Are humans smart?

[splatn't™]

Humans should be considered smart, however, they have done some pretty dumb things. cough india shooting a satellite cough. So, would that make humans smart, or idiotic.
Think hard about it.

[razark]

 

 

[Bill Phil]

An individual can be highly smart. Groups can be tremendously dumb.

[Lisias]

I think we should differentiate smartness from intelligence. 

Some of the most intelligent people I know are incredibly clueless, and rarely I find a smart guy that's also so intelligent as he/she is smart.

Smart people easily own the clueless, and I think this is the reason a group of intelligent people usually ends acting as they were dumb.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Lisias
Krakens take these damned mobile autocorrectors!

[razark]

3 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Some of the most intelligent people I know are incredibly clueless

This is quite true.  Just because a person is highly knowledgeable in one area, does not mean they are highly knowledgeable in any other area.  I've dealt with a few people in life that may be highly successful in their career, but I still wonder how they manage to make it to work every day.

[Superfluous J]

I actually gave this some thought a long time ago and never really revisited it because like so many head experiments, you can't really solve it without more information than is possible to get.

Take a semi-smart animal, that obviously displays some form of thinking but is also not capable of higher thought. A dog can understand concepts like "fire bad" or angry owner means don't go running around like a fool. But a Dog can't understand the square cube law or how computer's work, even if you could "speak dog" and teach it.

What if Humans are the same way? We can understand the square cube law, sure. We can devise ways to determine if planets are orbiting other stars, no problem. But we can't even CONCEIVE of... nebulous thing that I can't even conceive of because I'm a dumb Human.

[Canopus]

You also have to consider that all Human advancement come through century of improving on already existing ideas. If you release a kid into the wild without any human interaction and education, it won‘t just come up with the square cube law, it won‘t be much more than just another Animal.

[Superfluous J]

14 minutes ago, Canopus said:

You also have to consider that all Human advancement come through century of improving on already existing ideas. If you release a kid into the wild without any human interaction and education, it won‘t just come up with the square cube law, it won‘t be much more than just another Animal.

If you take a caveman baby and bring it to 2019 and raise it it could learn the square cube law. The same cannot be said of a dog.

[Canopus]

5 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

If you take a caveman baby and bring it to 2019 and raise it it could learn the square cube law. The same cannot be said of a dog.

Depends on what you mean when you say caveman, you probably couldn‘t teach the square cube law to some people living today. 

Fact is what allows us to be smart today is communication and society not some inherently bigger and better brain or something.

[Just Jim]

10 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

If you take a caveman baby and bring it to 2019 and raise it it could learn the square cube law. The same cannot be said of a dog.

I don't know... I like to think Humans are smart, but I'm looking over at my cat, and I have to seriously question who actually domesticated who??? 

[Gargamel]

48 minutes ago, Canopus said:

You also have to consider that all Human advancement come through century of improving on already existing ideas. If you release a kid into the wild without any human interaction and education, it won‘t just come up with the square cube law, it won‘t be much more than just another Animal.

This I can't agree with, as you are basically describing technology rather than intelligence. 

Take a look at Srinivasa Ramanujan.  While he might have had some basic education, he had exhausted any formal math education by the age of 11 or so.  He then proceeded to re-invent a lot of the mathematics that took centuries to build, and from there invented new types of math that are still being studied today as cutting edge. 

Education/Knowledge etc is made by a need.   If you are "wolf boy", your knowledge will extend to what keeps you alive, as that is all you have time for.  If you then compare a 20 year old wolf boy to an average 20 year old, and compare their survival skills in the wild, wolf boy will be far more knowledgeable in this aspect.  Average person does not have the need for these skills, just as wolf boy has no need for learning how to write a spread sheet. 

If there is a need for a certain type of knowledge, be it through environmental pressures or personal interest, then a single human can come up with great things, independent of society if needed.  If you have your basic needs (food, shelter, clothing, etc) accounted for, then some individuals can let their minds explore wherever they wish to go. 

[Canopus]

@Gargamel i might be a bit pessimistic but i don't think a single human with no prior knowledge of any kind society could come up with much more than any other great ape. 

40 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

If you have your basic needs (food, shelter, clothing, etc) accounted for, then some individuals can let their minds explore wherever they wish to go. 

But it took tens of thousand of years for those basic needs to be reliably covered. And is only possible through information transfer. I think we just got lucky when we developed the ability to speak.

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, Canopus said:

@Gargamel i might be a bit pessimistic but i don't think a single human with no prior knowledge of any kind society could come up with much more than any other great ape. 

But yet. somehow, somewhere in the past it was exactly what happened!

Human Knowledge grows on a logarithmic curve. When you don't know anything, it's easier to invent something new (I don't claiming it's easy, I'm claiming it's easier - or less hard). As time goes by and knowledge is accumulated, you need more and more effort and resources to manage to invent something new.

Our kids learn on primary school things that were invented by high scholars on the XV and XVII Centuries.

Keep in mind, however, that resources were way less available on that time - we had very few people educated enough and with sparing time enough to be committed on such endeavours. We have the perception of our knowledge growing faster nowadays because we have a really huge army of scientists available nowadays, with an incredibly huge pool of resources at their disposal.

So that logarithmic curve of the learning is multiplied by a exponential curve of human and material resources employed on the task.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Lisias
false cognates fixed.

[YNM]

I think a simple answer is that "well, depends".

 

It's simply a normal distribution. Outliers will exist, but for every outliers in one direction, there are outliers in the other direction.

 

So, don't feel too bad to yourself for being the freak.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by YNM

[Bill Phil]

4 hours ago, Canopus said:

@Gargamel i might be a bit pessimistic but i don't think a single human with no prior knowledge of any kind society could come up with much more than any other great ape. 

Of course.

It's taken tens of thousands of years to get here.

But notice that most of the knowledge we have now was discovered relatively recently. With the invention of the printing press it became possible to mass produce knowledge. Then each generation can build upon the knowledge of the previous generation. This process already existed to an extent but was greatly accelerated by the printing press.

A single individual won't come up with modern knowledge. But drop a few tens of thousands in an African savannah and come back a few tens of thousands of years later... and well, you just might get a global species that is still making new discoveries.

5 hours ago, Canopus said:

But it took tens of thousand of years for those basic needs to be reliably covered. And is only possible through information transfer. I think we just got lucky when we developed the ability to speak.

Well, some evidence suggests that quality of life before the agricultural revolution was actually pretty high. Obviously no air conditioning or anything, but if they had writing systems and tools to write with and all that there's reason to believe they could advance, though probably slowly.

[Shpaget]

3 hours ago, YNM said:

Outliers will exist, but for every outliers in one direction, there are outliers in the other direction.

Thankfully, in most cases, one side of that distribution fades into oblivion, while the other one makes a lasting impact.

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

But a Dog can't understand the square cube law or how computer's work, even if you could "speak dog" and teach it.

Cats can use a computer mouse. And the mousepad.

8 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

What if Humans are the same way? We can understand the square cube law, sure. We can devise ways to determine if planets are orbiting other stars, no problem. But we can't even CONCEIVE of... nebulous thing that I can't even conceive of because I'm a dumb Human.

Humans can operate with abstract things having no sensory representation, like the square cube law.
While other animals can deal only with things which they can "see" or recall "seen".

A human has an internal counterpart and internal dialog like between two arguing "hims/hers".
So, he can process information much faster and independently from what he "sees" at the moment.

A human has much more complicated speech and can remember it.
So, he can store and recall events and even thoughts, even thoughts of other people.

This causes a positive loopback of thinking.

8 hours ago, Just Jim said:

but I'm looking over at my cat, and I have to seriously question who actually domesticated who???

Felines are natural enemies of primates, and primates are natural food for the felines.
There is no reason for primates to be fond of felines.

So, we can make a conclusion that felines have developed the effective way of primates herding and usage.
As the local primates are too big to hunt them, make them bring food to you themselves.
Of course, a properly trained primate has a lot of other useful applications.

[Lisias]

55 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

So, we can make a conclusion that felines have developed the effective way of primates herding and usage.
As the local primates are too big to hunt them, make them bring food to you themselves.
Of course, a properly trained primate has a lot of other useful applications.

I will put my privileged brain to operate abstract concepts, engaging on dialogs between me and myself while recalling things I never saw but was told about while use my complex and rich speech on forum unapproved expressions about how this thing makes sense. Lots of sense.

(I prefer dogs, by the way. Mainly the ones that come back from space).

Edited April 14, 2019 by Lisias
My privileged brain is unable to avoid tyops!

[razark]

9 hours ago, Canopus said:

Fact is what allows us to be smart today is communication and society not some inherently bigger and better brain or something. 

We don't have to reinvent mathematics and philosophy and physics and chemistry every generation, because we are able to pass on what has already been learned in a usable format.  The speed at which technology advances seems to be related to the speed at which large amounts of information can be transmitted, and people's ability to access it.

A single person can do amazing things, but it is a society that makes advancement possible.

 

Something about standing on the shoulders of giants...

[YNM]

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

Thankfully, in most cases, one side of that distribution fades into oblivion, while the other one makes a lasting impact.

Nah, it just means there'll be new areas of outliers.

We haven't even talked about how each of us is unique... It's only a normal distribution if you consider one trait.

 

And eventually ? We'll all die and perish... But never lose hope for what the future may bring to the world.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by YNM

[lajoswinkler]

intelligence ≠ wisdom ≠ knowledgeability ≠ perceptiveness

 

These follow one another in a more or less close formation but they're not the same thing.

Now, group behaviour is something entirely different with different set of rules. The Internet is clearly revealing how profoundly stupid groups can become, especially if it's catalyzed on social networks. What used to happen over years by agitators on soapboxes, now happens over days.

[Nuke]

no

[splatn't™]

humans are simply dumb and individuals are incredibly smart
thats how ksp was made

[Triop]

Humans created KSP, all of it.

Planets, trees, oceans, mountains.

We must be gods, no doubt.

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, Triop said:

Humans created KSP, all of it.

Planets, trees, oceans, mountains.

We must be gods, no doubt.

"God is a kid with an ant farm. He's not planning anything." — John Constantine.