[New] Space Launch System / Orion Discussion Thread

[cubinator]

So will astronauts egress Orion after it's already on the boat?

[Minmus Taster]

3 hours ago, Beccab said:

 

That damage is worrying, is it meant to look like that? Also how long is it gonna take to refurbish that thing exactly?

[Beccab]

8 hours ago, cubinator said:

So will astronauts egress Orion after it's already on the boat?

That's likely, it's how Dragon does it and how Apollo did it too

[SunlitZelkova]

23 hours ago, Minmus Taster said:

That damage is worrying, is it meant to look like that? Also how long is it gonna take to refurbish that thing exactly?

I don’t think Artemis I is meant to be refurbished. It is a boilerplate in many aspects.

[Minmus Taster]

2 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

I don’t think Artemis I is meant to be refurbished. It is a boilerplate in many aspects.

I guess, in that case what happens to this capsule. And what about the full time capsules? So much uncertainly around how they're gonna operate this mess.

[Beccab]

8 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

I don’t think Artemis I is meant to be refurbished. It is a boilerplate in many aspects.

Its Orion avionics will, which has already proven to have been a pretty terrible decision because it forces Artemis II to be at the very least in May 2024 now

[Brotoro]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Beccab said:

That's likely, it's how Dragon does it and how Apollo did it too

No, the Apollo astronauts exited their capsule (once divers had put a flotation collar around the capsule) onto a life raft. They were  were then hoisted up to a helicopter which ferried then to the recovery carrier.

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, Brotoro said:

No, the Apollo astronauts exited their capsule (once divers had put a flotation collar around the capsule) onto a life raft. They were  were then hoisted up to a helicopter which ferried then to the recovery carrier.

Was the capsule recovered by an helicopter too? They used an carrier for recovery so it makes some sense. 
SpaceX has an dedicated ship for fishing it out of the water, an fishing boat. 

[miklkit]

I remember one capsule that landed in rough seas and flooded after the astronauts got out.  It was then too heavy for the helicopter to lift it and when its wheels were in the water they cut it loose.  Don't remember if it was Apollo or Gemini.

[Brotoro]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Was the capsule recovered by an helicopter too? They used an carrier for recovery so it makes some sense. 
SpaceX has an dedicated ship for fishing it out of the water, an fishing boat. 

As I recall, the carrier maneuvered alongside the capsule and then hauled it aboard with a crane. But I never actually saw that step happen on TV... I think it took quite a while to do, hence the desire to get the astronauts to the ship in a more timely manner.

[SunlitZelkova]

21 hours ago, Minmus Taster said:

I guess, in that case what happens to this capsule. And what about the full time capsules? So much uncertainly around how they're gonna operate this mess.

This one might be used for further ground testing and then perhaps end up in a museum after awhile.

I imagine refurbishment won’t be much more difficult than that of Dragon. The only thing that needs to be fully replaced is the heat shield.

Note that Artemis II is also not an all up spacecraft (it lacks a docking port) and thus will also take more time for refurbishment when compared with Artemis III or IV.

Orion’s reusability has been known for awhile. Here’s a space.com article from 2013 describing it- https://www.space.com/21541-nasa-orion-spacecraft-reusable.html

Things are only uncertain if you don’t bother to look into them.

7 hours ago, Brotoro said:

No, the Apollo astronauts exited their capsule (once divers had put a flotation collar around the capsule) onto a life raft. They were  were then hoisted up to a helicopter which ferried then to the recovery carrier.

 @cubinator we might see the method @Brotoro describes for Artemis II and some of the earlier lunar landings, but I don’t think we will see such a recovery method used once they start doing month long missions in the future. It will eventually start to look more like ISS recoveries as missions become longer, assuming lunar gravity is relatively just as detrimental to human health as microgravity is.

[Jacke]

12 hours ago, miklkit said:

I remember one capsule that landed in rough seas and flooded after the astronauts got out.  It was then too heavy for the helicopter to lift it and when its wheels were in the water they cut it loose.  Don't remember if it was Apollo or Gemini.

It was the 2nd crewed Mercury capsule, Liberty Bell 7.  The seas weren't that rough, but the explosive hatch blew by itself (likely from the external lanyard) and without a flotation collar the capsule filled with seawater.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury-Redstone_4#Splashdown

Edited December 16, 2022 by Jacke

[magnemoe]

On 12/15/2022 at 9:30 PM, Brotoro said:

As I recall, the carrier maneuvered alongside the capsule and then hauled it aboard with a crane. But I never actually saw that step happen on TV... I think it took quite a while to do, hence the desire to get the astronauts to the ship in a more timely manner.

Makes sense to have an crane for getting cargo off ships without an crane and recover other stuff like seaplanes or boats, at least for the WW 2 carriers. 

 

[insert_name]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Makes sense to have an crane for getting cargo off ships without an crane and recover other stuff like seaplanes or boats, at least for the WW 2 carriers. 

 

The crane was a separate vehicle on one of the elevators, I believe that the Essex class would be replenished by another ship, and didn't usually use seaplanes

[kerbiloid]

They can fish whales with this rod.

[magnemoe]

15 hours ago, insert_name said:

The crane was a separate vehicle on one of the elevators, I believe that the Essex class would be replenished by another ship, and didn't usually use seaplanes

Yes but back during WW 2 it was a lack of navy resupply ships. so having an crane to pick up supplies would be nice, and not launching seaplanes just recover for others. 
 

[tater]

USN CVs used underway replenishment as standard operating procedure during the war.

[sevenperforce]

On 12/13/2022 at 5:20 PM, Minmus Taster said:

That damage is worrying, is it meant to look like that? Also how long is it gonna take to refurbish that thing exactly?

I don't think there is any plan for any portion of Orion's heat shielding to be reusable.

I admit to some surprise in how toasty it got, particularly with respect to the backshell. I was under the impression that because the backshell only needs to reflect the heat incident on it from the plasma sheath, it would have a silvery metallic heat shield, not the same ablative material as the main shield. Then again, maybe this WAS a silvery metallic heat shield and it just gets precisely this fried every time.

[Minmus Taster]

That massive wait was worth this video;

 

[darthgently]

37 minutes ago, Minmus Taster said:

That massive wait was worth this video;

 

For me it wasn't so much the wait as the cost, lol.  

[tater]

Not a fan of that song (which I assume is what lines up, so I didn't play it).

[SunlitZelkova]

You fill in the left eye when you set a goal, and fill in the right one when it is complete.

[tater]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1b6kJQRBEtZCjQZ2QgncHPOOiufBNF-5oJ4wm67YEBHI/htmlview#

This link was posted on NSF.

It's projected vs actual costs for Orion/SLS/EGS (Exploration Ground Systems). It's a live chart, so you can view different things. Note that the projections made each year tend to flatten then drop, but the costs rise anyway. Orion seems to be somewhat flat, so SLS is dominating the cost growth, though EGS is also kinda wonky.

[tater]

https://spacenews.com/boeing-opens-sls-eus-production-facility/

Quote

After completing welding tests, Boeing will produce an EUS structural test article that will then be tested at the Marshall Space Flight Center. Steve Snell, Boeing EUS program manager, said that structural test article should be done in the first half of 2024.

That will be followed by the first flight version of the EUS, which will undergo static-fire tests at the Stennis Space Center like the Green Run test performed on the first SLS core stage. Those tests will use versions of the Aerojet Rocketdyne RL10 engine designed to operate at sea level.

woods170 at NSF made some good observations regarding EUS, thought I'd restate them (and they match OIG estimates). Boeing is starting on the test article soon in this new facility. Meaning it will take ~1 year to complete. Then they have to build a flight article after that one is done and tested—another year, so mid-2025. Then that needs to go for a firing at Stennis. Earliest an EUS is around is late 2025, or early 2026.

Currently that puts the first Block 1B in ~2027.

[tater]