The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[Mr. Peabody]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:48 PM, fourfa said:

I want to do a caveman run with Mandatory RCS which nerfs reaction wheels and forces real work on reaction control and more piloting effort (the forum page for the mod lists extra parts, mainly smaller RCS jets, but those are now optional). Also deep-throttle engine nerfs, ullage... 

I suppose that would be OK this one time since the mod that you plan to use does increase difficulty without significantly changing game -play. Don't use this decision as a precedent, however. I'll note the that mods were used for your attempt on the cave wall.

As far as the use of mods that re-order the kerbol system or generally increase difficulty (such as life-support) I'm afraid that's a no-go. As I stated earlier the rules relating to mods have remained the same for over four reboots. I don't think it would be my place to change them without the support of the OP. In addition, it just wouldn't be the same challenge if I did. I understand that some of you guys have pretty much beat the challenge, but if you wish to continue by using mods I suggest you try the spin-off KSP Caveman Challenge Evolved.

I've not quite made up my mind on whether to allow plug-ins to improve the time-warp system, improve the lay-out of the tracking station, ect.

8 hours ago, dvader said:

Add a "no contracts" condition and you have to plan for both cash and science return of each mission (thus, grinding the Mun is not an option). It would probably encourage fly-by missions and non-return missions which would be "realistic".

That is actually a very interesting idea. I could create a sub-difficulty for each existing difficulty level that bans contracts just to make things harder. For example, a player could try vanadium without contracts or diamond without contracts. It would be some-what like the low mass/low cost sub-difficulty in the Jool 5.

[IncongruousGoat]

@The Dunatian Except that Corundum, Diamond, and Nano-Diamond are all impossible without contracts, because you start off without enough money to launch anything. You need the initial advance from the first couple contracts just to get something on the pad. The other difficulty levels should be possible without contracts though.

[MinimalMinmus]

3 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

@The Dunatian Except that Corundum, Diamond, and Nano-Diamond are all impossible without contracts, because you start off without enough money to launch anything. You need the initial advance from the first couple contracts just to get something on the pad. The other difficulty levels should be possible without contracts though.

My idea for a C/D/NCD with no contract: You start with a modest sum of cash (let's say 5000/3000/2000 ) and, to prevent you from being inevitably starved of cash (which WILL happen with a cash reward of 10%), cash reward is at (40%/30%/20%).

[dvader]

On 9/14/2018 at 5:40 PM, The Dunatian said:

As far as the use of mods that re-order the kerbol system or generally increase difficulty (such as life-support) I'm afraid that's a no-go.

I've not quite made up my mind on whether to allow plug-ins to improve the time-warp system, improve the lay-out of the tracking station, ect.

That is actually a very interesting idea. I could create a sub-difficulty for each existing difficulty level that bans contracts just to make things harder.

Yes, any modded caveman versions should be a new challenge with a new  thread. The possible combinations of mods are endless and would just make this thread more confusing.

I'd say no to time warp. It would be really helpful for interplanetary but it also allows for rather silly things like 2340 year long missions. It makes bad slingshots less dreadful since you can just wait for a couple thousand years to get another chance.

5 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

@The Dunatian Except that Corundum, Diamond, and Nano-Diamond are all impossible without contracts, because you start off without enough money to launch anything. You need the initial advance from the first couple contracts just to get something on the pad. The other difficulty levels should be possible without contracts though.

Yes, it can't be a direct sub-difficulty as in "complete no-contract and the regular is also completed" for HardS. Also, Moderate/Vanadium wasn't very hard with no contract so I don't think Hard will be very hard. But, as a non-compatible challenge with modified rules it could be doable. Adding 10k starting cash should be enough to avoid the first launch issue.  I would probably also change the funding level to match the science, i.e. 30% funding and 30% science just so the funding issue gets progressively harder just like the science. Also, I would ban Kerbin biomes since they are cheap (no funding cost), yield a lot of science and are fairly boring (NCD won't be doable anyway). But, then there are so many differences to the original challenge that a new thread might be a better place to avoid confusion.

EDIT: Pretty much what @MinimalMinmus said. Great minds think alike I guess the best way would be to test it and see what would be reasonable limits.

Edited September 16, 2018 by dvader

[Muetdhiver]

3.2X / UBM / Snarkiverse / Missing history would indeed be a completly different caveman challenge.

I added the anomalies missions because those are really neat and cool to do.

I have installed the mods for it, but I still hesistate on some additional mods. I'll have a go at it as is, with corundrum setup (will have to check re-entry heat at 120%+3.2X because IIRC it becomes very nasty)

I enough of us are interested in such ideas, maybe we should spawn a new challenge thread ?

First I will tiptoe the waters to gauge the difficulty of it.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Muetdhiver

[Sirad]

Well.

Now im adding my Contribution to this Challenge.

Played with 1.45

I did the Caveman Challenge at Hard.

These were my settingd

And my Flag :-)

First research is done the usual Way. Slab together some stuff and try to get as high as possible.

One of my major Rockets a bit later. Orbiting Mun, Orbiting Minmus High and Low Science. Not Capable of Returning Physical Science. only transfering Science.

Looks weir, but i havent researched the small decoupley by now

Performing.

In Orbit.

View in Orbit.

Landed At Minmus

Trying to get back, but not enough DV left so quickly transfering what i got from the Ground.

Now this is the S13, 2 Generations afar, this Rocket is able to land on Minmus and Return Physical Science from there.

This was the Workhorse. Each Biome just returned 90 Science from Minmus.

Orbit View

While Landing

Landed. (well i managed to get off the Planet even being topped over)

Praise RCS

And Off she goes

In Orbit of Minmus, quite enough DV left to get back to Kerbin

6-7 Rounds breaking Orbits have to be flown because the Top of the rocket is very vulnerable to Heat

Made it.

First Return of Science from Minmus

This is the Precious S13

Looks just... Cavemany

This got Routine and the S13 brought me back 90 Science from each Biome of Minmus.

This rocket was even capable of landing at Mun (some science returned from there) but not take off.

Last Entry to Minmus Atmosphere for the last bit of Science.

Done!

For the Statistic

2

3

4

5

Thats it. inbetween there was a high hurdle where i'd have to take a line of some testing contracts but in case that this dont count i have 2 Biomes left at Minmus so i could even get some additional Science there....

 

Well. now im feeling.... hm.... having lost my knowledge of everything beyond the Use of Fire.

am i Valid for the Badge now ?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Sirad

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, Sirad said:

Thats it. inbetween there was a high hurdle where i'd have to take a line of some testing contracts but in case that this dont count i have 2 Biomes left at Minmus so i could even get some additional Science there....

Contract science most definitely counts.. so no worries on that score.

Congratulations!

(It's interesting to see how even after all this time, no two cavemen take quite the same approach to the challenge.. well done!)

[Mr. Peabody]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:35 AM, Sirad said:

I did the Caveman Challenge at Hard.

@Sirad, A little more part clipping than I would like on the last Minmus flight, but everything else looks "A" OK. Congratulations on completing the KSP Caveman Challenge - Hard Difficulty! You may claim your badge. 

[Cave wall updated]

[Jacke]

So, I'm getting ready to do a Caveman run (after I finish some recce for another project) and was wanting to clarify some of the details.

21 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

A little more part clipping than I would like....

How much part clipping is allowed?   That's not mentioned in the original post.  Anything else specific besides generally avoiding what makes the stock game easier?

And the other constraints mentioned, example "No kraken/ladder drives or similar contraptions"

What exactly are kraken/ladder-drives?   Are ladder drivers a spacecraft with a Kerbal hanging onto a ladder to get EVA reports off the surface of Kerbin?  (Which is supposed to be impossible with all level 1 facilities.)  Other likely contraptions likely to match this one?

For the top three tiers, Corundum, Diamond, and Nanocrystaline Diamond, this post is used as the standard with respectively 30%, 20%, and 10% Science return.  But that's an older version of KSP.  For 1.4.5, I'm assuming "Enable Comm Network" is On, which finishes the currrent Basic Game Difficulty screen.  But what about the Advanced Game Difficulty?  Do we follow what @Human Person did in the 2nd post ?

[Mr. Peabody]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

So, I'm getting ready to do a Caveman run (after I finish some recce for another project) and was wanting to clarify some of the details.

How much part clipping is allowed?

What exactly are kraken/ladder-drives?   Are ladder drivers a spacecraft with a Kerbal hanging onto a ladder to get EVA reports off the surface of Kerbin?  (Which is supposed to be impossible with all level 1 facilities.)  Other likely contraptions likely to match this one?

For the top three tiers, Corundum, Diamond, and Nanocrystaline Diamond, this post is used as the standard with respectively 30%, 20%, and 10% Science return.  But that's an older version of KSP.  For 1.4.5, I'm assuming "Enable Comm Network" is On, which finishes the currrent Basic Game Difficulty screen.  But what about the Advanced Game Difficulty?  Do we follow what @Human Person did in the 2nd post ?

OK here goes.

1. While technically not forbidden by the challenge rules, I generally try to avoid excessive clipping of functional parts. Batteries, fuel tanks, ect.

2. A kraken/ladder drive is any device that exploits game bugs to produce infinite delta-v. Riding a ladder into space is not considered a kraken/ladder drive because it produces no propulsion. Example of ladder drive here.

3. Stupid me! I should have realized that I needed an updated screenshot of the starting difficulty for the new version. I'll get right on it. Also, enable comnetwork is switched on for 1.4.5.

I hope that answers your questions.

[Human Person]

4 hours ago, Jacke said:

Do we follow what @Human Person did in the 2nd post ?

Good luck with that. I gave up because of the unbelievable grind that comes with those settings. I'm not saying it's impossible though.

[IncongruousGoat]

4 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

OK here goes.

1. While technically not forbidden by the challenge rules, I generally try to avoid excessive clipping of functional parts. Batteries, fuel tanks, ect.

2. A kraken/ladder drive is any device that exploits game bugs to produce infinite delta-v. Riding a ladder into space is not considered a kraken/ladder drive because it produces no propulsion. Example of ladder drive here.

3. Stupid me! I should have realized that I needed an updated screenshot of the starting difficulty for the new version. I'll get right on it. Also, enable comnetwork is switched on for 1.4.5.

I hope that answers your questions.

In response to 1: I think the rules here get increasingly flexible as the difficulty tier you're attempting goes up. A couple of the ships I used for my NCD run were part-clipped to kingdom come (For Emily, Whenever I May Find Her being the most egregious example), but I think that was let slide because... well... NCD.

@Jacke Expanding on number 2: Not only are you allowed to have an EVA kerbal ride a ladder into orbit, you're actively encouraged to do so. Breaking the rules isn't allowed. Circumventing the rules in as creative a way as possible is practically the point of the challenge.

In response to 3: I suggest going by the standard @dvader established for his Corundum/Diamond/NCD runs and using the default settings for Hard for the advanced settings. Actually making the advanced settings as bad as possible causes a number of problems, including no data transmission and no unmanned probes.

[Sirad]

On 9/24/2018 at 6:09 PM, The Dunatian said:

@Sirad, A little more part clipping than I would like on the last Minmus flight, but everything else looks "A" OK. Congratulations on completing the KSP Caveman Challenge - Hard Difficulty! You may claim your badge. 

[Cave wall updated]

Hm Sorry for the Clipping, it was only for visual appealing :-) This rocket flies quite well without the Science container clipped into the Battery

Thanks for the Badge, I already proudly added it.

[Jacke]

 

22 hours ago, IncongruousGoat said:

In response to 3: I suggest going by the standard @dvader established for his Corundum/Diamond/NCD runs and using the default settings for Hard for the advanced settings. Actually making the advanced settings as bad as possible causes a number of problems, including no data transmission and no unmanned probes.

I think there's some options that may have to be adjusted from the default Hard Advanced Game Difficulty.

I can see the Pressure and G-Force Limits being enabled.  Also perhaps Require Signal for Control and Plasma Blackout.

 

[MinimalMinmus]

Corundum isn't impossible, but it's NOT easy. The first few launches must be done with a 100% success rate or almost so or you will be thrown off course. You must predict the result as best as possible, and if one single kerbal dies, you will have to restart.

Try to recycle as much as possible, and make every kerbucks count.

[dvader]

On 9/26/2018 at 9:55 PM, Jacke said:

 

I think there's some options that may have to be adjusted from the default Hard Advanced Game Difficulty. 

I can see the Pressure and G-Force Limits being enabled.  Also perhaps Require Signal for Control and Plasma Blackout.
 

I don't think there is a standard for those settings (yet). I probably didn't use the same settings for my Corundum/Diamond/NCD runs. For NCD I enabled all except Require Signal for Control as can be seen here:

I would also claim that those extra settings don't make much a difference for the difficulty. Plasma blackout just means you have to build a good comnet before sending probes (or be carefull with reentry) but probes are unmanned so a lost one is only lost cash and game time. Require Signal can save an unmanned mission if you screw up but again, it's unmanned so it just a loss and not Game Over . G-Forces... I don't know... I don't think I've ever had anything explode due to G-forces (unintentionally). So, I personally don't think it matters much if they are enabled or not.

 

[Mr. Peabody]

Alright fellow Cavemen, your leader *ahem* has earned his private's stripes! Behold, my Vanadium (moderate) entry.  Here.

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, The Dunatian said:

Behold, my Vanadium (moderate) entry.  Here.

Congratulations!  (I really need to play more KSP.)

And that made me wonder what the Caveman Challenge would be like with Deadly Reentry added....  Would definitely change the missions.  But as long as funds-positive missions could be done, probably doable.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Jacke

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, The Dunatian said:

Alright fellow Cavemen, your leader *ahem* has earned his private's stripes! Behold, my Vanadium (moderate) entry.  Here.

Congratulations!

Interesting twin-engined version of the Flying Sparkplug you have there.. I like it..   

[JAFO]

On 10/4/2018 at 10:03 AM, The Dunatian said:

Behold, my Vanadium (moderate) entry.

Almost forgot.. congrats also on going for a crewed Minmus landing.. so few cavemen do that..

[Mr. Peabody]

11 hours ago, JAFO said:

Almost forgot.. congrats also on going for a crewed Minmus landing.. so few cavemen do that..

Thanks @JAFO! That may have had more to do with me being too lazy to design a new unmanned rocket. By the way, thanks for posting your design for a crewed Minmus landing. It really helped put me on the right track.  I hope to try Topaz difficulty in the not so distant future.

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, The Dunatian said:

By the way, thanks for posting your design for a crewed Minmus landing. It really helped put me on the right track.

  I'm glad it helped..  

Incidentally, I'm currently up to my 3rd variant of the Flying Sparkplug. You can find all of them at KerbalX.

Edited October 5, 2018 by JAFO

[dvader]

On 10/4/2018 at 2:03 AM, The Dunatian said:

Alright fellow Cavemen, your leader *ahem* has earned his private's stripes! Behold, my Vanadium (moderate) entry.  Here.

Nice! What mods do you have installed? The particle effects are some of the nicest I've seen. Like this one with the extra dust/smoke cloud behind it:

I'm also surprised how many different versions there are of the initial "Flea Swarm" rocket. I suppose the extra command module is for redundancy and good looks

 

 

[Superfluous J]

18 hours ago, JAFO said:

Almost forgot.. congrats also on going for a crewed Minmus landing.. so few cavemen do that..

Hey I did *two* crewed landings on Minmus!

Neither actually RETURNED from Minmus but still...

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Hey I did *two* crewed landings on Minmus!

Neither actually RETURNED from Minmus but still...

That's why I said "so few"..   To my knowledge, there's only you, I and @The Dunatian that have done so.

I did two crewed landings on Minmus as well.. (but both returned alive!)

(For that matter, now I think back on it, your "Kill Me Not" was the inspiration for the Flying Sparkplug.)

Edited October 6, 2018 by JAFO
grammar