Air Superiority Fighter Competition

[Thor Wotansen]

Small laser fighters are actually quite easy, I just threw this together and two of them absolutely demolished a pair of Bryntrölls.  So yeah, lasers are OP.

[HeroBrian_333]

Submit it, and I know of a mod that will de-OP these against my crafts. Ever heard of DCK?

Also, Back on my PC. Yay, no more managing my post on my phone!

[Piatzin]

2 minutes ago, Thor Wotansen said:

Small laser fighters are actually quite easy, I just threw this together and two of them absolutely demolished a pair of Bryntrölls.  So yeah, lasers are OP.

 

1 minute ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

Submit it, and I know of a mod that will de-OP these against my crafts. Ever heard of DCK?

Ergh, my drones are going to be wrecked with all these modded craft

[Thor Wotansen]

Just now, Earthlinger said:

Ergh, my drones are going to be wrecked with all these modded craft

The only mod on that thing is BDArmoury.

[HeroBrian_333]

2 minutes ago, Thor Wotansen said:

The only mod on that thing is BDArmoury.

What, DCK? It doesn't do much, just adds some paints and armor. Did I mention that THE PAINT REDUCES YOUR RADAR SIGNATURE, AND THE ARMOR HAS NO EFFECT ON PHYSICS (OTHER THAN WEAPONS) AND IS INVISIBLE? MUAHAHAHAHA!!!! *cough cough* Sorry, I get like that sometimes.

Edited November 17, 2017 by HeroBrian_333

[Piatzin]

1 minute ago, Thor Wotansen said:

The only mod on that thing is BDArmoury.

Yes I know, but this competition is open to aircraft with several mods. My craft are BDA exclusive though (most are for the kethane station series) and will probably be inferior in the face of other weapon mods.

[HeroBrian_333]

So make some new craft. I'm looking at a few new prospects.

[Thor Wotansen]

One of my AIM-120s decided to go intergalactic.

[53miner53]

11 minutes ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

@53miner53 Did you test fly it? If so, how did it handle? Also what do you need KF for?

I test flew it against Fighter 2, and it thoroughly dominated, and almost never stalls now. Since I added MOAR reaction wheels as well, it handles much better post stall, so it can use that instead of fight it when it does.

KF is needed for the repulsors. I thought it would look cooler if it hovered! 

[HeroBrian_333]

Nice Idea! Mind if I borrow it? (And by that I mean I'm using it)

[HeroBrian_333]

New battle commencing: @Eidahlil's Monstron vs. @FleshJeb's Be Gentle

Correction: Battle will have to wait until tomorrow. I have a prior engagement that I forgot about, and I will not be able to get back to my PC later. Sorry.

[MiffedStarfish]

36 minutes ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

What, DCK? It doesn't do much, just adds some paints and armor. Did I mention that THE PAINT REDUCES YOUR RADAR SIGNATURE, AND THE ARMOR HAS NO EFFECT ON PHYSICS (OTHER THAN WEAPONS) AND IS INVISIBLE? MUAHAHAHAHA!!!! *cough cough* Sorry, I get like that sometimes.

This is what I meant about mods not being balanced against stock. I think I’ll participate, but only against stock+BDA planes with no turrets or lasers. I’ll have a craft to submit tomorrow. (I’m using most of my fighters in a RP off forums, so is it ok if I PM you the craft file?)

[HeroBrian_333]

I'm not going to be using the armor (too much weight = less maneuverability) and radar signature decrease is not great when opponent has a visual. I already said no turrets other than 50 cal. (Which is weak), and I guess that lasers can be banned as well. However, mods that add better looking parts and better engines and wheels will NOT be banned, as they are easy to obtain. Anyway, most people are just using BDA and stock anyway.

[HafCoJoe]

13 hours ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

@Thor Wotansen Nice job! Love the looks, but could you take a screenshot of the AI settings so I can make sure they are set right on my end?

Also, I have a plane I downloaded  (not weponized) that can turn 360 in 1 sec. (No joke!) It's called the Volta XV Spear, its made by @Avera9eJoe, and it is amazing. Look it up, he posted a video showing how he built it.

I've been summoned! Thanks for the shout out!!! Honestly it makes my day to hear you like the Spear so much In a quick nutshell, the reason the Spear can flip around so quickly is because it's an extremely unstable design - the CoM is actually behind the CoL a smidge and the SAS corrects this. I explain it more in the video but it basically when you pitch hard up or down it causes the plane to stall and try to fly backwards... The SAS is what keeps it stable and makes it not.

 

As another note I attempted weaponizing the Spear in the past but stopped after an update. If you want to mess around with it and repost it feel free.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Avera9eJoe

[HeroBrian_333]

2 hours ago, Avera9eJoe said:

I've been summoned! Thanks for the shout out!!! Honestly it makes my day to hear you like the Spear so much In a quick nutshell, the reason the Spear can flip around so quickly is because it's an extremely unstable design - the CoM is actually behind the CoL a smidge and the SAS corrects this. I explain it more in the video but it basically when you pitch hard up or down it causes the plane to stall and try to fly backwards... The SAS is what keeps it stable and makes it not.

 

As another note I attempted weaponizing the Spear in the past but stopped after an update. If you want to mess around with it and repost it feel free.

@Avera9eJoe I saw the video, and it was cool! I have tried to replicate this effect before, but with no sucsess. However, thank you for showing me the BigS wing strakes as fuel tanks and EEX. They are both very useful. Also, I would love to weaponize the Volta XV's. Can you post the weaponized versions on KerbalX and give my post a shoutout?

Edited November 18, 2017 by HeroBrian_333

[HafCoJoe]

1 hour ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

@Avera9eJoe I saw the video, and it was cool! I have tried to replicate this effect before, but with no sucsess. However, thank you for showing me the BigS wing strakes as fuel tanks and EEX. They are both very useful. Also, I would love to weaponize the Volta XV's. Can you post the weaponized versions on KerbalX and give my post a shoutout?

Sure! I'll even out them in the same hangar as the rest. If you can mimic the screenshot angles I did with the other two that'd be awesome, I'd arrange it the same and include in the description that it was revamped for BDA by you. Might put it in the title too if you want? Always good to differentiate between authors.

[HeroBrian_333]

55 minutes ago, Avera9eJoe said:

Sure! I'll even out them in the same hangar as the rest. If you can mimic the screenshot angles I did with the other two that'd be awesome, I'd arrange it the same and include in the description that it was revamped for BDA by you. Might put it in the title too if you want? Always good to differentiate between authors.

No problem. You should submit a new aircraft to the competition, and I'll enter the Volta XV Spear (Weaponzed by HeroBrian_333) into the challenge under your name of that's ok.

[HafCoJoe]

3 hours ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

No problem. You should submit a new aircraft to the competition, and I'll enter the Volta XV Spear (Weaponzed by HeroBrian_333) into the challenge under your name of that's ok.

Hm, could you possibly PM me so we can discuss a bit more in depth? I'm sure I've been out of the loop enough that there's info and questions I'd love to ask about.

[MiffedStarfish]

10 hours ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

I'm not going to be using the armor (too much weight = less maneuverability) and radar signature decrease is not great when opponent has a visual. I already said no turrets other than 50 cal. (Which is weak), and I guess that lasers can be banned as well. However, mods that add better looking parts and better engines and wheels will NOT be banned, as they are easy to obtain. Anyway, most people are just using BDA and stock anyway.

Ok. I’ll enter later today. I don’t want to download any mods though, as adding and removing them can corrupt save files.

[AeroGav]

All this time playing Kerbal and I've never downloaded BDA. so I finally put it on last night and had a steep learning curve.

I've built aerobatic planes before and like to stack a load of reaction wheels inside an airplane that's basically stable - at high speeds it flies normally at moderate aoa, and won't give you high AoA no matter how hard you pull, but at low speed (or high altitude) you can pull past the stall angle thanks to the reaction wheels.   When you let go, it straightens out itself.

Well, this doesn't work in BDA.     The AI pilot has the finesse to control AoA better than a human,  and low speeds are suicidal - swivel the nose all you want, you 're not actually changing position much so you're an easy missile kill.     High TWR - 1.2 to 1.8 -is needed for you to stand a chance.      Combined with moderate AoA,  you can make a succession of maneuvers without running out of energy.     However,  the more wing area you have relative to weight, the tighter you can turn without getting into energy sapping large AoAs.

So, the reaction wheels are a waste of mass, it's all about getting lots of engine and wing onto the plane, and having it finely balanced with responsive controls.           

I started off with a single engine, single cannon airplane with large wings and canards.    It could fly tight circles around the VAB,  but always seemed to loose out in head on passes against opponents packing two or three cannon.   The large wings are probably easier to hit too.   With a low TWR,  opponents would just run away out of gun range after overflying it,  and come back for another head-on, rather than get sucked into a turning battle.

So,  moar boosters (3 engines)

https://kerbalx.com/AeroGav/Kryfoon

Turn and burn isn't everything though - I've noticed a lot of kills happening because one plane is targeting another and ignoring the guy on his six, in many-vs-many engagements,    or  getting gun killed because the plane is maneuvering  to avoid missiles rather than the guy chasing him in gun range.    I did try removing the centre engine and mounting a laser to deal with the missiles, but the AI pilot doesn't seem to use it. 

Also note the fairing in the above pic.   Had to replace with normal nose cone because it messes with the AI pilot - you get an error message in the logs as soon as weapons go hot, then it kind of gets stuck in a left turn, never firing or taking evasive action.

Seems to mostly loose against the Bryntröll,  even when the weapons are actually firing.  Not sure why :-(

 

edit 14.15pm   it seems to shoot itself down a lot,  could be the reason ! Moved the missiles so they don't crash into the canards...

Edited November 18, 2017 by AeroGav

[Thor Wotansen]

Interesting design you got there @AeroGav.  To be completely honest, I don't know why the Bryntröll works so good.  I designed it almost a year ago while working on a rover challenge, to make planting flags in rough terrain quick and easy.  This role demanded fairly short takeoffs and landings, hence the air brakes and rear wheel protecting the engines.  My guess on what makes it good is the pitch authority from both the canards and the vectored thrust, and the balance being just right for the AI pilot.  I've tested it against things that have higher TWR and lower wing loading, varying levels of stability and weaponry, and I haven't been able to build anything that can consistently beat it 2 v 2, except the tiny plane with the laser, but that's kinda cheating.

[HeroBrian_333]

6 hours ago, Avera9eJoe said:

Hm, could you possibly PM me so we can discuss a bit more in depth? I'm sure I've been out of the loop enough that there's info and questions I'd love to ask about.

@Avera9eJoe Is there a way to do that through the forums?

 

1 hour ago, AeroGav said:

All this time playing Kerbal and I've never downloaded BDA. so I finally put it on last night and had a steep learning curve.

I've built aerobatic planes before and like to stack a load of reaction wheels inside an airplane that's basically stable - at high speeds it flies normally at moderate aoa, and won't give you high AoA no matter how hard you pull, but at low speed (or high altitude) you can pull past the stall angle thanks to the reaction wheels.   When you let go, it straightens out itself.

Well, this doesn't work in BDA.     The AI pilot has the finesse to control AoA better than a human,  and low speeds are suicidal - swivel the nose all you want, you 're not actually changing position much so you're an easy missile kill.     High TWR - 1.2 to 1.8 -is needed for you to stand a chance.      Combined with moderate AoA,  you can make a succession of maneuvers without running out of energy.     However,  the more wing area you have relative to weight, the tighter you can turn without getting into energy sapping large AoAs.

So, the reaction wheels are a waste of mass, it's all about getting lots of engine and wing onto the plane, and having it finely balanced with responsive controls.           

I started off with a single engine, single cannon airplane with large wings and canards.    It could fly tight circles around the VAB,  but always seemed to loose out in head on passes against opponents packing two or three cannon.   The large wings are probably easier to hit too.   With a low TWR,  opponents would just run away out of gun range after overflying it,  and come back for another head-on, rather than get sucked into a turning battle.

So,  moar boosters (3 engines)

https://kerbalx.com/AeroGav/Kryfoon

Turn and burn isn't everything though - I've noticed a lot of kills happening because one plane is targeting another and ignoring the guy on his six, in many-vs-many engagements,    or  getting gun killed because the plane is maneuvering  to avoid missiles rather than the guy chasing him in gun range.    I did try removing the centre engine and mounting a laser to deal with the missiles, but the AI pilot doesn't seem to use it. 

Also note the fairing in the above pic.   Had to replace with normal nose cone because it messes with the AI pilot - you get an error message in the logs as soon as weapons go hot, then it kind of gets stuck in a left turn, never firing or taking evasive action.

Seems to mostly loose against the Bryntröll,  even when the weapons are actually firing.  Not sure why :-(

 

edit 14.15pm   it seems to shoot itself down a lot,  could be the reason ! Moved the missiles so they don't crash into the canards...

Looks good! I'll enter it into the contest.

[AeroGav]

Is there any way to get the AI pilot to use more than one weapon ?   I tried putting a laser on the nose, but rather than engaging the incoming missiles with the laser while  continuing to fire its own missiles at the target,  it just uses one weapon type.     So it tries to dodge the incoming missiles with chaff etc, turning away from the opponent, and if it doesnt get shot down that way ,  sometimes it decides to go for another AIM120 shot while the range has decreased to 3km,  and starts flying away from a faster opponent it can out turn easily, because it is trying to get more range for optimal AMRAAM engagement distance.

Or in a duel with the Monstron,   taking one shot with the AMRAAM, then using either cannon or laser.   Not both, and leaving the rest of the missiles on the pylon !

[HeroBrian_333]

1 minute ago, AeroGav said:

Is there any way to get the AI pilot to use more than one weapon ?   I tried putting a laser on the nose, but rather than engaging the incoming missiles with the laser while  continuing to fire its own missiles at the target,  it just uses one weapon type.     So it tries to dodge the incoming missiles with chaff etc, turning away from the opponent, and if it doesnt get shot down that way ,  sometimes it decides to go for another AIM120 shot while the range has decreased to 3km,  and starts flying away from a faster opponent it can out turn easily, because it is trying to get more range for optimal AMRAAM engagement distance.

Or in a duel with the Monstron,   taking one shot with the AMRAAM, then using either cannon or laser.   Not both, and leaving the rest of the missiles on the pylon !

Sorry, no there is not. And no lasers. I forgot to add that to the rules last night, but I added it this morning. sorry if that messes up your design too much.

[Piatzin]

When are my Berzerker drones going to see some action?

Working on a new craft though