and able to make sure that all mod packs that are added to your site comply with that complicated web of mixed-licensing rules? If you are not willing to check through each and every mod pack manually to compare conflicting licenses and enforce it on your web site, are you prepared for actual legal action and defending yourself in court with the possibility of facing a fine or even a prison term, if some of the mod creators were to sue you?

If you're not willing to do any of the above, then it really isn't a good idea to set up that web site, and then perhaps you can understand why so many people are against the idea.

I will state the mixing-licenses in  the modpack description.

[Aaron Also]

1 hour ago, Deddly said:

are you prepared for actual legal action and defending yourself in court with the possibility of facing a fine or even a prison term, if some of the mod creators were to sue you?

Fear Monger much? 

No one is going to prison over something like this. At most one may incur a fine for damages; if the complaining party can in fact sufficiently provide evidence of them. What will happen first is a cease and desist order from a lawyer. Failure to comply will likely bring more harsh action. 

 

I don't really agree with the mod pack idea myself; I've thought about doing it, but it is a whole lot of work. Consider that you are essentially taking on the responsibility of a librarian. You must take it upon yourself to ensure that all the mods in the pack are updated and playing well together, and be doing this continually. I have a degree in library science and I can tell you that doing this would/does take most of the enjoyment out of the game. Instead of actually playing a game you will find yourself working at checking mod compatibility and updates more often than you are completing contracts. I thought about it once, worked out what all would be required and decided it was too much work to put into a game. When I Kerbal I want to relax and have fun, not work. I get paid, quite well, to work; and that is the catch with the licensing you basically can't get paid for doing any of this. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Aaron Also

[sal_vager]

8 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

rather, he's concerned about the workload that modpacks impose on forum moderators.

This is only one problem that modpacks cause, and not the reason I originally gave, you'll find that modpacks have caused extra work for moderators elsewhere such as the Minecraft forums.

I admit that the extra work is a concern, the most recent modpack to be posted here is over 1.1gigs, moderators often work via mobile or otherwise have metered internet, having to face gigabyte+ files each day as modpackers try to make an inroad into our community is not exactly a pleasant thought.

I also have to argue the notion that modpackers are providing a service to the modders who's work they take, modders are quite capable of being noticed and attaining fame without a modpackers help, they are after all the ones who created the content to begin with and they are the ones who deserve recognition for that.

@SolidJuho came very close to what I would accept as ideal behaviour from a modpacker, his pack has a theme, he listed all mods and their licenses, he put mods he couldn't include into a list of separate downloads, unfortunately a small handful of the included mods are licensed in a way that disallows redistribution and the modder who created those works has stated he has not given permission.

This was unfortunately the straw that broke the camels back for me, I have yet to see a modpack posted to these forums that didn't cause an issue, with the majority of modpacks being nothing more than blatant theft of modders work for imaginary internet points.

If SolidJuho removes those mods, or gets permission and states that permission in the first post with the agreement of the modder, it will be closer to an acceptable release.

It was mentioned elsewhere that moderators or admins should access member private messages to determine if permission was given, sorry but no that is not going to happen, your private messages are private.

But I think any modpack needs more than that going forwards, modpackers need to show the modpack installed and in use to prove that it does actually work, the moderation team does not have the resources to waste on this, and untested modpacks must be prevented.

Also, modpackers must provide support for their pack, until an issue can be shown to be in a mod and not the pack the modpacker has the responsibility of support to the user, if they refuse help their thread will have to be shut down and their links removed, as one thing I absolutely do not want to see is the kind of attitude I have seen from modpackers elsewhere, who use modpacks only as a means to gain a name for themselves, telling themselves they are somehow doing the modders a favour by uploading a zip of mods with their own name on it, it may even be a point to disallow naming modpacks after the packer.

And there is the matter of honesty, there have been occasions where modpackers have slipped in unknown DLL files with no source, and have not been forthcoming with an explanation, if anything like this is found it would result in an instant and permanent ban for that member.

If a modpacker can do the above then maybe the modpack would be acceptable, anything less would result in instant removal of the modpack and an infraction, with continued flaunting of the rules met with post restrictions, to bans of varying duration up to permanent, just as has been done in the past.

If you want modpacks, you're going to have to work for it.

[ForumUser]

8 hours ago, sal_vager said:

This is only one problem that modpacks cause, and not the reason I originally gave, you'll find that modpacks have caused extra work for moderators elsewhere such as the Minecraft forums.

I admit that the extra work is a concern, the most recent modpack to be posted here is over 1.1gigs, moderators often work via mobile or otherwise have metered internet, having to face gigabyte+ files each day as modpackers try to make an inroad into our community is not exactly a pleasant thought.

I also have to argue the notion that modpackers are providing a service to the modders who's work they take, modders are quite capable of being noticed and attaining fame without a modpackers help, they are after all the ones who created the content to begin with and they are the ones who deserve recognition for that.

@SolidJuho came very close to what I would accept as ideal behaviour from a modpacker, his pack has a theme, he listed all mods and their licenses, he put mods he couldn't include into a list of separate downloads, unfortunately a small handful of the included mods are licensed in a way that disallows redistribution and the modder who created those works has stated he has not given permission.

This was unfortunately the straw that broke the camels back for me, I have yet to see a modpack posted to these forums that didn't cause an issue, with the majority of modpacks being nothing more than blatant theft of modders work for imaginary internet points.

If SolidJuho removes those mods, or gets permission and states that permission in the first post with the agreement of the modder, it will be closer to an acceptable release.

It was mentioned elsewhere that moderators or admins should access member private messages to determine if permission was given, sorry but no that is not going to happen, your private messages are private.

But I think any modpack needs more than that going forwards, modpackers need to show the modpack installed and in use to prove that it does actually work, the moderation team does not have the resources to waste on this, and untested modpacks must be prevented.

Also, modpackers must provide support for their pack, until an issue can be shown to be in a mod and not the pack the modpacker has the responsibility of support to the user, if they refuse help their thread will have to be shut down and their links removed, as one thing I absolutely do not want to see is the kind of attitude I have seen from modpackers elsewhere, who use modpacks only as a means to gain a name for themselves, telling themselves they are somehow doing the modders a favour by uploading a zip of mods with their own name on it, it may even be a point to disallow naming modpacks after the packer.

And there is the matter of honesty, there have been occasions where modpackers have slipped in unknown DLL files with no source, and have not been forthcoming with an explanation, if anything like this is found it would result in an instant and permanent ban for that member.

If a modpacker can do the above then maybe the modpack would be acceptable, anything less would result in instant removal of the modpack and an infraction, with continued flaunting of the rules met with post restrictions, to bans of varying duration up to permanent, just as has been done in the past.

If you want modpacks, you're going to have to work for it.

So, just because you have to work for it, it has to be banned? Also, I made a planetary pack not long ago, I would be happy if it went into a modpack. If modpacks are banned though, I will quit modding, along with thousands of others, maybe turn to some game like Space Engineers or Cities: Skylines, where there aren't censorship for modpack creators. Say goodbye to GPP and Kopernicus, B9 and BDArmory if modpacks are banned.

Edited March 6, 2017 by ForumUser

[Galileo]

16 minutes ago, ForumUser said:

So, just because you have to work for it, it has to be banned? Also, I made a planetary pack not long ago, I would be happy if it went into a modpack. If modpacks are banned though, I will quit modding, along with thousands of others, maybe turn to some game like Space Engineers or Cities: Skylines, where there aren't censorship for modpack creators. Say goodbye to GPP and Kopernicus, B9 and BDArmory if modpacks are banned.

Well, you heard it here. Guess I'm not modding anymore..

as said multiple times, there is a difference between bundling dependencies with permission and encouragement from the original modders and just throwing together your gamedata folder. Mod packs have are already being removed due to licensing. Not a lot will change if it becomes an official ban. Thousands of others will not just stop modding BECAUSE NOBODY MAKES MOD PACKS ANYWAY. They get removed as soon as they go up for the most part. Its hard to miss something that doesn't exist. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Galileo

[sal_vager]

6 minutes ago, ForumUser said:

So, just because you have to work for it, it has to be banned? Also, I made a planetary pack not long ago, I would be happy if it went into a modpack. If modpacks are banned though, I will quit modding, along with thousands of others, maybe turn to some game like Space Engineers or Cities: Skylines, where there aren't censorship for modpack creators. Say goodbye to GPP and Kopernicus, B9 and BDArmory if modpacks are banned.

Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote and calm down ForumUser.

Your planet pack was removed because you included works you had no right or permission to use, if what I have heard of it is true, it is already forbidden to do this by the rules, whether it is a modpack or not.

Modpacks needn't be banned however, if you are prepared to put in the appropriate effort to do them properly, as @SolidJuho is.

If not, thousands of modders will happily carry on producing content and the mods you mentioned will still be available individually, they exist quite happily without modpacks.

It is content creators that add value to the games you listed, and who will continue to do so.

[Gaarst]

18 minutes ago, ForumUser said:

So, just because you have to work for it, it has to be banned? Also, I made a planetary pack not long ago, I would be happy if it went into a modpack. If modpacks are banned though, I will quit modding, along with thousands of others, maybe turn to some game like Space Engineers or Cities: Skylines, where there aren't censorship for modpack creators. Say goodbye to GPP and Kopernicus, B9 and BDArmory if modpacks are banned.

Yeah, no. As discussed in the other thread about banning them, modders usually have a negative standpoint on modpacks, banning them wouldn't make modders leave.

Also, you seem to consider modders and repackers as the same people which is completely wrong. Anyone can zip two mods together and call it a modpack, while modders create original content. Being able to write a mod implies you have the will to spend some time and learn new things to do it (which I personally don't because I'm really really lazy); being able to write a modpack implies you can right click a folder and zip it. Of course if you compare the amount of work put into "advanced" modpacks (RO being the best example even though it doesn't directly redistribute its mods but I'll still consider it this way here for the sake of my argument) to any mod, you'll find that modpacks are more complex and do provide something else that the simple addition of these mods*, but the problem is not this end of the spectrum.

 

* Another issue I see with modpacks is that they don't necessarily bring anything to the game that its component mods couldn't bring when installed manually. I'd welcome a modpack that provides an original framework through which its mods interact more fully (RO again), but unfortunately these are rare.

 

EDIT: back to topic: a modpack website isn't necessarily bad, as long as done right (this is valid for pretty much everything TBH).

Edited March 6, 2017 by Gaarst

[ForumUser]

2 minutes ago, sal_vager said:

Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote and calm down ForumUser.

Your planet pack was removed because you included works you had no right or permission to use, if what I have heard of it is true, it is already forbidden to do this by the rules, whether it is a modpack or not.

Modpacks needn't be banned however, if you are prepared to put in the appropriate effort to do them properly, as @SolidJuho is.

If not, thousands of modders will happily carry on producing content and the mods you mentioned will still be available individually, they exist quite happily without modpacks.

It is content creators that add value to the games you listed, and who will continue to do so.

... I created the planet pack, it was my own mod... I used tutorials to make it. You are a moderator, shouldn't you research before saying random stuff?

[sal_vager]

Just now, ForumUser said:

... I created the planet pack, it was my own mod... I used tutorials to make it. You are a moderator, shouldn't you research before saying random stuff?

As I said...

5 minutes ago, sal_vager said:

if what I have heard of it is true

You released your planet pack on Spacedock, if what I have heard of it is true, and a modder whose work you used asked for it to be removed, Spacedock is not affiliated with Squad, and any issue you have with them is between you and Spacedock.

You must still have the files, we could try to help you be compliant with the rules.

[ForumUser]

5 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

Yeah, no. As discussed in the other thread about banning them, modders usually have a negative standpoint on modpacks, banning them wouldn't make modders leave.

Also, you seem to consider modders and repackers as the same people which is completely wrong. Anyone can zip two mods together and call it a modpack, while modders create original content. Being able to write a mod implies you have the will to spend some time and learn new things to do it; being able to write a modpack implies you can right click a folder and zip it. Of course if you compare the amount of work put into "advanced" modpacks (RO being the best example even though it doesn't directly redistribute its mods) to any mod, you'll find that modpacks are more complex and do provide something else that the simple addition of these mods*, but the problem is not this end of the spectrum.

 

* Another issue I see with modpacks is that they don't necessarily bring anything to the game that its component mods couldn't bring when installed manually. I'd welcome a modpack that provides an original framework through which its mods interact more fully, but unfortunately these are rare.

So what about the "rare" ones? Just because some modpacks don't do it right doesn't mean that every single modpack should be banned. No wonder news outlets point out that KSP developers are quitting their jobs.

You know, 1 to 2 years ago there was no problem with modpacks and modders. What happened? When I joined I saw tons of modpack threads back then

2 minutes ago, sal_vager said:

As I said...

You released your planet pack on Spacedock, if what I have heard of it is true, and a modder whose work you used asked for it to be removed, Spacedock is not affiliated with Squad, and any issue you have with them is between you and Spacedock.

You must still have the files, we could try to help you be compliant with the rules.

Oh my lord.. Just because I support modpacks you think I copy every mod in the entire world and use their files??

https://spacedock.info/mod/1215/More Habitable Planets Mod!

You could look at the files there.

[Stone Blue]

9 minutes ago, ForumUser said:

You know, 1 to 2 years ago there was no problem with modpacks and modders. What happened? When I joined I saw tons of modpack threads back then

Example threads or sources, pleeze?

Hmmm... I've been around daily for almost  4 yrs, and I seem to remember just the opposite... Modpacks have 90% been looked down upon here, for as long as I can remember...

As stated previously, SOME modpacks have extras added in, such as compatability configs, or "tweaks", that arent generally available elsewhere, done by the "mod packer", that make the contents of the modpack all work together... Chaka Monkey or the SETI-<stuff> are prime examples...

And again, permission from the included mod's devs is usually obtained...

So continue, pleese...

Edited March 6, 2017 by Stone Blue

[Deddly]

@ForumUser, I think you need to take @sal_vager's advice and calm down. He just said that mod packs don't necessarily need to be banned, if the packager is willing to put the required effort into it. Isn't that great?

[sal_vager]

7 minutes ago, ForumUser said:

Oh my lord.. Just because I support modpacks you think I copy every mod in the entire world and use their files??

You make no sense with this comment.

7 minutes ago, ForumUser said:

https://spacedock.info/mod/1215/More Habitable Planets Mod!

You could look at the files there.

Are you claiming this is your work? Perhaps you can share with us exactly what happened when your modpack was removed.