totm nov 2023 SpaceX Discussion Thread

[YNM]

8 hours ago, tater said:

The diameter limit for road travel is overpasses/underpasses.

One thing sure : you can always carry something larger, as long as the route permits it.

(obviously not without guards !)

[tater]

1 hour ago, YNM said:

One thing sure : you can always carry something larger, as long as the route permits it.

(obviously not without guards !)

Yes, but that was one trip, never repeated. They had to take down traffic signals, etc. That’s no way to run a business.0

[YNM]

29 minutes ago, tater said:

Yes, but that was one trip, never repeated. 

More in Russia. (well, Europe, despite having an overall tighter and smaller roads.)

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by YNM

[tater]

It’s not the roads. It’s the signs and bridges they have to go under.

[YNM]

41 minutes ago, tater said:

It’s not the roads. It’s the signs and bridges they have to go under.

You just have to get a route that has none / the least amount of them.

[tater]

8 hours ago, YNM said:

You just have to get a route that has none / the least amount of them.

From LA to FL?

LOL. That's not a thing.

Every highway will have bridges over it every XX km. The top of the off ramps will have traffic signals. They'd have to take down things over 1000s of km.

Smaller, State roads will end up being the main street in the towns they go through. More signals. Seriously, it's impossible.

[tater]

Interstate highways:

They look like that everywhere, and local roads go OVER highways, almost always, even in rural areas, else the local roads go under, but the large majority go over in my experience.

 

State highways? Like this:

Otherwise this would be an intersection, with traffic signals that would need to be removed for a rocket. So State roads are worse than interstate highways in terms of obstacles for rockets.

 

This just passed under a highway underpass (left):

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by tater

[YNM]

1 hour ago, tater said:

From LA to FL?

Yes. Depends on how you look.

58 minutes ago, tater said:

and local roads go OVER highways

That's a good start.

59 minutes ago, tater said:

traffic signals

Undo 6 bolts, job done. Or just find a really rural road elsewhere.

After all, the routes are not usually that long. I'm not commenting on US's SpX and their coast-to-coast rocket stage roadhaul business; I'm talking about putting something from manufacturing centers to seaports, or such. (I'm not commenting on BFR either). I'm just commenting on getting big stuff down the road.

Or you just forgo land transport, and airlift them in an even larger aircraft.

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by YNM

[tater]

5 hours ago, YNM said:

Stuff about transporting big things

This is the SpaceX thread. We’re talking about moving Falcon cores. They are the diameter they are specifically because if they were any larger, they could not move on US roads, period. 

Moving a signal is NOT 6 bolts, and it often includes power lines. Even if it was 6 bolts, you might have several signals in the distance it takes a feW minutes to drive. You’d need preplaced crews removing lights, then replacing them as soon as the truck passed over 1000s of km. I bet it would take more people than their total number of employees right now.

Anyone suggesting it literally has no clue about US roads, or railroads for that matter, and should stick to talking about roads in their own country—-which is by definition another thread, because SpaceX.

BTW, vertical clearance for US trains would allow much larger boosters, the problem becomes the fact that track centers (distance between the center of 2 side by side tracks)  end up being worse.

[sh1pman]

Well, good thing that BFR, once assembled, will be able to get to where it’s needed on its own.

[tater]

Or via the Panama Canal  

 

[SuperFastJellyfish]

8 hours ago, YNM said:

Or just find a really rural road elsewhere

I live in rural central Illinois.  Every rural/country road around me has power lines at most intersections at 1 mile intervals in a huge grid across most of the state.  It's something like 13' 6"(~4.1 meters) clearance for the maximum truck height in Illinois due to power lines and bridges.  As long as there are paved roads(no other sane way(edit: well, rail :p ) to transport an orbital rocket overland, otherwise) there are typically, at least, power lines.

Edited May 13, 2018 by SuperFastJellyfish

[HebaruSan]

16 minutes ago, SuperFastJellyfish said:

(no other sane way(edit: well, rail :p ) to transport an orbital rocket overland, otherwise)

Sounds like a job for The Boring Company!

[SuperFastJellyfish]

1 minute ago, HebaruSan said:

Sounds like a job for The Boring Company!

I did say OVERland though.  haha

[YNM]

4 hours ago, tater said:

they could not move on US roads, period.

Esp. when the road is 6000 mi long. Even then, it's only hard, not impossible.

If it's only 30 mi long it should be good. Once every month or something. (or just make a conveniently located manifacturing plant.)

You just need two set of crews - one a few miles ahead, one just nagging the back.

 

2 hours ago, SuperFastJellyfish said:

Every rural/country road around me has power lines at most intersections at 1 mile intervals in a huge grid across most of the state. 

Hold them with a stick. Sometimes it's how you have to do it.

We got worse stuff anyway.

Edited May 13, 2018 by YNM

[Noobton]

We removed some off topic posts. Please try to keep the conversation on the main Space X topic.

[Hannu2]

7 hours ago, YNM said:

Esp. when the road is 6000 mi long. Even then, it's only hard, not impossible.

It is not interesting is it technically possible if whole country wants it at any costs. It is practically impossible if costs of transport are too high and obviously it is the situation in real life. Therefore road transportation is not an option to be taken into account when they decide where to build factories or how to transport rockets.

 

7 hours ago, YNM said:

If it's only 30 mi long it should be good. Once every month or something. (or just make a conveniently located manifacturing plant.)

You just need two set of crews - one a few miles ahead, one just nagging the back.

I am sure that random transport company crews are not allowed to remove signals. Only road owner's (or contracted companies) crew is allowed to make changes. Also only power companies electricians can move power lines. Probably those companies do not have enough crew to make hundreds of such modifications in reasonable time and costs. SpaceX has also intention to increase launch cadence things go even more impossible. Maybe they did not have to count single millions in Shuttle program, but I Musk are going to push paunch costs to single millions per launch, they can not certainly disassemble and reassemble half the country for every rocket.

 

 

[Wjolcz]

I thought it's pretty obvious roads are out of the question when it comes to transporting BFR. Not only would it take weeks or moths to transport at sluggish speeds but also all the things that would get in the way. Panama Canal makes the most sense though it would be really cool if they hopped from the Pacific to somewhere near FL. But we've talked about this already and concluded that it won't happen.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Wjolcz

[YNM]

2 hours ago, Hannu2 said:

I am sure that random transport company crews are not allowed to remove signals.

You'd have someone from FHWA (US) / HE/TS/TW/DfI R (UK) / whoever "owns" the road, and local police/security.

2 hours ago, Hannu2 said:

Also only power companies electricians can move power lines.

Don't think you need permission just to nudge it if it's from yet another govt agency.

Usually in these cases each agency will dispatch a representative / auditor.

2 hours ago, Hannu2 said:

It is not interesting is it technically possible if whole country wants it at any costs.

Like Human Martian Exploration ?

2 hours ago, Hannu2 said:

SpaceX has also intention to increase launch cadence things go even more "impossible".

... In which case they'd probably want to forgo transportation altogether (unless within the plant).

But allright, I have 13 points, and the whackjob measurement was entirely off-topic. Sorry.

[monophonic]

2 hours ago, Hannu2 said:

I am sure that random transport company crews are not allowed to remove signals. Only road owner's (or contracted companies) crew is allowed to make changes. Also only power companies electricians can move power lines. Probably those companies do not have enough crew to make hundreds of such modifications in reasonable time and costs. SpaceX has also intention to increase launch cadence things go even more impossible. Maybe they did not have to count single millions in Shuttle program, but I Musk are going to push paunch costs to single millions per launch, they can not certainly disassemble and reassemble half the country for every rocket.

These kinds of transports, where signs, lightposts and other fixtures are removed and reattached after the load has passed can and do occur every year over hundreds of kilometers even in a small country such as Finland. They are handled by a handful of smaller companies specializing entirely into these kinds of transports, who are very well connected with the various municipalities, government agencies and utility companies whose infrastructure requires manipulation. They either contract with those parties or get permits to do the necessary changes by themselves. Every such transport is a very thoroughly planned operation and the preparation can take anywhere from several months to a couple of years depending on the load and distance to be travelled. The loads typically move during nights and weekends to minimize disruption to regular traffic.

Loads are typically big monolithic industrial equipment such as power substation transformers or biochemical reactor vessels that are difficult to manufacture in place. They can weight up to around 400 tons and be maybe 12 meters wide and tall or 40 meters long. I.e. stuff that is moved once, then sits in one place and provides revenue for many decades. I do not have firm grasp of the costs of such operations, but they must be into millions at least considering how they require many professionals working at night- and weekend rates. And could easily be into tens of millions.

Which says this is obviously a no go for an expendable rocket whose launch campaign costs are to be kept as low as possible. Very hard to justify for a limitedly reusable rocket too, such as pre-block 5 Falcon 9. But for BFR... well, as long as the factory and the launch site are both by the sea, a ship is still cheaper and quite possibly faster too.

[YNM]

3 hours ago, monophonic said:

These kinds of transports, where signs, lightposts and other fixtures are removed and reattached after the load has passed can and do occur every year over hundreds of kilometers even in a small country such as Finland.

Hullo.

Spoiler

 

 

[CatastrophicFailure]

Actually relevant information: 

 

[tater]

 

 

[Nibb31]

Oversize transport is a thing. There are several special routes all over Europe and the USA, which have specially-made removable road equipment, oversize rest areas, road closure barriers, deviation plans, etc...

One such route near where I live is used for transporting A380 sections between Bordeaux (where they arrive by boat) to Toulouse (where the aircraft are assembled). These convoys usually travel at night, once or twice a month, following a public calendar to notify other road users that sections of the road will be closed. Most of the route uses existing roads that have been converted for oversize convoys. In some areas where it was not practical to convert an existing road, they built gravel roadways for the sole purpose of the Airbus convoys.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Nibb31

[tater]

2 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

Oversize transport is a thing. There are several special routes all over Europe and the USA, which have specially-made removable road equipment, oversize rest areas, road closure barriers, deviation plans, etc...

One such route near where I live is used for transporting A380 sections between Bordeaux (where they arrive by boat) to Toulouse (where the aircraft are assembled). These convoys usually travel at night, once or twice a month, following a public calendar to notify other road users that sections of the road will be closed. Most of the route uses existing roads that have been converted for oversize convoys. In some areas where it was not practical to convert an existing road, they built gravel roadways for the sole purpose of the Airbus convoys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGVe0xOMywE

True, it's not impossible to work out over short distances, away from already built up areas. No such route exists literally from the Atlantic to the Pacific in the US, however, which is what it takes to get from LA to KSC (or halfway, just to coastal TX).

Even the cargo rail lines which run from Long Beach Harbor East, and carry vast numbers of double-stacked cargo containers from China inland cannot be used, because there are countless road overpasses (which might take 4-5m rockets, I suppose), and the areas with multiple tracks (usually just 2, one eastbound, one westbound) are too close together for large diameter cargoes. Length also becomes an issue using existing rail lines, or existing roads which are not interstate highways, as the radius of curvature won't allow for long rocket stages.